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 Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:25 am
I think that the largest cause of wars is the flawed human nature.
All humans are, by instinct, greedy. (I don't want to offend anyone, I know that people can and do control the instincts)
When flawed humans gain power, they realize they can use the power to fuel their greed.
As it's easier to steal one man's work than to work for your own, wars start, these being conquest wars for land and country's resources.
Next comes superstition, and the ease that most people feel in falling into a position of superiority.
The superiority manifests itself in several forms: ethnocentrism, religious superiority, race superiority, gender, and just about any trait you can think of, people take advantage of, to make themselves feel better.
When these deranged zealots come in to power, some use people's need to feel superior to accomplish their own means(ironically, usually greed), or for a select few, feel that they are better, such as Hitler and the Holocaust. The Germans felt weak and defeated after WWI and economic depression brought by the Treaty of Versailles, so a purging of the country made them feel as if they were superior, and Hitler took advantage of that to stir them into action.
Another is a lack of empathy, mainly of leaders and those who call for war.
First, those who will be hurt, especially civilians, and even soldiers, are rarely or never considered.
Next, a leader partakes in no fighting, and has no personal loss in the war, and can only gain. I agree with Kat from All Quiet on the Western Front; put all the leaders in a ring, and have them fight it out with clubs.
Finally, and possibly the saddest, is plain impatience. Instead of years of negotiation, and setting up exchanges of ideas, and encouraging peace, war is a quicker, more certain alternative, so much the better for larger "bullying" countries.
Instead of making a compromise, and maybe ceding some benefits to the opposing country, its easier for a leader to call for war.
That, I suppose, is my thesis on the cause of war.
War seemingly could only be ended by the perfection of humanity, and the conversion of a vice driven world, to a virtuous paradise. Sadly, this is a next to impossible dream, and the easiest way to avoid war is for the citizens who have virtue to force the government to abandon thought of war.
Tell your senators people. wink
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Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:04 pm
Quote: War seemingly could only be ended by the perfection of humanity, and the conversion of a vice driven world, to a virtuous paradise. Sadly, this is a next to impossible dream, and the easiest way to avoid war is for the citizens who have virtue to force the government to abandon thought of war. Ever read the BOOK "Starship Troopers" by Robert Hienlen? The main character Rico, says in the book, "Yeah I'd love to lay my sword down by the river Jordan and not make war no more. I'd love peace for all of man. But the day that happens is the day a Jersey Cow trades his spots with a Jaguar." I hold that true. War isa terrible yet at times nessecary thing (such as fighting to save a race of people in threat of ethnocentric extermination) and I believe that a truely justified revolution against a tyrannical and unjust opressor (be it foriegn or domestic) is probably the MAIN war that we should be first to consider as a PEOPLE and not as a herd of sheep under a government. I'm sorry I have very little trust in the government, politicians or anyone in power anymore. I see the lobbyists who line the Senators pockets you speak of with gold to turn a blind eye on the people who rightfully elected them. Hell even the ******** electorial college in the United States is ******** beyond all repair. Face it. America, like Rome, is a plutocracy. You have to have a minimum of 20,000 dollars to be put on the ballot in any Presidential election. And that's the Ballots that are all over the country. Not just one. So greed as you spoke of is a major thing in this. Cheney has loads of stock in Haliburton who was contracted by the US government to work in Iraq. Iraq in itself is a very hard subject for me because I want to support the troops fullheartedly but I hear about the Iraqis and I have a hard time not seeing my Great Grandfather Duffy fighting against the British in the Irish Revolution in the twenties and seeing his motives being very much the same as a young man in Baghdad. The causes for the war is a lie, the fat cats up top make loads of cash off of the blood of Iraqi civilians and American soldiers (as well as our allies) and we can't get out because it would be contray to "american interests". The Bush Doctrine of fighting terror wherever it rears it's head is part of a bigger doctrine that was written up by Cheney (then the Secretary of State for Bush I) when the Berlin Wall fell and the US was left as the main power in the world. It was quite simply, "SHow the world who's boss". It's a very gung ho and costly doctrine for a foriegn policy that makes me wonder about the future of this country because it makes everyone seem to despise us. Iraq has lost us the War on Terror and the hearts of the people of the world and I'll definately say that it's lost the patriotism of many good Americans. I have faith no longer in America because it is not what the founding fathers said it was supposed to be. From the begining of the KOrean War we have turned into the most militaristic, ignorant, and powerful country in the world. And all I can see to come of it is the total collapse of the USA, just as Rome was peppered away by too many small wars against too many better willed and more dilligent peoples.
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Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:15 pm
The senator statement was meant to be a little ironic, because they are some of the people in the power, and like you said, getting paid by lobbyists.
One of the problems with America is that most people consider little beyond single goals or parties for elections. Presidential elections need to be more based on what a person will do, not their affiliations. The party system needs to be abolished, along with paying for campaigning. They should have government sponsored time, for all candidates to express their views, not commercials with mud slinging campaigns, that only means that you're *slightly* better than your opponent in one case.
Yet this leads back to people. Most are a bunch of mindless sheep, following what someone, somewhere is telling them to do, like government parties, religious organizations, media, and what have you. As I said before, the reasons for war are inherently within people.
You did quite a bashing of the current government, but what generally do you think they do wrong? I'm not asking for reasons why the current regime sucks, I could ask anyone that, but as a person interested in history, why do you think wars are actually fought, and why haven't we learned? The people, or maybe the systems used by the people? Do you have any proposed solutions, possible better than war?
I do cede the point to you that there are rightly guided wars, such as poor governments, but the line blurs heavily when people think of only their own interests, and for every just war, there are far too many unjust ones.
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Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:35 pm
Well prehaps bringing in Henry Kissenger (the Secretary of State during Vietnam) REGULARLY for advice on how to fight Iraq. I'm sorry that's the worse possible thing you could do if You're trying to prevent another Vietnam.
I'll be perfectly honest I was blind to see how it was similar but the way that they were being fought but there are a lot of similarities. I've heard about officers giving "free fire" orders and on multiple completely seperate occasions. Something that we did in Vietnam.
The current administration( I will say they did well on fighting a war this way) has definately tightened and strengthened their propaganda and influnce over what the media reports. Independant media doesn't exsist. Donald Rumsfeld (who just untill recently was still an active memeber at the Pentagon) is on the board of directors on the Chicago Tribune. That in turn owns large shares in CBS and ABC. Fox News is owned by a Republican Senator.
Well in honesty (for historical purposes) let's lookat ancient Rome for comparisons.
America has followed it almost to the letter. We had a Civil War. Rome had a Civil War. God bless Lincoln but dear God he put more screws into the Constitution than Bush has even. Not to mention that the Reformation and military occupation of the South (something we should learn from actually since that took about 15 years to completely rebuild the South as we must do with Iraq). Lincoln, like Ceasar, came out as the victor, gained power, and his legacy brought more military likeness into the US.
There were wars for decades out west against the Indians. Wars that could be compared to the Romans Fighting the Gauls.
Then peace for about a decade and the Spanish American war came about, more imperialistic intrests and spreads and 4 year long jungle war against Phillipino insurgents and then small wars against Poncho Villa as a precursor to America's involvement in the Great War. That was very small but it did bring the United States onto the world stage like never before. After that there was peace, Depression and the outbreak of World War II. OUt of World War two with the rest of the world powers in ruins, Russia feeling subjecated, came the military industrial complex.
Now came the long series of small but usually costly wars that could be compared to Rome's borders being overstretched, battered and not able to hold against the "barbarian hordes". After this all had happened we're brought to the end of the Soviet Empire and leaving us with a surplus of war supplies and no one to use it against except upstart countries like Iraq and Afghanistan.
We are on the road to ruin and if it isn't stopped soon, the United States of America will be likened to Rome, burned to the ground from within, and without.
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Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:13 pm
Those are valid points, but I don't think I phrased it right. I meant why are wars fought as humans, not as a country. Just like Rome, the US came, and in all probability, will go, but people won't change, so what do you think needs to change that causes us to fight wars?
I wouldn't say there isn't any free press, though. I've heard more than enough anti-war from news networks. Also, the internet. For example, what you just did, is free media, anyone can access others people's opinions on the internet. Theres a database called.... opposing viewpoints, I believe with a lot of opinionated articles, but it's only accessible through a school library. Regardless, it is accessible to students, most whom are easy to sway, and I think that although we're going through a time like Vietnam, the next generation seems quite anxious to be different.
I suppose a good example is one of my AP classes... there is one openly conservative kid... and he's made fun of by everyone.... including the teacher. Most likely, people in AP history and global classes will be the ones to get into politics. My point is, our country will be in the hands of today's students soon, and unlike Rome, our government is more adaptable to change, because most people come into power by differing from an unsuccessful regime. The US has a better chance than Rome in that regard, but if we get dominated by some other country that we annoy (we piss off enough, and the government doesn't change that fast), the US will probably end. But nearly definitely, that will not happen in our lifetimes. Despite all of its flaws, the US does a lot of good, but frequently overdoes it, and messes things up.
All I can really say for Iraq was that it was a well intentioned failure. While we may have saved a lot from dying, only slightly less die today, and its going to be a rough road ahead for Iraq, and for the rest of the world. But looking at the larger picture, Saddam Hussein would be doing worse than us, because he didn't even attempt to change things, and only made conditions worse. We differ from Rome in that regard too, we actually try to assist some countries, Rome was more of a conquest empire, and drew hate as such.
Lastly, I forgot to include self-righteousness in the first post. Like you said with people's wars, it's all too easy to think you're right and fight a war over it. This is pertinent with the US, because that's essentially exactly what we do with democracy, corporations, and most of our other defective institutions.
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Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:04 am
Well you do make some good points I will say that much.
But I'd also like to say you've gotten pretty much every speculation up there. At times there's just sheer boredom that makes it up. Mob Mentality takes hold and then try and find some "wrong" to "right".
Fear is a big one. And fear and demonization of an opposed group of people can bring some of the most climactic and hateful types of wars.
Difference in viewpoints, sometimes political (see the Eastern Front and the American Civil War, American Revolution in the Southern theater ) can make even more hate filled and bloody (usually against innocents in a few of those cases) wars.
There are a lot of things. But they don't all make them right.
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Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:05 am
It's a necessary evil that won't end any time soon. As you've said humans are greedy and that's been proven time and again. Sometimes it comes down to economy. War boosts the economy. During WWII production of tanks and other war material pulled the U.S and other developed nations out of the Great Depression.
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Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:00 am
Gespenster It's a necessary evil that won't end any time soon. As you've said humans are greedy and that's been proven time and again. Sometimes it comes down to economy. War boosts the economy. During WWII production of tanks and other war material pulled the U.S and other developed nations out of the Great Depression. It'll NEVER end. Ever hear the saying "can't teach an old dog new tricks?" It's human nature to fight over things. That's how we survived before civilization popped up. Even then, that's how civilization has survived. Fight over territory that had the water, farm land, etc. Can't change human nature. It's what makes us human.
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Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:33 am
I always thought it was those 93 cents worth of chemicals. lol I know it will never end. war is what builds and destroys nations. But were lucky WWIII hasn't happened yet.
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Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:55 pm
From what I have learned about wars so far, is that in some cases it is for gained power or land. It's not just out of the blue that two countries (or more) decide to go to war. Anybody who thinks that needs a reality check.
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