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| I support... |
| Pregnancy Prevention and Abortion |
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80% |
[ 24 ] |
| Pregnancy Prevention but not Abortion |
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13% |
[ 4 ] |
| Abortion but not Pregnancy Prevention |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Neither |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| No Opinion |
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6% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 30 |
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 Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:36 pm
As a man I never felt like I had a right to have an opinion on abortion because, well, I don't have a v****a XD (As far as I know).
But I always thought that should I have a right to exercise my opinion, the opportunity be left but if someone were against it they teach their children never to allow themselves to get into that position. I have also always been a supporter of pregnancy prevention not only through the use of condoms but also through the use of pills in conjunction(since condoms have a much larger failure rate). Of course I'm a virgin so I probably don't really know what I'm talking about XD
I was thinking today about the issue of abortion, especially in the Wiccan community and thought it would be an interesting subject to discuss. Many texts as well as people will agree there is no more sacred privilege than to bear a child as a Wiccan. The Mother aspect of the Goddess is usually believed to be the most powerful (In terms of the full moon. Sometimes though people believe The Crone to be a more powerful aspect, but thats a discussion for another time). And the Great Rite is symbolic for a means by which to create life and a child. And of course, we must never forget that ours is a "fertility" religion.
Wicca is also a religion largely dominated by women, who usually lean more towards the pro-choice side of this argument too.
So what are your opinions on abortion and pregnancy prevention as a Wiccan? Obviously the first issue that comes to mind is "harm none" and certainly by "taking" or "preventing" a life you are harming it. It can also be argued though that an unwanted child would only be unhappy and to allow it to come into this world would only be cruel. Yet another argument could be that though you may extinguish the potential vessel of the child their soul will return to the next one when the mother becomes pregnant again. That one may be a stretch though.
Please contribute your thoughts on pregnancy prevention as well, since it is closely related and adds and extra dimension to the conversation. Also keep in mind that this is a potential hot topic and could lead to some heated debates. Please try and remain calm and not take offense should someone disagree with you or reply in an inappropriate manner. Likewise everyone should be careful to be as polite as possible in your replies as to not accidentally offend anyone.
Off you go!
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Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:54 pm
"With great power comes great responsibility."
I would have to say, as a woman, I am PRO-responsibility.
I think that if people are not financially and emotionally stable to have a child, that they should use birth control until the proper time (pills, condoms, etc.). I think that being responsible enough to do so should nullify the need for 'abortion'.
I personally do not believe that abortion should be used as a form of birth control. If you were too stupid to not take the pill or use a condom and got knocked up, you are purposefully snuffing a life with a lot of potential if you abort. There are plenty of people who are willing to give wonderful, loving homes to a child because for some reason or another, they can't have any/more. Take some responsibility for your actions. Abortion not only kills a potential person, it is mentally and emotionally scarring on a woman for the rest of her life.
And I say woman because once you spread your legs willingly, you've made the choice to grow up.
*gets off her soapbox muttering* xp
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Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:20 pm
I have a neutral opinion here at the moment, so I'll play devil's advocate. But for the most part I agree with you. Still, sometimes someone gets drunk or by some freak accident the birth control fails. What then?
I have several friends who have been in foster care (My best friend, as well as two very close friends. All of them are friends but were in seperate foster homes). In every case it was a terrible traumatic experience. Rarely is a family or individual willing to take a child simply from the kindness of their heart. In the case of one of my friends it was purely to make money. The foster parent was verbally abusive and sometimes physically. She strictly monitored how much food they ate and only bought them enough to survive (so she could keep the rest of the money that pays for their care for herself). One time my friend made a sandwich when he wasn't supposed to and got locked outside that night and had to find a place to sleep till morning. In the case of my other friends things were much the same, but not as extreme. In every case though they have described themselves as feeling unwanted, worthless, and terribly depressed and think of it as the worst time in their lives.
I just wanted to share this so that people remember that foster homes are not all wonderful positive little households where everyone loves you like you were their own child. In fact, I'd almost say those are the minority.
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Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:31 pm
My personal choice for myself is pro-life- I would never choose to have an abortion. If a pregnancy were unwanted, I would choose to have the child adopted.
That said; I am pro-choice. I think women should decide for themselves what their choice is. If someone choses to have an abortion, so be it. There are many different circumstances why that choice is made, and I would not presume to judge someone about thier choice- I haven't walked in their shoes.
I think condoms, the pill and other contraseptives are great. We are over-populated as it is; and if you dont want kids yet, or ever- prevention is more preferable in my mind than more abortions or more unwanted children.
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Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:28 pm
I'm with Korealia on this one.
I agree: you should never use abortion as a form of birth control - it should only be a last resort.
However, even though the Rede says "An it harm none, Do what ye will", my personal belief is, where harm is unavoidable, to minimise the damage. I'm seventeen - if I got pregnant, I know I wouldn't be able to care for a child - financially, and mentally. If I couldn't care for a child, I would have an abortion. That said, anyone who has sex, and doesn't use contraception almost deserves to be stuck with a child. It's the most basic form of karma, really. Actions have their consequences, and I wholly support contraception as well.
I also agree with Maura - I think that women should decide for themselves whether or not to keep a child - rather than society saying yes or no outright.
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Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:04 am
I'm pro-choice, but I don't think the issue of abortion is to be taken lightly.
Like the others here, I also believe that women (and men) should be responsible. If somebody takes birth control, combined with a condom, it's unlikely that they'll become pregnant. Of course, it's not possible for every woman to be on birth control (due to health, access, etc) but there are still other methods that can be combined and used properly.
I'm not saying that it's always easy. But that shouldn't be an excuse. I think that people should do their best to avoid the "oops I got drunk and had sex with a random guy" situation and, if they're going to be that way, they can still take other steps to prevent pregnancy.
I think that conception is quite amazing (although I see many things as such) and beautiful. Life is sacred. But we have to take into consideration other factors that influence if it's the best decision or not. Will the child have a healthy mother, so that when they're born they don't have birth defects and other health issues? Will that person be able to raise them well, or find somebody else that can? Will they receive the right attention, food, shelter, social opportunities, etc?
Adoption sounds like a solution, but I don't think that it always is. Honestly, I think it would be better for the mother to meet a family while they're pregnant and then get to know them before the family adopts the child. This is assuming that the family is stable and all. I know that isn't always possible, but for myself personally, I wouldn't be able to trust leaving my baby at an adoption center. I would want to know that they'll be going to the best parents possible, and I would like the opportunity to see them periodically.
Of course, that's in a perfect situation. Many people don't have that. Many people are going to decide that they want to have an abortion. And the law isn't going to necessarily stop them. It doesn't matter if it's legal or not, people will still have back street abortions. Which is, in my opinion, probably a lot worse. Unhealthy for the mother and worse for the baby if it's already started to develop. If we keep the option of going to a clinic for them, and make it available, then it won't happen as often. But clinics should first and foremost give information and resources for preventing pregnancy in the first place. It should be stressed.
And also, I think that if someone is going to have an abortion, it should be as soon as possible. The sooner, the better. After a certain amount of time and growth, I don't think it should be done. Not when the child can feel pain...
Overall, abortion makes me sad, because pregnancy is sacred, pregnant women make me really happy and remind me of the Goddess. lol. I think it's a big decision that needs to be weighed out.
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Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:12 am
In the rite of the Goddess, it says that all acts of love and kindness are her rituals, sex obviously included. Therefore, if we are not asked to abstain, but to go forward in love, then we must be responsible for ourselves and our actions. This includes deterring an unwanted pregnancy through the appropriate use of birth control methods.
One must remember that "An harm none" includes yourself. Meaning that if it would be harmful to keep an unwanted pregnancy, then you have the right to self-preservation. As many have said, abortion is not a form of birth control in the sense that it doesn't prevent a pregnancy, it meerly prevents a child from being born into a bad situation.
The Catholic Church, although they have recanted this position in recent years, has said that the soul does not enter the child until the moment of "quickening," that is, when the mother first feels the child move. The main debate in abortion is whether or not it is murder. From this we must first determine when a fetus becomes something that we would term human -- when it could viably live outside the womb, when it first moves, or at the moment of conception. That particular debate has so many sides that it is impossible to make sense of it all, except perhaps for one's self.
In my opinion, abortion is an option for pregnancies that would result in the emotional or physical damage of a life, be it the child's or the parent's. I deplore the use of the procedure to clean up one's mess; if you didn't want to get pregnant, you could've prevented it, but you didn't and now you're going to abort, despite the fact that you could conceivably care for the child. No, that stuff doesn't fly with me. But women whose lives are in danger from the children they carry, women who were raped and became pregnant as a result, or women who carry fetuses that are irretrievably damaged by congenital defects; I support their right to abort a pregnancy that would harm them, and ultimately, the child as well.
As for birth control, God bless it. I have no desire to be celibate and I certainly have no desire to become a parent just yet. I am being responsible for myself and my actions, nothing about that contradicts my religious beliefs, far as I can tell.
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Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:26 am
I must say, I agree with most of the views posted here, and I find it appaling that so many women abuse abortion and use it like birth control. Like many here, I believe that it should be used only in the most severe circumstances, like if the baby would be born with terrible defects, or if all other precautions have failed.
To an extent, though, I am both pro-choice and pro-life. I might not like the choice, but I will defend women's choice to make it.
Birth control, I think, is a wonderful development. It prevents an unwanted baby being born into unfavourable circumstances. I, for example, am not ready yet to be a parent. For one thing, we are financially unsettled. For another, my medical problems would make it very hard for me at this point to carry a baby successfully. I think I'd very seriously contemplate suicide if I miscarried, simply because I'm in the worst possible place mentally. And even if I did manage to carry and deliver the baby, I know I'd be in no fit state to take care of it.
Don't get me wrong, I do want kids one day. Just not yet.
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Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:38 am
This is an article I wrote some years ago. It deals with more than just abortion and birth control, but I kept it complete because I felt it would be a better way to understand why I think the way I do. Quote: Porgy loves Bess, Bianca loves Mick, And everybody knows Liz loves d**k! ~ "Sex" by The Fools Now that I have your attention... This essay contains my thoughts and opinions about others' thoughts and opinions regarding such topics as sex, sex education, homosexuality, and abortion. Once upon a time these issues weren't, well, issues, but ever since the day we supposedly lowered our moral standard they have become hot topics for discussion. First of all, I'd like to make it perfectly clear that I think sex is a good thing. And I'm not just saying that because I've been having it for more years than my parents would care to know about. Sex, regardless of who or what is doing it, is how we keep life on this planet. I don't see anything bad or shameful about that, but if you do well then don't do it! Now, I won't say there aren't things out there that make me squeamish, because there are. But I'm not going around telling other people they can't do what feels good to them, just because I don't agree with it. As long as you're not hurting anyone (including yourself), then it's just fine with me. Sex Education in schools. I do not have a problem with this. In fact, I think the earlier the better. Kids need to learn what their bodies are capable of. They need to know what's out there and how it affects them. They have to be made aware of the possible consequences of their actions. Keeping this information from them is not going to keep them from having sex. It is, however, going to keep them from making intelligent decisions about sex. This does not mean that Sex Education in school should replace parental responsibility. Instead the two should compliment each other. I try to answer my kids questions whenever they have them, and enlighten them whenever they seem to need it. It is a day to day process. When I was in highschool I had a friend who was gay. He would often talk about getting a partial sex change and I once ran into him hanging out on the streets selling himself. While his private life made me rather uncomfortable at the time, and peer pressure was responsible for a few acts of stupidity on my behalf, but I still managed to keep him as a friend up until he disappeared. What negativity I might have felt toward homosexuality back in school was blasted away during my stint at a video store in Cambridge a few years later. It's pretty damn hard to dislike someone because of their sexual preference when half your co-workers are either gay or bi. First you learn to live with them, then you realize they're good people. Not too long ago the (then) Governor of Massachusetts started insisting we needed to change the state constitution to make it clear that gay marriages were wrong. She and her followers stated that we needed to preserve the sanctity of marriage, claiming that such a bond was meant for couples in order to have children. Okay, so why are all these hetro couples who are unable to have children being allowed to marry? Hey, let's be consistent here, folks. Knowing a set of twins who are both gay, I've long since come to the conclusion that homosexuality is genetic. I'd even go as far as saying that the Gods intended it to be one of their more positive forms of population control. Having couples who don't reproduce is much nicer than having to wipe out half the world with a plague. Sure, this country was founded on good, clean, wholesome values, but has anyone stopped to think about who had the country before it was founded? I don't know how our Native American friends feel about gays, but I'm sure they probably aren't anywhere near as tight-assed as the Puritans where. And speaking of which, didn't these people come to this country to flee from religious persecution? Nice to know we're not being hypocritical. As I already mentioned I believe the Gods created a system of checks and balances to keep the human population under control. Over the years, we've managed to totally trash that system. Homosexuality has become a sin, we are now "immune" to many illnesses that where once deadly, and we can now protect ourselves from most of our predators. Too bad there are still too many clueless people out there who don't realize that we no longer need to mass produce offspring. I'm sure I can't be only one to see the signs of our Gods going to extremes to bail our asses out of the messes we've created. Why do you think we have AIDS? Sorry, but "to cleanse our world of those sinners" is not the correct answer. If AIDS isn't the biggest wake up call to the overpopulation problem, I don't know what is. AIDS is a plague. A special plague. While it's main job, like most plagues, is to wipe out as many people as possible, it also has the purpose of population control. See, if folks spent more time protecting themselves instead of whining for a cure or vaccine, we'd already be making strides in eradicating this disease. And through abstinence and safe sex, we can also put a dent in overpopulation. Violence is also a sign. Science has shown us that as the world becomes more crowded people become more violent. It's just a simple fact of self preservation. We haven't completely eliminated our predators; we have just forgotten about ourselves. And then there's infertility and sterility. I so want to b***h slap those who claim abortion is "playing god", but look the other way when a woman is taking fertility drugs. I can almost hear WuFei (Gundam Wing) screaming, "Injustice!" If you are not able to have kids on your own, then consider adoption. Don't be selfish when there are millions of children out there looking to become a part of a family. Don't bash those who are pro-choice. Remember: Not everyone follows the same belief system you do. In fact, abortion predates Judeo-Christian beliefs, so stop riding the backs of those who think differently. Until the day when there's a form of birth control that is 100% effective, and is available to everyone, then abortion should be kept legal (and covered by health insurance). And while we're at it birth control should be covered by all health insurance plans. *glares at George "Dubbya" Bush*. Alrighty now, I think I've covered everything I wanted to say. So let's sum up: Sex is good. It's just us that are bad. surprised ) But we can become better people by being open minded and responsible. You are not the only person on this planet; we are not the only species. Start looking at the big picture. Yes, it is rather confrontational, but I hope we can get some good discussion out of it.
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Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:48 am
Kyou Nitsune I have a neutral opinion here at the moment, so I'll play devil's advocate. But for the most part I agree with you. Still, sometimes someone gets drunk or by some freak accident the birth control fails. What then? I would hope that they would be smart enough to choose private adoptions instead of trying to give their kid up to the state. evil Most people who are willing to adopt your child will even go as so far as to pay for the entire thing, wanting to go to doctor's appointments and the like. There are even some companies which help pregnant women find suitable, loving homes for their children. You guys have also brought up the idea of youth/financially unstable/rape. Personally.... I wouldn't abort either, even if I was raped. It wasn't the child's fault. crying But I bet that someone could give a child a good home beyond that stigma.
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Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:12 pm
Having a best friend who bless her, gets pregnant if the wind blows the wrong way...I have to be pro-choice. (she got pregnant using spermicide and condoms - more than once) I definitely think it is a personal choice, and while I would never have one - I will always defend a woman's right to choose. If a woman cannot decide for herself what is best, then no one else can either.
Having said that, if you are mature enough to have sex...then you should be mature enough to go out and get protection, and USE IT!!! Guys will tell you all the time that they don't like the way a condom feels - tell them they will like the feeling of changing poopy diapers at 3am even less. I am not a big supporter of the pill, if only because it does really weird things to a woman's body. The stuff that is out there today, where you don't get your period for months at a time - that is not a good thing. Woman's bodies are delicately balanced, and messing around with that is asking for trouble. But there are many other methods out there that can be safely used that there is no excuse not to use something.
...lecture over biggrin
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Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:11 pm
I am 100% pro choice. I could never personally have an abortion, but I would never be so pretentious as to deny a woman her right to decide how to live.
There is NO WAY someone else can tell a woman how to live her life or assume anything about her based on her pregnancy status. There are far too many stereotypes and unfounded assumptions concerning pregnancy and abortion. Unless every person who is pro life chooses to take on every unaborted child into their lives and homes, they have no business preaching at people. This kind of issue is complicated and should never be so simplified into one dichotomy.
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Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:40 am
*PRO-choice.
*ABORTION IS NOT A FORM OF BIRTH CONTROL.
Sorry, no one can convince me otherwise. Yes, women should have a right to choose - please weigh ALL options. Don't just abort because a kid would 'cramp your lifestyle'. I don't diss people for their choices (I MAKE NO JUGDGEMENTS! scream ), I've had people near me that have felt the necessity to abort. But understand...it really can leave emotional and physical scars. I've watched it, it's not pretty. sad
(If you're using spermicide AND condoms, I suggest storing them in a COOL, DRY PLACE and check for sabotage. evil Dude, it's in the movies. eek Pyscho wants to keep the lover - pops holes in condoms with pinhole. Something to think about. sweatdrop )
ANYWHO.....
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Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:20 am
Wow, its really interesting to see how similar everyone's opinions are. But then again that may be similar to the overall opinion of the country, I'm not sure. But few of you have touched on how this issue effects you as a Wiccan (except Faeryselene who, as always, rocks my socks). Do you feel that your perspective of sexuality and child bearing are significantly influenced by our religion?
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Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:22 pm
Haha, thanks >.>
Primarily, my perspective on it is influenced by my beliefs and spirituality, and then religion. But the short answer is yes. Even though I think the option should be available for others, I don't think that I could ever abort. Not only would it be harmful to myself and the child, but I also feel that it would in some ways be detrimental my relationship with the Goddess, the Earth, the calling of Nature...which every day I feel the need to be attuned with as much as possible (and I do)...it would cause a LOT of spiritual and emotional trauma for me. It would be like giving Her and the God a b***h slap in the face in return for the gift and sacredness of life...that's probably not the right metaphor but I can't think of anything better at the moment.
The only way I would have an abortion is if my health (due to reasons that weren't my fault) was too poor to have a healthy baby, and I might also consider it if the child was to have a severe mental illness. Not that they shouldn't be given a chance, but I don't think that living life as a vegetable would be worth it.
Sometimes I have dreams where I'm pregnant, and in them I'm always very happy. No, I'm not having a baby any time soon, and when I do I only want one or two. but as I was saying before, when I see a pregnant women, they do seem like a mother Goddess to me, and this goes for other animals too...I think that they are very beautiful...I also think that sex (I mean that in a broad way) and growth and nourishment is also beautiful...
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