◄highly discussed topic►

[Estelara]

I know this is a highly discussed topic, but I'm going to bring up the discussion of Elves and men. By saying elves and men, I mean how men are doomed to die and elves aren't. I'm going to list a few quotes that I totally agree with.

Tolkien estabilishes Elves as, for a lack of better terms, superior Men. They are all that men are, plus immortality, divine good-looks and eternal youth. Elves are not inherently wise; if you read the Silmarillion, you will see just how idiotic some of them were throughout the years. Rather, their wisdom comes from their long years of existence and the immense experience they pile up in the process, which makes them, in the eyes of men, as arrogant louts that just want to shepherd them in their road.

The Elven spirit, in the Tolkien mythos, dwindles and withers as the ages pass, while the spirit of Men rises and improves itself constantly. I believe this is a lesson Master Tolkien would have us men learn; That our craving for immortality is somethin' beeery stoopid, since it ultimately leads to the degradation of the self and the self's view of the world. Thus we see the episode in which Tar-Ciryatan is comfronted by the messengers of the Valar;

Quote:

"The Silmarillion"
The Eldar reported these words to the Valar, and Manwë was grieved, seeing a cloud gather on the noontide of Númenor. And he sent messengers to the Dúnedain, who spoke earnestly to the King, and to all who would listen, concerning the fate and fashion of the world.
'The Doom of the World,' they said, 'One alone can change who made it. And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.'
But the King said: 'And does not Eärendil, my forefather, live? Or is he not in the land of Aman?'
To which they answered: 'You know that he has a fate apart, and was adjudged to the Firstborn who die not; yet this also is his doom that he can never return again to mortal lands. Whereas you and your people are not of the Firstborn, but are mortal Men as Ilúvatar made you. Yet it seems that you desire now to have the good of both kindreds, to sail to Valinor when you will, and to return when you please to your homes. That cannot be. Nor can the Valar take away the gifts of Ilúvatar. The Eldar, you say, are unpunished, and even those who rebelled do not die. Yet that is to them neither reward nor punishment, but the fulfilment of their being. They cannot escape, and are bound to this world, never to leave it so long as it lasts, for its life is theirs. And you are punished for the rebellion of Men, you say, in which you had small part, and so it is that you die. But that was not at first appointed for a punishment. Thus you escape, and leave the world, and are not bound to it, in hope or in weariness. Which of us therefore should envy the others?"

very good point indeed...

The Gift of Men is a terrible gift; never forget that.

Quote:

Appendix A

Quote:

"As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive."

~Arwen, on Men


As intellectually wonderful as the Gift might seem (to readers and to the Elves), it is in reality a dreadful thing to understand.

Think of the trust that's required in being able to bear this Gift graciously. You have to believe without a doubt that everything you've been taught is true, that there is this future world where everything will be fine, and all wrongs amended. When we look at it, perhaps we think that in a world where gods walk among you, this sort of faith and belief are easy to have. But Tolkien's Men are no less fallen or conflicted than our own.

There are tons of examples (Bereg from the Sil comes to mind) of Men who simply weren't given the nobility to believe. And thus this wonderful Gift becomes a curse to them.

And then there are the problems addressed by Andreth in the Athrabeth in Morgoth's Ring. All the pretty philosophy that the Eldar and Valar project upon the Gift of Men goes out the window when you're actually facing it yourself. It's easy to envy something you never have to worry about having. I think Arwen really gets this down when she finally comes to see how bitter the Gift is.

So I don't think it's a thousand times better than the Elvish condition (though the uncertainty they have to face is terrible too).

Honestly, a world where two sentient races have such different fates is inherently less than ideal. Think about people like Luthien and her family, Arwen and hers, Andreth and Aegnor, seemingly forever separated because Illuvatar thought this was a good idea.

not quite as good but still important...

Quote:

People who don't understand this concept are the same people who just plain don't understand the core concepts of the book. The very fact that someone felt the need to write a Wiki treatise on it is rather pathetic, if you ask me, and symptomatic with what is wrong with this generation's reading skills. People spend far too much time looking at the flash, ignoring the substance, and drawing completely wrong conclusions. Pop culture is drowning thought.

But enough of a rant on that. For another reason why death=gift in the Tolkien universe, I'll just lift a few lines out of a fanfic I'm writing...


Quote:

Quote:

“We Elves do not think of age in the same way that you Men do, Commander,” Hadoriel said, “age brings wisdom and nothing else for us and so it has little other meaning. In many ways, I envy you.”

"How so?” Mablung asked.

“For you, age brings death. Elves do not die. We are tied to the circles of the world until the day that Ilúvatar Himself decides to end them. And on that day, we will end as well. But you will see worlds that I can never hope to dream of. You will continue in realms that even the One has not seen or conceived of. And so, I ask you, which of us is truly the immortal?”

and that is but a taste of the topic at hand.

I hope this is continually discussed, as I think it very interesting...

Hebo estel,bado go Eru, Namárië,
Arendil

 

[KeeperofShadows]

Another interesting quote that I've always found thought-provoking is this:

Quote:

'The Eldar dwell until the Great End unless they be slain or waste in grief (for to both of these deaths are they subject), nor doth eld subdue their strength, except it may be in ten thousand centuries; and dying they are reborn in their children, so that their number minishes not, nor grows...'

The Book of Lost Tales 1 (I forget which page, I will edit this later...)

I've always found it interesting that the Eldar seem to die only from depression ('waste in grief') and injury, and that, in keeping with the Gift of Man, they are reincarnated since they do not die as Man knows it.

So this begs the question: when an Eldar tires of the world, goes to Mithlond (Grey Havens) and passes beyond Middle Earth for Tol Eressëa, could this be considered a form of romanticized elven suicide?

I'm inclined to say yes.

EDIT: Actually, upon further reading, I have to clarify/revise my previous statements. The idea of a romanticized elven suicide only works if you accept Valinor and Tol Eressëa as a type of elven paradise/heaven. Going there is their escape from the griefs and woes of the world, but isn't actually death...

I suppose you could say that the idea of elven reincarnation versus man's mortality is almost a contrast between western and eastern beliefs, if one generalizes that the West usually accepts the idea of a life after death and the East has reincarnation. Of course, elven reincarnation only happens if an elf dies either through depression or injury,s ince death by old age is impossible for them.

But elven reincarnation makes a lot of sense, when you consider that the elves are forever tied to Arda until the One Himself sees fit to sever that bond, so of course elves that died would have to return somehow...

((Also, I thought that the Elven spirit grew brighter as time went on. I can't remember where, but I recall something about how their spirits burned brighter as time passed, so that their bodies could not contain them; they appeared to shine with an inner light, seeming more ethereal as their spirits burned brighter...? Something like that. I'll see if I can find it later....))