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 Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:25 am
All I seem to hear from alot Pro-Choicers now a day say and think we have no logic or facts to our debate and stand and I see alot of generalisations and stereo-types like-
we are anti-women (even though I am one)
we're all religious like christians and catholics (even though i'm agnostic)
we are against sex before marriage and against birth control (not even one is like that, depends one the persons view, nothing to do with being pro-life)
The list goes on and on.
It's time I see some actual facts and logic for once from both sides. I'm trying to be nice, respectful and understand their side but they make it impossible at times (which is why I joined this guild instead).
If they want us to respect them then they should stop the bashing and respect us (even if we disagree).
Some of the "facts" is also up for debate since nobody really knows when a fetus can feel pain and I know that abortion can have just as much risk (if not more so, depending on the type that is preformed) as pregnany.
A women can have complication or die from an abortion (infections,ect...), just like a woman can have a complication during pregnancy and die in child birth.
Complications may not happen but neither go without risks.
I know that according to this medical dictionary an embryo begins four days after fertilization and around three to eight the organ systems develop weeks starts show human form (I believe they become a fetus at week eight or nine).
See these are real facts from medical doctors themselves (and they say that we use no facts and that a fetus is just a lump of tissue). The dictionary is "Taber's Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary"
So any comments or facts to prove them wrong?
Topic-
facts
logic
stereotypes
rants
debates
Religion
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:28 am
I've told them again and again:
I'm an atheist.
I have nothing against birth control.
I have no problem with extramarital sex; I wish I were having more of it.
I refuse to believe that no one has ever taken a real, unedited photo of an abortion. You cannot tell me that all abortion pictures are faked. Surely someone, somewhere, surely some pro-choicer would have taken a picture of a genuine aborted fetus, if only to counteract these alleged multitudes of fake photos.
Do not argue statistics with me. I have seen and analyzed, as a sociology major who got an A in statistics, REAL data on abortion rates, reasons and complications from PRO-CHOICE sources. Sources biased AGAINST me, intentionally, to counteract any bias I might have.
Do not argue fetal development with me. I triple-check any statements I make about fetal development with OBSTETRICS TEXTBOOKS. Not bible-based textbooks from Bob Jones University. Specialty standard, peer reviewed, prestige earned texts approved by the best medical schools on the planet.
I don't argue from religion, I don't argue that OMG BAYBEEZ R PWECIOUS Y U WANT 2 SALT THEM LIEK SLUGS AN VACUUM THERE HEDZ!?!? crying crying crying
I DON'T EVEN LIKE BABIES.
...and I have a Taber's too. Picked it up at a library sale for a dollar. 3nodding It's kinda sorta 20 years old, but I'm poor... sad
I do get access to a bunch of textbooks and references online, though.
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:36 am
I'm apparently a misogynistic Seventh Day Adventist.
If I hate women so much why would I want to marry one? Why would I prefer to have a daughter than a son if given the choice?
How does a person's religious outlook even factor into the conversation if I don't use the Bible when speaking to those who are pro-choice?
And so what if I'm against sex before marriage? I'm not against birth control. I'm just against polygamous sex because it provides a means to spread STD's, even with protection it's not always 100% effective.
I guess I can't be against STD's right? People have to have the right and choice to put themselves at risk for STD's =].
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:24 am
Certain views are more about personal beliefs and morals.
I think what they are really worried about is us stopping them from having their fun I guess and forcing them to have babies even if they don't want them and I guess that's were the argument of religion comes in since some peoples views do come religion though not always.
And I believe Catholics are supposed to not use birth control but I don't know too much about Catholics though.
And STD's are horrible, there is nothing wrong with wanting to prevent it.
The Taber's I have dictionary isn't that old but the other day I found a Gray's Anatomy book that is really old (It must of belonged to my mom's ex-husband long before I was even born, I think he's a doctor).
I also have a CPT and an ICD.9.CM (I'm thinking about becoming a medical coder and maybe become a nurse some day).
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:56 pm
Seventh Day Adventists are not Catholics. sweatdrop And yes, the Catholic Church teaches against artificial birth control, but that doesn't necessarily mean that individual Catholics agree with this teaching.
OP response; All my best friends are women, and in fact I don't have very many male friends (Maybe I shouldn't admit that? sweatdrop ). I actually tend to favor women over men in general, because that's just the way I am.
I am Catholic again, although not a very good one. sweatdrop It's going to take me a while to get back into it fully, I think. But nevertheless, my faith has nothing to do with my debate or my stance on this issue, as I do not construct my political opinions from my religious beliefs. Otherwise I wouldn't be supportive of Gay marriage, or contraceptives.
I am absolutely not against pre-marital sex, only irresponsible, promiscuous sex. And I believe that anyone who doesn't have religious reasons for not using BC should use BC when don't want to get pregnant. :shrug: There's really no other good reason not to, and it prevents a lot of sorrow, no matter which side of the issue you are on.
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:54 pm
sachiko_sohma Certain views are more about personal beliefs and morals. I think what they are really worried about is us stopping them from having their fun I guess and forcing them to have babies even if they don't want them and I guess that's were the argument of religion comes in since some peoples views do come religion though not always. And I believe Catholics are supposed to not use birth control but I don't know too much about Catholics though. And STD's are horrible, there is nothing wrong with wanting to prevent it. The Taber's I have dictionary isn't that old but the other day I found a Gray's Anatomy book that is really old (It must of belonged to my mom's ex-husband long before I was even born, I think he's a doctor). I also have a CPT and an ICD.9.CM (I'm thinking about becoming a medical coder and maybe become a nurse some day). 2 Months away from being a Nurse for me. STD's are some of the most horrible things people do not think about when they have sex. When you have sex with someone, you have it with all the previous people they've also slept with, but I think most people here already know that. The only time I ever use the Bible in a debate is if the other person claims to be a Bible believing Christian. Other than that, it's a little pointless, just like it'd be pointless to use secular logic or "science" on me.
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:00 pm
I.Am Seventh Day Adventists are not Catholics. sweatdrop And yes, the Catholic Church teaches against artificial birth control, but that doesn't necessarily mean that individual Catholics agree with this teaching. OP response; All my best friends are women, and in fact I don't have very many male friends (Maybe I shouldn't admit that? sweatdrop ). I actually tend to favor women over men in general, because that's just the way I am. I am Catholic again, although not a very good one. sweatdrop It's going to take me a while to get back into it fully, I think. But nevertheless, my faith has nothing to do with my debate or my stance on this issue, as I do not construct my political opinions from my religious beliefs. Otherwise I wouldn't be supportive of Gay marriage, or contraceptives. I am absolutely not against pre-marital sex, only irresponsible, promiscuous sex. And I believe that anyone who doesn't have religious reasons for not using BC should use BC when don't want to get pregnant. :shrug: There's really no other good reason not to, and it prevents a lot of sorrow, no matter which side of the issue you are on. Yes I know that Seventh Day Adventists and Catholics aren't the same and I also know that not everyone believes,agrees, or following every teaching. Maybe I should of been more clear. I think it's best to leave somethings (like the bible) out since it's more of opinons and what one believes and others may not listen. I notice that alot of people seem to automatically ignore or yell at people when they bring things like the bible up in debates (Bibles are better for religious debates but not in abortion debates since they claim it isn't fact or logic). Same goes for secular logic since it's also more of a belief or opinon. It's best to use real scientist facts that have been proven since both sides can use facts and then give out your own opinons and state why you think so. And good luck becoming a Nurse FreeArsenal!
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:04 pm
SDA > Catholics
OOOH! What now I.am?
Lol, I'm just kidding around. Thanks for the well wishes, I'm going to need them.
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:41 pm
talk2hand Whatever! Whatever!
SAD = ~15 million members.
Roman Catholic = ~ 1 billion members
So take that! razz
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:07 pm
We have tons of facts, logic, and and science. We're always going to face people using the stereotypes. And we'll have a lot of times where we'll have to stop other pro-life people from using negative stereotypes, because it's not a one-sided thing. But it doesn't mean they're right, and it doesn't make them look better when they use them.
Usually when I ask people for respect, they say they can't respect me because I'm trying to take away their rights. They give all sorts of justifications for treating me like s**t but if I say anything disrespectful in the least, they pitch a fit about it. I suppose it's fun to be a hypocrite?
When they pick at other things, when they drag in your religion, your gender, your race, your sexual habits, they are attacking you directly. Whenever they do it, I try to say, "That has nothing to do with the issue at hand." Because it really doesn't have anything to do with it. They are sidestepping, and it makes it seem like they don't have enough confidence in their stance.
And good luck, a little late, on becoming a nurse!
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:45 pm
Yeah, I noticed they pick on anyone who disagrees and tend just find something about them (usually religion) and use it against them. Maybe they do lack confidences or lack facts.
I tend to roll my eyes when ever they say we think women are incubators or some other type of crap that has little to nothing to do with the actual debate (I don't know about you but I never saw myself as a machine of anytype and it's not like we always think pregnancy is all fun and games or want children).
Though there are things that they say that makes me laugh while other times I wonder "are they really pro-choice or pro-abortion?".
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:04 pm
It's been my dream since childhood. Really, I wanted to hit 21, get married immediately, and spontaneously become a machine that pops out babies. See, there's the thing that really gets me. I've never called a woman a breeder or an incubator. In fact the only people I've seen do that are the ones who call me a misogynist.
Hmm.
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:50 pm
Well, I see myself as a sex machine! ;D
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:29 am
lymelady It's been my dream since childhood. Really, I wanted to hit 21, get married immediately, and spontaneously become a machine that pops out babies. See, there's the thing that really gets me. I've never called a woman a breeder or an incubator. In fact the only people I've seen do that are the ones who call me a misogynist.. Hmm. Really? It's my dream too! After all i'm an incubator a woman, isn't that all we're good for? It's so weird for people to call women/girls a misogynist, I guess we are supposed to hate ourselfs then.
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:53 am
Quote: Well, I see myself as a sex machine! ;D I suppose we all see what we want to see... Put on those dancer bottoms and we'll talk >.>Sachiko, we hate ourselves because we've been brainwashed, or because we're bitter over some sort of lover's feud, or the bully girls picked on us, or something silly like that. Obviously!
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