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Daniel has Amnesia Captain
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 Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:48 pm
This is a conversation I was having in the KH thread with someone [who happens to be a part of thi guild.] I found it very interesting, and something that may strike up conversation within this tiny place. xD I'd like to know your veiws on it. ^^ KeaLe the Yaoi God Chaos of Vincent Okay, I was checking out your deviantart site and favorites which led me to see other peoples kh art as well. I've got some questions about this Sora fetish. The threads in a slow period so hopefully i won't offend to many. Why do people get off portraying Sora as this little angel who is getting violated? I'm curious as to why it's attractive. Most fetishes I can understand, but I'm not smart enough to I can't figure this one out. Why is innocence sexy? And if innocence makes someone sexy, then that means they won't be attractive for very long because in all of these images, that innocence is being stolen. OR do the people drawing these images imagine Sora being innocent no matter what happens to him? I saw one piece where it was RikuxSora, and the entire time the sex was hurting Sora and he was in tears, but after it was all over he gave Riku a big kiss. I'm just curious because while I expected to see more of kh2 Sora on the net, there seems to be a bigger boom of innocent Sora being violated (even though Sora was no where near that innocent in the games.)
xD You have a point. That one is actually really hard to explain. I'm not exactly sure MYSELF what the fascination is with Sora and his innocence, I mean.. I live on it myself. xD; But yea, I don't understand the concept of him getting hurt and then liking it, like you described in that one piece of art you saw. I don't think I've ever done that, actually.
I don't think it's the innocence ITSELF that's hot, it's the concept of the potential taking of it.. or something like that. xD; But yea.
Chaos of Vincent It seems like being innocent wouldn't be sexy because you can only take a person's innocence once. So I was just curious. I read a lot of fanfics, and I've read some where Sora comes on to Riku. But that seemed more realistic in my opinion. People always portray Riku as the aggressor, but Riku was always too lost in his thoughts on that little island or working too hard or training. It makes more sense that Sora would notice his feelings first since he's so good at examining his relationships with those around him. Riku was probably more naive and immature with social interaction because he seemed like more of a loner. It's a lot like the way people think Tifa would be more aggressive than Aeris because Aeris seemed more innocent, when in reality it was Aeris who was always pursuing Cloud. Sorry I have nothing else to compare it to. KeaLe the Yaoi God Chaos of Vincent KeaLe the Yaoi God Actually you're right. xD; That does make a lot of sense. Sora -is- much better at examining and recognizing his relationships with the people around him than Riku is, which was very evident in the game.. So I suppose it would make more sense that Sora would come onto Riku first. xD
I think people just see Riku as the agressor because he's older and seems to have more knowledge about those type of relationships, where as Sora is too naive to see it. I mean, look how he acts with Kairi. She literally throws herself at him [ugh.. stupid mary-sue-plot-throw-in..] and he doesn't even recognize it that way. He continues to see her as just a good friend. He reacted to her as if she was on crack when she told him that they should take the raft and leave Riku behind. xD;
I think Sora knew about his feelings for Kairi and her feelings for him. I think he knew about it for a long time. He probably looked at her like she was on crack because he's too good of a friend to leave Riku behind. But I don't think Sora was that naive. I'm not saying that Riku was clueless or totally anti-social, but he was just as naive and innocent as Sora. He just played the part of the older brother and got really caught up in leaving the islands. But if you look at the way he talked to his friends, he was really a gentle easy going person. I just don't see him F*&^ing someone silly with that gentle persona. Sora was the one with the energy who ran around chatting with everyone. Now KAIRI, that girl would have been the major aggressor. She was nuts.
Oh, sure, he knew about his feelings for Kairi, I'm not denying that. But I have a feeling they weren't the type of feelings that Kairi was looking for. He cares about her, no doubt. But anyone can care deeply about a friend. It doesn't ALWAYS have to lead to a love intrest. The same can be said for Sora and Riku, too. I guess it just depends on where your intrests and beliefs lie. Keep in mind that Sora and Riku had known eachother their whole lives, and Kairi just happened to appear on the island one day when they were kids. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure one can guess which relationship is stronger.
So, who do you think would be the one to start the relationship, Riku or Sora? What do you think Sora's feelings for Kairi translate to? Are they love, or just concern? What are your theories on how people portray Sora's innocence?
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:07 pm
As said in the conversation above Riku is most of the time viewed as the more aggressive and dominant. Which is true in a lot of aspects of his character, but I think because of that and the fact that he's always so deep in thought he wouldn't have time to notice his feelings for Sora, making him less likely to be the relationship starter. Sora his more time and ability to analyze the love he has for his friends and more importantly Riku.
[bias]I'm not a big Kairi fan, but I'll be nice. The relationship between Sora and Kairi is on a lot lower level than the relationship Riku and Sora have, and is often viewed as one-sided. Since they've known each other since they were kids, they care for each other almost like brother and sister. I think that because of that, there's no way they'd end up together so to speak. In the game, Sora's goal is to rescue Kairi. Why, because he cares for her, nothing more.[/bias]
Ah, Sora's innocence. Generally, Sora's innocence is portrayed as him getting hurt and needing to be rescued (by Riku), or him being so darn naive and carefree. It makes him seem almost perfect and so goddamn cute. whee Sorry, it's a tough question.
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:36 pm
There's certainly a lot to think about in that conversation...
If I were to look at Riku and Sora as a general yaoi fan, I'd have to say that Riku would start the relationship. Why? Easy: the height rule, the age rule, and the experience rule. But...This is one of those pairings that can't be judged from the 'general yaoi' perspective. Their characters are far too deep for that...
I have to go with Sora on this one. He may be naive, but he's not nearly as clueless as people make him out to be. If he was, he would have left with Kairi on the raft and left Riku behind... Not to mention, he kept shooting Riku all those odd looks when the three of them were discussing their adventure on the Paopu tree. No...he knew what was going on all along...
Also, Sora is a very determined person. If there was something he wanted (such as Riku's affections), he wouldn't stop until he got it...
~*~*~*~
Hmmm...Sora's feelings towards Kairi...Well, I doubt he's in love with her. For one thing, he didn't necessarily act like he loved her. Sure he ran errands for her around the island, but if he really loved her, he would have done certain things differently. For one, he probably would have said yes when Kairi asked him to leave with her, or at least considered it. I think his blatant refusal said a lot about his true feelings towards her (or lack thereof...).
The same holds true throughout the game actually. Sure, he thought about Kairi a lot, because he did care for her as a friend, but there was never really any evidence to show that he showed more interest than that. In fact, in Chain of Memories, he did the same thing, but instead of spending most of his time thinking about Kairi, he was thinking about finding Riku...
I think that shows that his feelings were more based out of concern for a sister-figure than a potential love interest...
~*~*~*~
I think that people have a tendency to exaggerate Sora's naivete and innocence quite a bit. He's too often given the role of the damsel of distress and the strength he possesses isn't recognized at all... It's annoying, really.
Granted, I have read a couple fanfics where Sora is portrayed as the aggressor, and I can't help but enjoy those more, because, well, they're more realistic.
Though, Sora's adorable cuteness can't be denied--I don't mind seeing him get dominated once in awhile. whee
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 5:20 am
Now that I'm actually in this guild I can post examples of Sora being the aggressor, but I'll do that later.
And yes, fics where Sora was more aggressive were much more realistic and in character. People failed to realize that Riku was a gentle person. Even I failed to realize it until I got into a conversation with a girl in the kh thread we all met in. (She has a long a** name and I can't remember it. Key something. She and Duel Wielding Enigma pwn at debates. I'd ask to have them invited for the sake of conversation, but I don't think they like yaoi.)
But yes, Riku was gentle. You can see that with the way he talks to his friends in Chain of Memories. He isn't one to be aggressive without a good reason. Sora, on the other hand is a show off. He's not a humble person and in both released games we see him demanding that others see what he can do. He has an immature nature to him, but his friendly and playful nature is much more aggressive than Riku's.
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Daniel has Amnesia Captain
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 10:28 am
The way Sora acted in Chain of Memories isn't a direct representation of his personality. I can see him getting pissed off like that, for the sole reason of everything that's happened to him. I mean, first off, a fake Riku who HE thinks is the REAL Riku has been saying really nasty things to him. All his memories are disappearing, and so forth. I mean, jeez. Who WOULDN'T feel a little overwhelmed?
Sora's NOT an agressive person. He would NEVER hurt someone, or force someone into something. Sure, he may be the first to start something. You make him sound like he'd beat someone up the first chance he gets.
He is a little bit of a showoff, yes. But I mean, all guys are at his age. You think Riku's NOT a showoff? You'd have to be pretty blind to say that he isn't.
You say Riku is this oh so gentle person. He was willing to sacrifice someone elses heart to save Kairi. He was willing to HURT Sora to get his way. Sure, he was under influence, but so was Sora in CoM. Then again, Sora would never have tried to hurt his friends like Riku did. Not phsyically, but he did let his words slip away from him a few times.
Please don't make Sora off to be this huge aggressor, because he really isn't THAT much. Sure, he's brave enough to start something on his own or the likes, but he isn't what you say he is.
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 10:59 am
Chaos of Vincent Now that I'm actually in this guild I can post examples of Sora being the aggressor, but I'll do that later. And yes, fics where Sora was more aggressive were much more realistic and in character. People failed to realize that Riku was a gentle person. Even I failed to realize it until I got into a conversation with a girl in the kh thread we all met in. (She has a long a** name and I can't remember it. Key something. She and Duel Wielding Enigma pwn at debates. I'd ask to have them invited for the sake of conversation, but I don't think they like yaoi.) But yes, Riku was gentle. You can see that with the way he talks to his friends in Chain of Memories. He isn't one to be aggressive without a good reason. Sora, on the other hand is a show off. He's not a humble person and in both released games we see him demanding that others see what he can do. He has an immature nature to him, but his friendly and playful nature is much more aggressive than Riku's.
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 11:59 am
Yes Key Somniorum is amazing at debates, especially about ones that involve Riku. Anyways back to the discussion.
I read fanfictions alot, but so far I haven't found any fanfictions that involve Sora as an aggressor. I do agree that Sora isn't as naive or innocent as fanfictions portray him but considering I've read so much about that, I love it. I agree with a lot of you before me have already said, it's very true.
In the game Sora can be very aggressive if he wants to be especially when he's challenging enemies and such. I also agree about the fact that Sora can recognize his feeling's for others very easily, he knows what he wants and he's always determined to get what he wants. His determination strengthens his aggressiveness.
I guess Riku can be gentle but I never exactly found Riku to be a very gentle person. I find that he's also very aggressive, I mean he had a lot of determination in the game to leave Destiny Islands to see other worlds. Also in his pursuit to get Kairi's heart back. Personally I find that Riku is more aggressive than gentle. Sure he has gentle moments like when he protected Kairi/Donald/Goofy from Ansem, or on Destiny Islands at the beginning of the game. And finally at the end of the game when Riku said his last line.
Both Riku and Sora have their moments. Everyone does.
Considering I've never read a fanfiction where Sora was aggressive towards Riku, I'd have to choose Riku to start the relationship. He's older, looks the part, and he reminds me of any other seme. Sora I feel isn't as aggressive as Riku can be sometimes, because of Sora's happy go lucky personality causes me to think this. Sure Sora isn't as innocent or naive but this is the opinion from a girl who has read nothing but aggressive Riku and innocent, naive Sora. I love it, nothing can change that.
I think that Sora's feeling's for Kairi is a very close friendship. Kairi obviously loves him and wants Sora to love her back but I think he might think of her as just a very good friend. While I think Riku's feeling's for her is one of a brotherly/sisterly one. Kairi's feeling's for Riku is that she doesn't give a s**t about him, she never thinks of him....only about Sora. I think Kairi is actually jealous of Riku, somewhat because he is bestfriends with Sora and Kairi doesn't like that.
Anyways in Chain of Memories I feel the same way about the feeling's of Riku and Sora towards Kairi. I think though that Sora's feeling's for Riku have gotten a lot stronger. I find that he cares more about Riku. And Riku is just Riku, his feeling's about Sora are still about the same or at elast I think so.
In Kingdom Hearts II, Nomura may put in more hints for a Sora and Kairi relationship to happen, maybe it won't work out. I still think that even if they do get together somehow that Sora won't have the actual same feeling's that Kairi will always have for him. He may like her more in KHII but never enough to truely love her like she wants him too. Riku will always be there and Sora will always care for him. Nothing can stop that.
People portray Sora's innocence in different ways. I'm not rerally sure how they think of Sora as having such a childlike naivety. It may be because he's very cheerful, he loves to smile. It may be because since Riku seems more of a loner that he would seem better at not being innocent.
I also think it may be because of the whole way semes and ukes should act. Ukes tend to be more innocent so writers who love Sora and Riku to be together will make Sora naive and have a childlike innocence. Even if he doesn't act like that way in the game. Riku in my opinion would just seem weird as a uke considering by how he looks and sometimes acts. In my opinion Riku is perfect as seme while Sora is perfect as uke.
To sum it all up, I like how writers portray Sora as innocent. I've read too many fanfictions to change my opinion about that. I do understand the fact though that Sora can be very aggressive. I do still like the whole Riku is determined to have Sora. Sora is very naive about Riku's feeling's towards him but Sora likes Riku very much as well. Riku pursues Sora. Riku gets Sora. They make very sweet love together. The end. Yep never going to change my opinion about that.
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 12:09 pm
Rita, everything you said makes sense, except that you shouldn't let your beliefs be dominated by fanfiction. Remember that fanfiction is fanFICTION, and it doesn't always stay true to the characters and the game.
While Sora is portrayed as innocent in most fanfics, I've also found there to be stories where Sora feels like he wants to be "on top" for a day, because he's sick of being uke. I find that really understandable for Sora's character. And of course, Riku, being the way he is, doesn't agree with it. xD I always found that aspect to be kind of cute in a SoRiku fic.
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Daniel has Amnesia Captain
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 8:27 pm
Hmm, all these views are quite interesting. One problem I see with KH2 coming out (I haven't reasearched into what happens in it yet.) is that because it's not a shounen-ai game, Sora's relationship with Kairi may actually happen.
But on the matter at hand. Sora's personality in a way reminds me a lot of Naruto. I know, weird comparison. But really, he just wants to protect his friends, and have people realize that he's not a weakling, that he can protect the things and people he loves. You notice that he's always protecting people, especially in Chain of Memories. He'll jump in front of the victim, and defiantly say "You'll have to go through me first." Really, he's not as completely childish as all the fanfictions make him out to be. It's just a lot easier to write a fanfiction about an innocent character and a tough one. And if you build off Sora's cute factor, you're going to skew his personality. But that's only to be expected.
Riku is portrayed as the dominant one for many reasons, as Torrina Shirogane mentioned. General shounen-ai rules. Because he's definitely not childish, and he's more sexy than cute, he seems like the more manly of characters. And many people find it so easy to turn Sora into a gay stereotype. Cute, bubbly and smiling. Then they become a fanfiction-perfect couple. I'm not basing anything off fanfictions, but I do know that it's much harder to find Sora as seme. Very hard.
But of course, Sora's character isn't all bubbles. As I mentioned above, he's really just fighting to hold onto his friends. And if he loves Riku, that's all the more reason to try and help him.
That's all I can think of right now. xp
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:16 am
Sorry guys, I completely screwed everything up. When I said aggressive I was mainly speaking about the ability to act. For example, Sora was determined to show that he was a hero, so he always jumps into things. He's energy is more focused into proving himself.
And when I say Riku is gentle, I mean that he won't act out against someone unless he has a good reason to. Hence the reason he is called "cool and collected." If you examine the game, you'll find little evidence of Riku getting angry, and if he does he cools off quickly. Also, it stood out to me that if people wanted to get ahold of Riku in kh on the islands, they had to ~go to him.~ He was always off in his thoughts or working on something. It looked to the point where he wouldn't actively be persuing anything, but not on purpose.
This is all my mistake. ^_^; Sorry!
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:49 am
I found this post in old threads that I used to visit. I haven't been on in forever so this is from last year. I thought some good points were made on all sides though. My comments are all over the place. Kairi BashingThere are some great debaters in there, such as Rema and Raion. Too bad they don't seem to be around anymore.
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Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:53 pm
Well, would it be more interesting if they both were doing it hardcore?
No offense, but I'm not that big of a fan of hardcore anything.
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Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:28 am
LE0NARD Well, would it be more interesting if they both were doing it hardcore? No offense, but I'm not that big of a fan of hardcore anything.
Huh?
Sorry...It's just...I'm a little confused by your post. Could you maybe expand on your opinion a little? confused
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:22 am
Torrina Shirogane LE0NARD Well, would it be more interesting if they both were doing it hardcore? No offense, but I'm not that big of a fan of hardcore anything.
Huh?
Sorry...It's just...I'm a little confused by your post. Could you maybe expand on your opinion a little? confused
I second that. I'm confused.
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