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 Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:56 am
The following came from the Yahoo group Wicca for the Rest of Us , they gave permission for it to be passed along so here it is. Feel free to post your answer and discuss. Remember to keep it friendly!
Who first worked out the correspondences? Were they made up or "discovered" ? How do you know what lists of correspondences to trust?
Has anyone else noticed that magick seems to work for 'fluffy' witches too?
Sooner or later all the pagan deities were made up by man, right? I mean, each deity is just our way of identifying with a certain energy force of the universe, like Venus for love, right? So what's stopping us from making up 'new' deities?
Does that make fantasy religions as valid as real ones? For example, can people actually summon orc gods from Lord of the Rings? (I knew a guy who claimed to worship "Grom" once) Or are gods as Pratchett describes them... Feeders on beliefs who get stronger with the amount of followers they have?
What does 'quintessence' mean?
Are some spells more effective than others, or is it the intent and power the witch puts into it that only counts? If the former, how do you know which ones are effective and which ones are drivel?
If I wanted to cast a blessing spell, I’m sure I could find hundreds of herbs listed as to be good for blessing spells. How on earth do I know which ones to use?
For those of us who believe that it's the witch, not the tool that holds power... Does that mean that there's no more magick in an ancient Celtic ritual dagger (my history's fuzzy there so I don’t know if those even existed) than there is in a modern kitchen knife? None at all?
Does that mean that the ogham and runes are no more 'magickal' than, say, elvish or any other made up fantasy language?
Is it possible that magick is a natural resource... Like oil or gold? Could there be less magick today than there was, say, two thousand years ago?
Is it as prey to the second law of thermodynamics as everything else? In which case, should we even be using it?
If everything's balanced, does that mean that sending 'good' energy somewhere takes it away from somewhere else? Is it possible a prosperity spell for me, takes prosperity away from someone else?
When a hand-made, leather-bound book with parchment type pages feels more magickal than a spiral notebook, is it really because we're just being silly and subject to glamour, or is it maybe the fact that a hand-made leather-bound parchment-type-paper book is made of natural materials and not in a factory that makes a difference?
Surely some ritual methods are more powerful than others? Surely using blood in a ritual is going to be pretty powerful, effective and binding? Is there some sort of scale to know what is really more powerful? Or is it really all up to the power we ourselves hold? Is coca cola and a plastic lighter really just as acceptable to use as wine and matches?
Why do many of us laugh and think it silly when some people call themselves wizards, mages, sorcerers or similar? I mean, isn't the word "witch" kind of just the one that happened to gain popularity randomly?
With so many different kinds of witches and magick users, shouldn't we begin to allow other terms to be used? Or is 'wizard' doomed to always be associated with Gandalf?
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Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:41 pm
Quote: Are some spells more effective than others, or is it the intent and power the witch puts into it that only counts? If the former, how do you know which ones are effective and which ones are drivel? Surely some ritual methods are more powerful than others? Surely using blood in a ritual is going to be pretty powerful, effective and binding? Is there some sort of scale to know what is really more powerful? Or is it really all up to the power we ourselves hold? Is coca cola and a plastic lighter really just as acceptable to use as wine and matches? I am going to be mainly addressing these two topics (not questions specifically) since I have firsthand experience. I have very few magickal tools, I have an athame that I purchased from a wiccan website only to discover it was made in pakistan, and is a hunting knife. I have a pewter pentacle and an amethyst, strung on cheap black cording, and a mishmash of crystals and tealights- no large candles. Yet every spell I have ever done has worked. I recently did a spell for my father to find a job (he moved to england and has been having a tough time) at which he'd be happy and prosperous. He complained and I just said for him to wait... and ever since I did it the amount of interest he's gotten has slowly increased. Slowly, steadily.. but it's increased. First he got one callback, then another, now he's had interviews the past two days and three callbacks.. It only keeps getting better. Literally, my altar is the top of my dorm refridgerator and I use a plastic lighter to light my tealights, an oil burner from a cheap christmas wax-tart giftset and a few soapstone bowls from Wal*Mart.. Nothing I have, except my gemstones and tarot decks and other things you, in many cases, must purchase, is considered particularly magickal- Yet my spells and rituals work. There is no explanation for this other than the materials don't matter NEARLY as much as your own inner power.
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Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:47 pm
too2sweet Sooner or later all the pagan deities were made up by man, right? I mean, each deity is just our way of identifying with a certain energy force of the universe, like Venus for love, right? So what's stopping us from making up 'new' deities? This is the only one I have time for now. The others are either too easy or would take too long. Anyway: Nothing is keeping us from making new Dieties. Dieties cannot exist without us--humans/lesser beings--believing in them. It's just that simple.
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Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:02 pm
I disagree with your basic premise. Just remember, these are my personal opinions and I don't really care what you believe in, IMO all beliefs have just as much possibility to be correct as every other.
Gods existed first, next came man. This is just the way it is. And my view on magic consists of energy manipulation equaling magic, so any act of energy manipulation can be performed by anyone at any time as long as they have a strong enough will. Therefore, acts of magic can be performed by "fluffies" just as by anyone else. I do believe that all actions have consequences, however, which is why I consider a little bit of training an important step before one decides to use their will to manipulate the world around them.
As far as fantasy versus reality... Well, how do we know that fantasy is actually fantasy? How do we know that they weren't discovered? As far as correspondences go, well, they're not always accurate - imo. I change them as much as they need to be changed, I work with what works for me. Magic, again imo, has more to do with how your personal brain works than with anyone else's opinions or experiences.
And finally, as far as the terms for witches go... Well, I don't think what we call them really matters. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. But we can't ignore the connotations of words, and if we want to have a way to speak about those of us who share common beliefs we need to agree on a word that we can use without too much biased connotations. In other words... what we call ourselves doesn't really matter, it simply matters what we mean behind it. For example, if I said "I love that dress on you" with a roll of my eyes and snipped tones and even a little bit of nastiness in my voice then I'm being just as rude as if I said "You look like a yellow apple in that piece of trash outfit."
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Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:17 pm
Oh boy. Is it at all possible for you to split this stuff out into separate topics? The discussion is going to get seriously out of hand very quickly if all of these are in one thread.
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Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:50 pm
too2sweet Who first worked out the correspondences? Were they made up or discovered? How do you know what lists of correspondences to trust? I assume you mean all the correspondences, like hourly, planetary, color, and so forth. Most of them I believe are based on folklore, for lack of a better term. Planetary, for example, were more than likely worked out by ancient astrologers, who attributed everything to the movement of the heavens. To these people, the planets were more than planets, but Gods or Godly influences. If Mercury went retrograde, it was a big thing, watching a heavenly body travel backwards. Each planet was named for a deity, and therefore assumed to carry that deity's influence. Mercury (again) was about communication for he was the messenger of the gods. Kinda like AIM, only more reliable. Days of the week are also named for deities, but those are mostly (not all) Norse in nature. Again, they carry with them the essence of the deity they are named for. Hourly, and colors... I'm not exactly sure, but I'm betting hourly ties back to the astrologers. Almost anything dealing with time was probably their doing. They were superstitious and believed everything was controlled by a deity. Now, as for the Element/directions... One set of those actually comes from the Druids. It was how they viewed their world. Mountains rose to their North, Water lay to their west, the sun rose in their east, and the South was hot (hey, Africa and the Sahara lay that way)... so they felt it only natural. I'll see if I can't dig up the essay link on that, and post it in here. too2sweet Has anyone else noticed that magick seems to work for fluffy witches too? I don't remember reading or hearing anything about why it wouldn't. My understanding it that magick is all around us. What Christians call miracles, witches call results. What Christains call prayer circles, witches call working magick. Magick works for anyone... it's just not all of them tend to call it what it is. too2sweet Sooner or later all the pagan deities were made up by man, right? I mean, each deity is just our way of identifying with a certain energy force of the universe, like Venus for love, right? So what's stopping us from making up new deities? Perhaps the names given to them, and the images to represent them are thought of as "made up". I prefer to think that deity reveals itself in whatever form is most acceptable to the people it is dealing with. For instance, would a white god be more acceptable to people who are not white, or would they perhaps be more accepting of a deity who looks more like them? Why would the Chinese, for example, have a deity who was European? Wouldn't it be more natural for their deity to appear Chinese? And so, wouldn't it make more sense for that deity to have a Chinese name? "Water" is still water no matter if you call it 'water' or 'agua' or 'aqua' or 'вода" or '水'. You will still get water. If deity feels that a form is no longer acceptable to the people being dealt with, I believe the image will change to fit the mental expectations of the people. So, I suppose new deities can be 'created' while old ones are 'destroyed' but do you think we're really responsible for that, or is it all an illusion we're allowed? too2sweet Does that make fantasy religions as valid as real ones? For example, can people actually summon orc gods from Lord of the Rings? (I knew a guy who claimed to worship "Grom" once) Or are gods as Pratchett describes them... Feeders on beliefs who get stronger with the amount of followers they have? Again, if that's the image that works for them, who's to tell them it is incorrect? It's not so much that gods become stronger with more followers, it's that the image they take on becomes easier for them to work with if there are more people who accept it. So, in a way, it may look like they become stronger, but it's always the same energy behind the mask. too2sweet What does 'quintessence' mean? According to Dictionary.com: –noun 1. the pure and concentrated essence of a substance. 2. the most perfect embodiment of something. 3. (in ancient and medieval philosophy) the fifth essence or element, ether, supposed to be the constituent matter of the heavenly bodies, the others being air, fire, earth, and water. In our terms, that's the Spirit. The top point of the pentacle, so to speak. too2sweet Are some spells more effective than others, or is it the intent and power the witch puts into it that only counts? If the former, how do you know which ones are effective and which ones are drivel? I think it's a combination of factors. Personally, I believe the universe comes with a safe guard. If you try to do something with magick that would wreck the fabric of time and space... that safeguard goes into effect and kills the spell. Hence why some spells, even those preformed correctly, and with proper intent and power behind them, fizzle. We've probably all had them.. everything was perfect.. there was no reason it shouldn't have worked.. yet it fizzled. Universal safe code. Something, somewhere, would have been so horribly effected that... it wasn't allowed. Now, I do believe that the intent, and the energy put into it is a large factor. I also believe the proper focusing of energy is a factor. Unleash 5 tons of magick pressure randomly... you might get a small breeze. Unleash 5 tons of magick pressure that's focused... you've got a hurricane. (best example I could come up with.) You.. get the point. Untrained magick users more than likely are unfocused, while those who have trained, are more focused. Maybe a better example is... stand three feet from a deck, with a piece of paper on it. Blow on that paper. Note your results. Now, blow on that paper through a straw. Any difference? too2sweet If I wanted to cast a blessing spell, I’m sure I could find hundreds of herbs listed as to be good for blessing spells. How on earth do I know which ones to use? I'll agree with Leeana in this question. However, I'll add that, sometimes a list of herbs is given, because maybe not all of them are something you personally can get your hands on. Maybe some are native to South America, and you live in London. Maybe at the time the list was written, a specific herb was abundant, and thus cheap, while now it's $25 a half oz. Maybe they included all the herbs ever known, and some of them do not exist anymore. And.. my favorite... some people have better connections to certain herbs. Sure, you could use lilac, but maybe you have a stronger connection to Rosemary, thus, when using Rosemary, it's easier for you to work with the energies of the herb. It's also about choice. too2sweet For those of us who believe that it's the witch, not the tool that holds power... Does that mean that there's no more magick in an ancient Celtic ritual dagger (my history's fuzzy there so I don’t know if those even existed) than there is in a modern kitchen knife? None at all? Yes... and no. Tools are like training wheels. You use them to help you, and once you move past the need for the crutch, you don't use them. Again, it's about how you connect. If you believe the Celtic Dagger has more power in it because it's ancient, then you're more likely to accept it as a crutch than a kitchen knife. It's part of the reason they warn against using mundane items as ritual items, and using ritual items as mundane items. You -can- use the kitchen knife... but don't use it in the kitchen again, because it is easier to mentally separate items into "magickal" and "non-magickal" and thus connect to those energies. Now, not everyone is like that. Some people can work just fine without a crutch, and others can easily separate the item into different functions. It's a guideline. Now, for the no part. Coming from a spiritual and energy standpoint, items can store energies. That's what... I forget the term for it... but when someone can hold an object and tell you about the owner of the object. There's an imprint left behind. If a dagger is used for centuries by someone who does magick (passed down from person to person) then it's not that difficult to assume that energy has been stored, and thus gives it a more natural feel when using it once again for magick. too2sweet Does that mean that the ogham and runes are no more 'magickal' than, say, elvish or any other made up fantasy language? Given that Tolkien is supposed to have based his Elvish off ancient Celtic... that's a poor question. It makes Elvish a form of Gaelic dialect. Ever study languages? You'll learn why certain languages are called "Romance Languages". It's not just because they all 'sound pretty'. They all stem from the same language. They have a base language as their origins. So, Technically, Elvish has Gaelic as a base language, making it a form of that language. Therefore, it's not entirely a 'fake' language. too2sweet Is it possible that magick is a natural resource... Like oil or gold? Could there be less magick today than there was, say, two thousand years ago? It's a theory bantered about more times than not. Magick was more accessible back in 'the day' and now, it's a rare commodity. If that were true though, Witches would be wise to conserve it and not waste it. Rather than using it for frivolous things like good grades and lust spells, they'd be focusing on world peace and cleaner environments. I see no such concern. But then, I suppose the same can be said about the concern for other natural resources. Think about this... when we are kids, we often times see things others don't. Ever heard of 'imaginary friends'? What if they weren't? What if, what children see, are fairies, and spirits, and totem animals? What if it is their spirit guide? Adults teach kids not to see these things. We're forced to block them out, to put up mental barriers to that, because we're told it isn't real, and doesn't exist. What if it does? Perhaps the barriers we put up block more than the visions. Perhaps we cut off the magickal world completely. Re-establishing that link can be difficult, and maybe never fully functional, therefore, we never again have full access to the magick. too2sweet Is it as prey to the second law of thermodynamics as everything else? In which case, should we even be using it? Nani? Does magick fall prey to the second law? For everyone out there who doesn't know what that is, I quote "expression of the universal law of increasing entropy, stating that the entropy of an isolated system which is not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium. In simple terms, the second law is an expression of the fact that over time, ignoring the effects of self-gravity, differences in temperature, pressure, and density tend to even out in a physical system that is isolated from the outside world. Entropy is a measure of how far along this evening-out process has progressed." I believe that is asking, if Magick is cut off from the world, will it regain it's former potency? Given that I don't fully understand the law, I don't know if I interpreted that correctly. So I would rather refrain from answering. too2sweet If everything's balanced, does that mean that sending 'good' energy somewhere takes it away from somewhere else? Is it possible a prosperity spell for me, takes prosperity away from someone else? This is another theory I've seen more than once. If you do a rain spell, does that mean the resulting rain you get is actually taken from somewhere that might have needed it more? I think this is where the line "Harm to none and help to all" or some form thereof comes into play. Most people tag something in like that as a fail-safe. Basically, if what I'm asking for is going to adversely affect someone else, then don't let the spell take effect. If you step outside those boundaries, then I think you have Karma to deal with. too2sweet When a hand-made, leather-bound book with parchment type pages feels more magickal than a spiral notebook, is it really because we're just being silly and subject to glamour, or is it maybe the fact that a hand-made leather-bound parchment-type-paper book is made of natural materials and not in a factory that makes a difference? Again, see my response to the kitchen knife. It's not much different. It's a tool, and if the spiral feels more mundane than the leather bound hand-made version, then you probably won't connect to it. Personally, I use a three ring binder for easy edits, and I print everything off, hole punch it, and add it. It makes it easier for me to adjust the font size, and read by candle light. Especially as I get older. If I find something it too hard to read, I enlarge the font, reprint, re-punch, and remove the offending page, and replace it with the new one. This also helps if I find more information about something later, I can add it in behind the section, rather than 40 pages down the road. Hand-written books are nice, but never were practical for me. Learning isn't linear. too2sweet Surely some ritual methods are more powerful than others? Surely using blood in a ritual is going to be pretty powerful, effective and binding? Is there some sort of scale to know what is really more powerful? Or is it really all up to the power we ourselves hold? Is coca cola and a plastic lighter really just as acceptable to use as wine and matches? Blood is life energy.. so yeah, it's going to be powerful. If you have a piece of someone's hair, it's a part of them. Skin.. a part of them... But both of these have been exposed to outside forces like wind, rain, dirt, sweat, spit from other people... think of all the crap floating around in the atmosphere. Germs! Blood is supposed to be the most untainted. (well, if you don't count the crap floating in our blood.) But yeah, I think it's all about the symbolism. If you can connect with coke and a lighter more than matches and wine, then why not? Personally, for medical reasons, I can't have wine. Period. So if I'm not allowed to have a substitute, then what the hell am I supposed to do? Drink it and die? I doubt the gods want that. too2sweet Why do many of us laugh and think it silly when some people call themselves wizards, mages, sorcerers or similar? I mean, isn't the word "witch" kind of just the one that happened to gain popularity randomly? I think it has to do with their delivery, and if they seem to fully understand the meaning of the terms. The only word I find conflict with is "warlock" which wasn't something directly mentioned. Historically, it stems from the Old English wǣrloga, meaning oath-breaker, wǣr meaning pledge, and loga meaning liar. There's also some that translate it more as wær meaning truth, solemn promise, vow, faith... and leogan meaning to lie. I think, rather than the terms themselves being the cause for a laugh, it's the lack of understanding on the part of the person using them. too2sweet With so many different kinds of witches and magick users, shouldn't we begin to allow other terms to be used? Or is 'wizard' doomed to always be associated with Gandalf? I think again, it is to be determined by the person using the words, and the knowledge or lack there of of the term they chose. Personally, if a respected Witch that I knew -knew- what the terms meant started calling himself a wizard, it wouldn't phase me. It's a label, and well... we all know how I feel about damn labels. razz
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Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:23 am
Pretty much everything is what works for you personally, which might be why things have 20 different uses. It works a little differently for each person, and some people may be aligned with certain properties of something.
your thoughts and feelings for something automatically charge stuff with energy, which things you feel a connection to is something that will get more of the energy. all you are doing is constantly charging your tools and such. the items do have an energy of their own, which makes the energy sent through it vibrate in a way that matches its own, so in turn makes it its own energy. different vibrations of energy have different uses, just have to figure out which vibration works for what. plus there are the environmental factors and things adding its own energy which adds more uses, and also adds to the elemental properties of things and is part of what you connect to.
Whether something is pretty or not does play a factor, you aren't going to want to work with something that is ugly to you. there are other factors to though, there usually has to be some sort of meaning to it, otherwise you aren't quite connected enough to send that much energy to it. things that you create are usually a little more powerful since you are binding in the energies and intent of it during creation, and you have stronger feelings and thoughts of it which sends more energy. gifts are teh same too and you are getting the energy from multiple sources too ^_^
as far as the connotations to fictional things. they aren't that far fetched, you just have to have a bit of a reality check (there are dragons and unicorns and such, thery just don't always behave like in the books). they aren't bad for pulling ideas from, but using lord of the rings and harry potter as your kind of "bible" on things........ummm.....yeah......which also is why terms like "wizard" and 'magician' are seen as bad, people think you are wrapped up in a fantasy world like harry potter. "witch" has more real life connotations (although lots are negative, still deal with real things). the word magician is screwed though, I at least always think of "stage magic" with that.......call yourself a magician and people will think you are going to just escape from a box, or make an elephant dissapear rolleyes
sorry if this isn't quite coherent, can't always write things that nice organized way I think of them.......
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Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:15 pm
Just for the record, the four elements are Greek, NOT Druidic. The projection of the system of the elements onto Celtic culture is a modern idea and from what I know, they didn't at all use that system. Now, other cultures DID have similar 'element' systems, but the derivation of the one we use primarily as Neopagans is Greek. Not Celtic/Druidic.
As much as I'd like to think correspondences are actually based on folklore, I've found that to not always be the case. It's amazing the glaring inconsistencies I've run across between folklore and magical correspondence. Are people really just that damned lazy and don't do any research? Are they only basing it off personal experience but not bothering to tell you that? Yes, folkloric references do sometimes conflict and are inconsistent particularly where you mash together ones from different cultures, but some of the ones... gaaah. For some of them it's the best I can do to scratch my head and say 'WTF!!!' Correspondence tables. I trust 'em about as far as I can throw the book they're in.
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:28 pm
too2sweet The following came from the Yahoo group Wicca for the Rest of Us , they gave permission for it to be passed along so here it is. Feel free to post your answer and discuss. Remember to keep it friendly! Who first worked out the correspondences? Were they made up or "discovered" ? How do you know what lists of correspondences to trust? I think the correspondences (if I'm understanding what you mean) vary in how real they are. I think some were based on real things found in nature (for example blue would equal water or air in most color correspondence lists) and other things are kind of made up. In Wicca, as in every other religion, you sort of have to listen to your "internal BS-o'-meter," as my dear father puts it. Listening to this will help you to choose a good correspondence list for you. Also, these correspondences vary from tradition to tradition, so they're definitely not all the same. Sorry about that, it went through my mind sounding a lot more intelligent, but the point is, listen to your BS-o'-meter. It's usually worth trusting. Quote: Has anyone else noticed that magick seems to work for 'fluffy' witches too? Well, I say magic works for anyone who really believes in what they're doing and thinks or knows that it will work. Fluffies probably don't know they're fluffies, and therefore probably don't doubt their magic's worth. Quote: Sooner or later all the pagan deities were made up by man, right? I mean, each deity is just our way of identifying with a certain energy force of the universe, like Venus for love, right? So what's stopping us from making up 'new' deities? I'm going to say something that might offend some people, but just hear me out. I think pretty much every religion believes in and recognizes the same God or gods (goddesses too, I'm just too lazy to type it out. You know what I mean) but assigns them different names. I think Allah is the same as the Lord and Lady, just with a different face and name. Really what defines a religion is the belief in a greater being or presence of that sort (not out of a dictionary, but it's the best I could do,) and I think the reason why so many people believe in that sort of thing is because it's really there. "It" may not even have a face or a name, it may just be there. Who knows? Oh, and to the "what' stopping us" question... Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Plenty of people make up their own gods. Quote: Does that make fantasy religions as valid as real ones? For example, can people actually summon orc gods from Lord of the Rings? (I knew a guy who claimed to worship "Grom" once) Or are gods as Pratchett describes them... Feeders on beliefs who get stronger with the amount of followers they have? Like I said before, you can assign whatever face and name you want to gods and goddesses. "Grom" may or may not feel right to you, just the same as God or Athena. I doubt the Greeks, Celts, etc. got names and faces of Gods from Lord of the Rings, but I'm sure they were inspired by other things, like maybe things in nature or even real people. Too far back for any of us to know. Quote: What does 'quintessence' mean? I'm assuming you're referring to the quintessence as in the fifth element? If so, it's defined as the substance of heavenly bodies. If it helps, it's also called "spirit." I just say spirit because it's easier for me to comprehend. Quote: Are some spells more effective than others, or is it the intent and power the witch puts into it that only counts? If the former, how do you know which ones are effective and which ones are drivel? It's hard to know if some spells are more effective than others. Above all, I would say that it is, in fact, the intent and power of the caster, but things like the tools you use may matter. For example it would be smart to use something thats, say, not caffeinated, as a tool for a sleeping spell lol. For the last question I will remind you of your internal BS-o'-meter. Quote: If I wanted to cast a blessing spell, I’m sure I could find hundreds of herbs listed as to be good for blessing spells. How on earth do I know which ones to use? Although I do love recommending the use of your BS-o'-meter, that might not work for things like this. For blessing spells, use the thing that seems right you for you and the person, area, object, etc. that you will be blessing. As long as you're pretty trusting that it will work and you put lots of energy into it, it should work. Sometimes, when it's hard to find just the right reagent for a spell, I skip out on it if possible. Probably not a great way to handle it, but that's how I am. Quote: For those of us who believe that it's the witch, not the tool that holds power... Does that mean that there's no more magick in an ancient Celtic ritual dagger (my history's fuzzy there so I don’t know if those even existed) than there is in a modern kitchen knife? None at all? I have a very funny story about my dear friend using the largest steak knife he could possibly find for a symbolic great rite involving a bowl of water and an athame (or rather, steak knife) lol. But that doesn't have much to do with this. As you may have noticed, I'm a big believer in trusting in your magick to make it work, and some people may not feel quite as much power in a kitchen knife as in a ritual knife, or maybe even vise versa (sp?). Quote: Does that mean that the ogham and runes are no more 'magickal' than, say, elvish or any other made up fantasy language? Same as with your friend who chose to worship Grom. Quote: Is it possible that magick is a natural resource... Like oil or gold? Could there be less magick today than there was, say, two thousand years ago? This is making sense in my head, but i don't know how to say it. The term "magic" has been commercialized so much nowadays. If you ask any average person on their opinion of magic and what they think it means, nine times out of ten, they would probably think of Harry potter, or of pulling a rabbit out of a hat. There may be less magic in the world today because less people understand what it really is, but I think that unlike oil or coal, we could bring most of it back if everybody tried to understand it more. Please note that I don't think anyone really understands magic. Quote: Is it as prey to the second law of thermodynamics as everything else? In which case, should we even be using it? Ask someone smart. Quote: If everything's balanced, does that mean that sending 'good' energy somewhere takes it away from somewhere else? Is it possible a prosperity spell for me, takes prosperity away from someone else? Well, I think that while it is possible to take energy from someone else, most good energy that is "taken" from places is just the energy floating around in the air. That's from what I understand, which is as much as it is possible for a human my experience level to understand (i.e. not very much...). Sorry, this is another 'ask someone smart" question. Quote: When a hand-made, leather-bound book with parchment type pages feels more magickal than a spiral notebook, is it really because we're just being silly and subject to glamour, or is it maybe the fact that a hand-made leather-bound parchment-type-paper book is made of natural materials and not in a factory that makes a difference? How many questions like this have you asked? the answer pretty much same as always, except I will add a but more regarding the "hand-made" part. Some people feel more comfortable using a Book of Shadows made by themselves or someone they know. Often, more energy, usually positive, is put into something handmade than something made in a factory. That's really just how things are. Quote: Surely some ritual methods are more powerful than others? Surely using blood in a ritual is going to be pretty powerful, effective and binding? Is there some sort of scale to know what is really more powerful? Or is it really all up to the power we ourselves hold? Is coca cola and a plastic lighter really just as acceptable to use as wine and matches? Like I said before, I really do agree with the "it is the witch not the spell" thing... or whatever. Blood creates a personal bond between the caster and the altar, shrine, spell, whatever, but I have often felt my spells turned out just as powerful without blood as with. Also, I have tried using apple juice and a cigarette lighter during circle, and after my friends and I stopped laughing, the end result was very productive and felt very powerful. But as a counterexample, a while before that, I had done pretty much the same thing, but the ritual just didn't do anything. Looking back, I realize that it was probably because of my skepticism about using juice xD. Oh and yes, I'm a very unorthodox Wiccan. Welcome to my world. Quote: Why do many of us laugh and think it silly when some people call themselves wizards, mages, sorcerers or similar? I mean, isn't the word "witch" kind of just the one that happened to gain popularity randomly? Yes. Quote: With so many different kinds of witches and magick users, shouldn't we begin to allow other terms to be used? Or is 'wizard' doomed to always be associated with Gandalf? Different kids of magic users do use different names, but "witch" is just the most common, for whatever reason. Also, the word "witch" may have some kid of historical significance that I'm not at all aware of. On a side note, I used the word "you" as a replacement for "the original asker of these questions." I know you weren't the one who asked them, as you said at the beginning. Thanks for the questions, and sorry if I came across as rude. I usually do.
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:27 pm
I'm going to give my opinions on these very briefly and not in too much detail, because there's too many questions for me to do that.
I'll fix it and take out the quotes...here's the answers in order.
1. An accumulation of people and ideas over time. I don't know the "first" person but probably some people waaaay back in primitive times, depending on what correspondence you're talking about. If you just mean correspondences in general then it's a rather vague question as we are doing in in our minds all the time. As for being made up or discovered, I would think a combination of both.
2. Depends on what you mean by "fluffy" and how they go about performing their magic. Like someone said before, if they truly believed that their magic was working, then there's a good chance that it would, but I think that it's very limited if they don't think about how magic works...
3. Well, nothing really, except subconscious ideas in our mind that working with an older deity is better, or ideas in the community that worshiping made up gods of your own is silly. I personally don't view the gods as just "working with a certain energy force" I view them as gods in their own right, although many of them are related and share names throughout different cultures. They are gods but they are personified by us. However, if one wanted to just work with an energy force then I see nothing wrong with personifying that force however you want to. Besides, god is a rather vague term so you'd have to be specific.
4. If it works for them...sure.
5. what?
6. The intent and focus of the witch is more important. Spells are made up.
7. Depends on what kind of blessing you want to do. Besides that, whatever is available to you, calls to you, feels right...
8. Well...sorta. To put it basically, yes. I think that the effectiveness we'd feel from the two object depends heavily on how our subconscious mind to perceive the object. An ancient dagger doesn't speak to us in the same way that a kitchen knife might, and the kitchen knife could be less effective depending on what our goal is and how we associate it with what we're doing.
Of course if you're a kitchen witch, the kitchen knife could be a lot better for what you're trying to accomplish.
9. Like I said before, it depends on how you perceive them. But I do believe that since runes have been worked with time and time again, after a while they set some kind of a...pattern or idea in the universe associated with that symbol...that is called on again when you use it.
10. no, this is not how I view magic at all.
11. I don't understand this.
12. Well, it's possible that in the course of your spell being manifested, somewhere down the line somebody could loose some money. Say if you get a raise, your coworker is fired as well, or gets less money. Bad example I know, but I don't think of this in terms of balance like I usually perceive it, it's moreso like social/economical balance, not really doing with magic per se, but the two are interconnected.
So basically yes, it's possible, but not determined on a magical or divine force, just the path that it takes and what's going on economically.
13. Both, except I wouldn't call it being silly. It's just how our subconscious mind associates with it. And consciously, yes, I think that we do appreciate hand made things more than mass-produced things out of a factory, so it feels more special to us.
14. I think it's really a combination of things. Some people believe that blood makes magic more effective, some people don't. It really has to do with how you perceive it, like I've been stating. The soda can and lighter is just as powerful as the wine glass and matches if you want it to be, but some people like to be more traditional because that's just what works for them better. If they can accept it as being magical in their subconscious mind then that's really all they need.
15. meh, I don't think it's really important, if somebody called themselves a wizard I'd be skeptical of what they meant, but if they seemed intelligible about whatever their practicing then there's no reason for me to laugh.
16. I think that's up to the people. Maybe over time wizard will have gained a more serious connotation, maybe not.
There's way too many questions here...
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:32 pm
Quote: Keep 'quote towers' to a minimum: use common sense. You don't need to quote if what you're quoting is the post directly above you, and keep regular quotes to about five, depending on length.
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Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:06 am
Has anyone else noticed that magick seems to work for 'fluffy' witches too?
Like others I don't think their 'fluffyness' has anything to do with their ability to cast magic. However, I think its sad because they seem to mostly focus on that as the only aspect of Wicca, and perhaps fail to understand the depth o the religion itself.
Sooner or later all the pagan deities were made up by man, right? I mean, each deity is just our way of identifying with a certain energy force of the universe, like Venus for love, right? So what's stopping us from making up 'new' deities?
I see the gods of the world as different versions of The God and Goddess, just like we might act a different way around different people so too do the Lord and Lady take on many different faces around the world. All male gods or religious figures are different characteristics of The God embodied in a single deity, and the same is true for female and The Goddess. I don't think we create gods, but that we rediscover them, or the Gods create new faces for us to discover.
Does that make fantasy religions as valid as real ones? For example, can people actually summon orc gods from Lord of the Rings? (I knew a guy who claimed to worship "Grom" once) Or are gods as Pratchett describes them... Feeders on beliefs who get stronger with the amount of followers they have?
I don't think summoning Orc gods could really be valid. Of course you could argue that Grom was a god that Tolkein subconsciously included in his book. I don't know how I would feel about that but I would try to respect a persons choice to worship Grom.
Are some spells more effective than others, or is it the intent and power the witch puts into it that only counts? If the former, how do you know which ones are effective and which ones are drivel?
I would say that part of the intent and power is transfered in the creation and recording of the spell, and that when you use that spell you're invoking that intention and power which is present in the words (if its a written spell) notes, or whatever the spell is composed of. I would say though that the success of that spell would rely on the person being able to still feul that spell with the intent and power necessary to complete it, rather than coasting off another person's. Therefore whether the spell is effective or not is dependent on the creator and the person performing the spell. I don't really think any spell is 'drivel'.
For those of us who believe that it's the witch, not the tool that holds power... Does that mean that there's no more magick in an ancient Celtic ritual dagger (my history's fuzzy there so I don’t know if those even existed) than there is in a modern kitchen knife? None at all?
To some people that may be true, but I think its really a case-by-case issue. To me, I believe the tools and rituals you use are more of a focus and amplifier. Personally I think it would be easier for me to use a celtic ritual dagger (assuming they exist) because of its history and its age (I'm Irish so I groove pretty well with the Celtic stuff, and its age makes it seem more important, like an old member of your family, or an old family heirloom). I don't think that you have to have these things though, and I'm sure proper concentration and will power can compensate for lack of focus.
Does that mean that the ogham and runes are no more 'magickal' than, say, elvish or any other made up fantasy language?
I think any language has magical potential, its just whether or not it envokes magical feelings within that person. Some people will mesh well with different languages, some people have to make up their own language. I don't think that makes their rituals any less valid.
Is it possible that magick is a natural resource... Like oil or gold? Could there be less magick today than there was, say, two thousand years ago?
That would certainly make a lot of sense. Perhaps the earth's magical resources are a little drained from her struggle to combat pollution. I actually really like that idea. I don't really have an opinion on this one to be honest.
If everything's balanced, does that mean that sending 'good' energy somewhere takes it away from somewhere else? Is it possible a prosperity spell for me, takes prosperity away from someone else?
If that were true there would be no point in Wicca existing. Every time you try and help someone you would be hurting someone else, ensuring that you broke the rede no matter what. I'm not sure the balance necessarily means for every positive action there is a negative reaction and visa versa. That would render the entire faith entirely useless and hypocritical.
When a hand-made, leather-bound book with parchment type pages feels more magickal than a spiral notebook, is it really because we're just being silly and subject to glamour, or is it maybe the fact that a hand-made leather-bound parchment-type-paper book is made of natural materials and not in a factory that makes a difference?
I don't think there's too much of a problem in succumbing to such a shallow impulse. If it helps you to get the right kind of spiritual inspiration and brings you happiness, thats a good feeling and theres nothing wrong with that. Its kind of like shoping for clothes, of course they're a big part of your day-to-day life so you want them to look good on you and represent your personality and personal preference. You may choose really pretty frivolous clothes or ones with certain slogans or symbols, or none at all. Still you may not care at all, just as I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't care if they're using a plastic knife as opposed to a ceremonial dagger, a three ring binder, or a leather bound book.
Surely some ritual methods are more powerful than others? Surely using blood in a ritual is going to be pretty powerful, effective and binding? Is there some sort of scale to know what is really more powerful? Or is it really all up to the power we ourselves hold? Is coca cola and a plastic lighter really just as acceptable to use as wine and matches?
It seems to me that the presence of violence needed to produce blood in a ritual would disrupt the energies and end up being exactly the opposite of effective. Once again all these depend on the person involved. Wine and matches may help a person to be more in the moment, while it may not make a difference to another person.
Why do many of us laugh and think it silly when some people call themselves wizards, mages, sorcerers or similar? I mean, isn't the word "witch" kind of just the one that happened to gain popularity randomly?
With so many different kinds of witches and magick users, shouldn't we begin to allow other terms to be used? Or is 'wizard' doomed to always be associated with Gandalf?
I think that would inevitably lead to a lot of confusion. I like that everyone is under a single umbrella name of 'witch' I suppose that came about 'randomly' but its an established name that is representative of a community. There are Gardnerian (sp) Wiccans and Saux Wiccans and all kinds of different traditions but the term 'Witch' unifies them and remind them that they're all part of a large family of pagans. To give certain traditions different names would effectively break up that community feel. Likewise I like the lack of gender-specific names it denotes an expectation of equality.
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