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Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:55 pm
Lately I've been trawling through this guild and realised what exactly the problem was with my writing. The problem is, I speak to much in the passive voice, a habit I am finding hard to kick. With no examples of the active voice, and how to turn that around, I'm becoming concerned my writing sounds a little flat. For example, a scene where my goddess is being followed: Arani tripped, falling face first. Her hands immediately leapt out in front of her to break the fall. A menacing laugh surrounded the glade, haunting the trees and rushing through the wind. Shakily she got to her feet trying to locate the sound. She couldn't pinpoint it exactly, she just knew it was there. Nervously she attempted to regain her composure knowing no harm could come to her. Pain was an illusion, death doubly so.This is about two seconds worth of work, and it's usually something that would take most writers a whole page to write and establish the fact their characters are being followed. When I write, people tell me I lack the emotive voice with my characters, yet it sounds perfectly fine to me. Others tell me it's too passive, and I wonder how I can change that. So how would you go about banishing the passive voice into the darkness forever?
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Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:33 am
I think I am having similar problems. I keep reading over bits of my work thinking it's not dramatic enough where it should be.
I'm not sure of a good example at the moment because I keep re-writing chapter 1, and until I've got that and the other chapters I've done sorted out I can then move forward. Grr.
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Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:14 pm
When it comes to narrative writing, I don't tend to put too much stock in passive versus active voice. So many people harp on it and, IMHO, take it way too far. Hemingway used nothing but the active voice and I can't stand his writing. I liken it to eating a piece of styrofoam; it tastes boring and it's ultimately really unpleasant.
Active voice doesn't mean putting the characters in motion or engaging the reader in some form of active imagining. It refers more to how actively you relate an adjective to a noun or a noun to another noun and the like. It more has to do with grammar and structure than with feel and ambiance.
"The ball of crystal which belonged to the gypsy" is passive.
"The gypsy's crystal ball" is active.
One is far more concise than the other, but depending on the feel of what you are writing, you might use one or the other or something in between the two. There's a time and place for every way of writing something and active voice isn't necessarily always what is needed.
At least, that's my opinion. I've had it out with more than one English teacher over this. But if you go back and read old texts, a more passive voice was often used. Just read a few passages from the King James version of the Bible. Worshiping at the alter of the active voice seems to me to be a fairly modern development.
Basically, if you ask me, a piece of writing sounds right when it sounds right. Active or passive be damned.
Berz.
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Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:40 pm
Nice piece of advice Berz! Those were some neat examples as well...
My advice is this: have you tried writing in the first person? As if Arani herself is telling what's going on instead of some God who happens to know everything that's going on. I used to write like that a lot but I am finding that writing in the first person perspective is pretty cool too. 3nodding
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Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:33 am
The problem with first person is that you can only write from the perspective of the character. Unless the character is all-seeing and all-knowing like God, then he or she won't be able to see the bigger picture. All you're going to know is what that character knows.
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:57 am
I find that my first person narrative sounds childish. I prefer writing from third person omniscient, or third person restricted when I need to. If I wrote from first person, you'd end up with something like this: Step by step the sounds grew. The rustling in the bushes, the branches twitching, the sound of laughter surrounding the glade. Fear flooded me, until I remembered I couldn't be harmed. As a goddess, time and space didn't matter. Death was as far into the future as Time herself, not threatening me with a second glance. Yet I feared pain, being trapped in some lifeless cage for all eternity. I think all gods feared this, stopping what few of us who had brains from becoming dangerously overconfident. Yet that laughter sounded oddly familiar, like a friend, a brother, an equal. A god's laughter, and with the sinking of my stomach I knew who the laughter belonged to. The poisonous laughter of the Trickster, the only one who matched me, as I matched him.I'm not sure if this is any better than my third person, but if I write in first, I'll have a lot of characters to switch between and give original voices to. I write in multiple perspectives, and Arani is a very brief character in my book.
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:00 pm
That piece is written well, but I understand where you're coming from when you call that kind of POV childish. It is almost a cliché isn't it? Resounding laughter and the good character who looks extremely small and frightened. If it were in third person it's not going to appear that way from my guess.
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:53 pm
When I write adults, I expect them to sound, well, adult. I am twenty years old, dammit and I expect my writing to be improving, and not sound like I'm still an adolescent! That piece there sounds like it could be coming from a teenager, but while that particular woman is naive, she's not completely stupid. If you write first person, you need to sound like your character one hundred percent of the time. Mine usually changes character personality every second paragraph, killing the effect. Third person however I can attempt again. "Arani glided through the forest, bare feet barely touching the ground. Her eyes wandered through the trees she knew well. These were hers to mind, hers to tend along with all the surrounding plant-life. The familiar rustling of the bushes perked her ears up ever so slightly. Perhaps the young rabbits that lived nearby, never ceasing to live their lives the only way they knew how. What Arani construed as the cackling of branches as they swayed in the wind, the smell of fresh earth. It had rained the previous day, leaving the ground soft enough to walk on. She grinned, happier than she'd been in a long time. That's when she saw it. The flicker of a black robe rustling through the undergrowth. Her mind told her paranoia, but her brain told her this was someone familiar. A friend, a brother, an equal. Her mind spun wildly with questions. Why did he hide in the trees and not come out into the light? Did he fear her, was her power too strong? Her question was answered in another flash; he stood before her, wide and laughing. This was more than her equal. This was her balance, the other side she had been created to balance. More different than alike, they lived separate lives, each trying to do their duty to the world. Now, it seemed, that time had run it's course."I'm not sure how that sounds, or which perspective that is. I think it's third person restricted, with minor omniscient. To me this doesn't sound childish, but the other example does. I still want to improve my description, and I'm not sure how to keep the flow I start with throughout the entire story.
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:45 am
Your writing is mature and it doesn't sound like someone in their early teens at all. The first person perspective, however, does come across that way often and your previous example highlighted that. With the piece you've just added there, I can imagine it and shows how the character is feeling with regards to where she is. She's reminiscing.
It does seem third person restricted, but only because you're focusing on what she's thinking and feeling.
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:12 pm
What makes you think she's reminiscing? I reread what I wrote, and wonder exactly what I've done here to give this particular idea. Also, I need to have a clear idea on how to stick with this flow all the way through my story. Suddenly I'll add dialogue to a piece and it will sound flawed, and then change tone when going back to the description. The voice changes, and isn't exactly what I wanted to portray. How can you keep the flow in your work? I'm curious to find out. razz
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Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:40 am
Nyxix " Arani glided through the forest, bare feet barely touching the ground. Her eyes wandered through the trees she knew well. These were hers to mind, hers to tend along with all the surrounding plant-life. The familiar rustling of the bushes perked her ears up ever so slightly. Perhaps the young rabbits that lived nearby, never ceasing to live their lives the only way they knew how. What Arani construed as the cackling of branches as they swayed in the wind, the smell of fresh earth. It had rained the previous day, leaving the ground soft enough to walk on. She grinned, happier than she'd been in a long time. That's when she saw it. The flicker of a black robe rustling through the undergrowth. Her mind told her paranoia, but her brain told her this was someone familiar. A friend, a brother, an equal. Her mind spun wildly with questions. Why did he hide in the trees and not come out into the light? Did he fear her, was her power too strong? Her question was answered in another flash; he stood before her, wide and laughing. This was more than her equal. This was her balance, the other side she had been created to balance. More different than alike, they lived separate lives, each trying to do their duty to the world. Now, it seemed, that time had run it's course." The piece I highlighted in bold has an air of reminiscence about it to me. She knows those woods, the trees and the familiar rustling of the bushes. That's reminiscent of past experiences. As reminiscence is about the past, that's how I saw that particular part before she notices there's someone else there.
I also noticed something else. The bit I highlighted in italics. I think construed is the wrong word. Construed means how something can be perceived. In that sentence, there's nothing that word fits in with.
What Arani construed as the cackling of branches as they swayed in the wind (was what? Eg: what she perceived to be the cackling..or crackling of the branches was something else?), (then SOMETHING ???) the smell of fresh earth.
Now, how to I get my work to flow? Tough one that. I'm having problems with that at the moment. I'd written eight chapters until I realised there was absolutely no politics whatsoever and that certain characters were able to just go about their daily lives without so much as coming across a problem. The only hint of disorder came in chapter 3 and the character there has to warn others, but he's hundreds of miles from a place where others would actually listen to what he has to say.
So, I had to rethink everything. I think I've come up with a way of adding politics and conflict into it much earlier on (which is better to further the plotline) which meant that I had to start all over again in a way. I'm keeping big chunks of what I've already written, but I have to re-add them in different places to ensure that everything makes sense.
I just fear that I am not introducing characters in the right way because I want the ones I love to be loved and the ones I hate to be hated (or the ones I love to hate to be hated...yeah). It pains me to wonder if people aren't going to see particular characters the way I see them, because if readers don't perceive them that way there's absolutely no point to me having created them. Does that make sense? I'm a bit confused over it to be perfectly honest. I know what I mean but don't know if I'm conveying my point correctly. confused
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Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:34 pm
You have a point. Okay, so construed may be the wrong word there, but that was just me typing out something randomly in the post. That is going to be in the prologue, should the reader choose to read the prologue or not before going onto the actual first chapter of the book. I find that the WF has changed so much over the years that expecting decent advice from them is almost impossible - they are mostly teenagers boosting their egos by putting someone else down when I addressed them with a simple question. Sorry, I had to rant about that and I know it's nothing to do with this topic razz Moving on, when I introduce characters I don't describe them right away. I reveal pieces of what they look like throughout the dialogue and further passages. For Arani, I might describe her much later than say, Aislin because she's a more important character. Aislin is one of the few I actually describe right off the bat when another of my characters wakes up. Instead, I put them into the action right away and let them do their thing, showing their personalities rather than how they look. If you want more on some of my characters and plot it's in the plot sticky I just noticed yesterday razz Now when you're describing action, I usually do a reminiscing part first like what I've done with Arani. She's the goddess of the Earth, and very gullible and naive. She trusts easily, and she's really a sweetheart when you put her next to Aislin. For her to get the idea that she's being followed she needs to see some actual signs that she won't misinterpret as rabbits, or animal life, both her creations. Getting straight into it is difficult because I have to let you know what she's like first, and give you a small amount of information to work with. I'm still having trouble writing whole scenes and keeping them. I might just have to start writing and see where it takes me, rather than planning it out to the full like countless others keep suggesting sad
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Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:42 am
Oh, please feel free to moan about the WF. I think it's getting to be a big waste of time there anyway - despite it being the only forum I feel myself capable of posting in outside the guild. I just go there to look for people who are genuinely looking for help, and when I find something I can comment or give advice on I'll do so.
Regarding what you said about introducing characters though...
If an author introduces a character with their appearance immediately, I like it. If they introduce them along with their appearance over a few paragraphs with other pieces of description, I like it. What I HATE is when authors leave it so long that when you form your own image of them you're then suddenly faced with what they really look like. Robin Hobb did that in the Liveship Traders (I've not managed to read it all yet). She introduces the pirate, Kennit, and after several pages I developed an image of him. In the next chapter she then described his appearance and I was left thinking "WTF!?"
I give my character's physical descriptions almost immediately or during a description of what they're doing and where they are. I want readers to see them how I see them. I really don't want them seeing a face that isn't like the one I created them with. I think the active voice suits character description when there is action, and the passive voice suits it when there is calm.
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:26 am
When I joined Gaia in High School before I had this account, the writers forum and extended discussions were for just that. Now they're all the same, and the WF doubly so. I will whine about them - because they're more interested in keeping to the rules than actually helping out. The countless number of topics about actual writing get overlooked, so when some poor sod asks a question about plot building and characters it generally is along the lines of Mary Sues and Gary Stus, or whether or not their writing is genuinely good. It sucks, because it used to be a place where all writers could get help on their work. It shows me how much today's youth have devolved in intelligence - and I'm only twenty! Anyway, to my original thing. I need to definitely work on my action scenes a bit more as well, keeping the tone and active voice. It's hard work making sure you sound the same right the way through, state only relative points, and at the same time give the reader just enough information so that they can follow what's going on. Too much information is something like what Jean M. Auel wrote with the Clan of the Cave Bears, too little is something like hmm, most fanfictions out there that only communicate the action through dialogue, hence they believe they are the best authors in the world just because they have strung a few words together and posted it on the internet. If I wanted a piece of dialogue added to my action, and keep it in the active voice I might do something like this: Taurus eyed Aislin with great dislike. She wore the now familiar smirk across her face, taunting him. She'd taken everything from him, now she would suffer! With a lunge he launched his attack. She dodged in a spark of purple light sending him careening into a nearby tree.
"Fool," Aislin laughed, "What makes you think you are going to win?" "I deserve to win," Taurus snarled, sending an array of attacks at the goddess, "You don't, murderer."
Aislin just laughed at him, infuriating Taurus all the more. Before long Taurus had used up his entire arsenal. He'd sent spell after spell, punch after punch, kick after kick and all she'd done was summon a series of illusions. Now she stood before him, grinning as she clapped her hands together. The ground around the warriors shook as several more images of the goddess appeared. Now there was not one, but twelve goddesses, all the exact image of Aislin herselfHow can I improve this little snippet? I know there are a few mistakes in there, but at the moment I just can't see them. Any helpful advice on that account would be much appreciated.
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:58 am
That's probably better than some of my action scenes. I'm not using words effectively right now. I read things through thinking "I can do better than this, I HAVE done better than this". Right now though, something seems to be wrong with my thinking and I don't know why.
I never used to have difficulties in finding replacement words so I wasn't using the same ones all the while, but now I'm finding myself using similies too much, not enough metaphors and not being able to replace repetitive words with more intelligent ones.
I can't even describe a type of smile that well at the moment. Smile, smirk, grin....erm...any more? You know? It's the same with laughter. I need to get attitude in there and it's just being a pain. Like I said, no idea why. Could it be that my mind is preoccupied with other things? I've been so worried about my unemployment situation that it's made me depressed and full of stress. My mind just doesn't seem to be clear enough, and yet I am unable to put my writing down for a while. I feel more comfortable trying to continue and rework things rather than putting the whole lot down and saying "I'm going to leave it X number of days".
So, right now, I don't know how you can improve on that. I like it as it is actually, but when my mind is in better shape (hopefully over the weekend) I'll have another look and see if I can make any suggestions. ^_^'
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