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In abortion, crime stats, we see what we wish

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ryokomayuka

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:04 pm


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-page27-column,1,7181654.column
Quote:
In abortion, crime stats, we see what we wish
Volatile issues defy predictions
Clarence Page

January 27, 2008

If legalized abortion led to the dramatic 1990s decline in crime, as some people think, will a decline in abortion lead to a crime surge?

That question came to mind as activists last week marked the 35th anniversary of the Supreme Court's Roe vs. Wade decision that legalized abortions.

Although the "pro-life" and "pro-choice" groups don't agree on much, both found something to celebrate in the big news of the day: U.S. abortion rates have fallen to a 30-year low.

The New York-based Guttmacher Institute, whose research is cited by both sides in the superheated abortion debate, reported that abortions fell to 1.2 million in 2005 from a peak of 1.6 million in 1990. That's a decline to 19.4 abortions per 1,000 women and girls of reproductive age in 2005 from 27.4 in 1990.

Both sides of the debate applauded the numbers, even as they argued over who should claim the most credit for the decline, which included abortions by pills as well as surgery.

Either way, the numbers served to vindicate Bill Clinton's centrist policy early in his presidency to make abortion "safe, legal and rare." Whether his critics like what he did or not, the trend lines under his watch moved in a direction that can satisfy the largest number of people in this highly contentious issue.

But every silver lining has its cloud. Although abortion declined in the 1990s, crime dropped even faster. Some folks see a connection. The most controversial hypothesis as to why crime dropped in the 1990s attributes the decline to the emergence of legal abortions two decades earlier.

Preventing the birth of many unwanted babies meant fewer teens and young adults who would be most likely to commit crimes in the 1990s, according to the theory famously proposed by the economists Steven Levitt and John Donohue, and later popularized in Levitt's 2005 best seller, "Freakonomics."

Just before the Jan. 22 anniversary of the Roe decision, Levitt took a new look at the numbers and mused in his New York Times blog on how the recent decline in abortions might predict future crime patterns.

The answer?

It depends on why abortion rates are falling, he writes, "and I'm not sure we know the answer to that question."

I appreciate his humility. Although I stand firmly on the pro-Roe side of the abortion debate, I have always been troubled by theorists who try to make too much of the decision's long-term benefits.

Supporting that view is Franklin E. Zimring, a criminologist at the University of California at Berkeley who reviewed the data and found: "The crime decline of the 1990s was a classic example of multiple causation with none of the many contributing causes playing a dominant role."

American women already were reducing their birth rates a decade before Roe through birth control pills and other measures, Zimring points out in his book, "The Great American Crime Decline." Also, Canada experienced a crime decline that paralleled the one in this country without a Roe vs. Wade decision to go along with it.

That's what crime and abortions have in common: Everybody wants crime and abortions to decline and everyone claims credit when they do. Yet, the experts have done a better job of explaining crime and abortion trends than predicting them.

In the early 1990s, experts predicted that a new generation of young "superpredators" would make crime shoot through the roof. Instead, crime rates fell through the floor.

The noted social scholar James Q. Wilson of Pepperdine University, for example, predicted that the first decade of the next century will see "30,000 more young muggers, killers and thieves than we have now. Get ready." But a few years later Wilson admitted to a New York Times reporter, "So far, it clearly hasn't happened" and that "This is a good indication of what little all of us know about criminology."

Recent surges in violent crime in cities like Philadelphia and Los Angeles reflect the constantly changing, yet highly local, nature of such problems. In a world of rapidly changing science and social attitudes, the same is true of a sensitive and highly individualized issue like abortion. The best lesson for us to remember in dealing with the future is to remember what worked in the past. Then keep doing it.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:11 pm


No, it wont fall...because illegal immigration on the rise. So is giving them IDs and Drivers license with out an American birth certificate...or people forging on for them...or people hiring them when its a federal crime to do so.

Tiger of the Fire


La Veuve Zin

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:01 am


Tiger of the Fire
No, it wont fall...because illegal immigration on the rise. So is giving them IDs and Drivers license with out an American birth certificate...or people forging on for them...or people hiring them when its a federal crime to do so.


You're saying illegal immigrants are violent criminals? And giving them IDs makes them worse?

You are so ******** wrong it's nauseating.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:44 am


La Veuve Zin
Tiger of the Fire
No, it wont fall...because illegal immigration on the rise. So is giving them IDs and Drivers license with out an American birth certificate...or people forging on for them...or people hiring them when its a federal crime to do so.


You're saying illegal immigrants are violent criminals? And giving them IDs makes them worse?

You are so ******** wrong it's nauseating.
What's wrong is that you are taking what he said and twisting it, generalizing it.

I don't think he's saying all illegal immigrants are violent criminals, but surely you aren't saying that the ease with which one can come into our country does not leave us open to violent criminals sneaking in. Like drug lords and whatnot. And yes, giving them IDs and driver's licenses does make it worse, because it allows them to act like legal immigrants when they aren't. It allows them to get amenities that are the rights of legal immigrants, when they -aren't- legal immigrants.

There's a reason we have an immigration system; So that violent and dangerous people can't just waltz right in and settle down. This isn't to say that all or even most illegal immigrants are violent criminals, but I would say that a healthy percentage are.

But this thread is about the relation of abortion to the crime rate, so I would ask you both that if you wish to continue a discussion on illegal immigration, you should do so by starting a new thread in ED.

I.Am
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I.Am
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:46 am


In response to the original post;

Great find!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:11 pm


I.Am
This isn't to say that all or even most illegal immigrants are violent criminals, but I would say that a healthy percentage are.


Got a source? I do.

There's no significant correlation between crime rate and either abortion or immigration. Hate crimes against Latinos, however, have spiked, because of intolerance of immigrants, legal or not.

This is why I have zero tolerance for the association of illegal immigrants with criminal activity. Overwhelmingly, the only crimes these people are committing are not documenting their residence or work status.

Is this related to abortion? Absolutely. It's another facet of the baseless claim that crime in a certain area can be decreased by preventing an undesirable class of people from existing there.

La Veuve Zin

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lymelady
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:20 pm


Get thee all to the guild extended discussion!

But seriously, I love how this went from crime rates and abortion to illegal immigration. Can we try to stay on topic? I know sometimes we start joking around, but this is a full on debate on a completely different topic, and we have a subforum for that, as Andy said.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:31 pm


Zin, I really don't see what's wrong with seeing -illegal- immigrants as undesirables. If those folks want to immigrate legally, great! I have no problem with Latinos. But there are numerous reasons that their illegal immigration shouldn't be supported, and claiming racism against me is just a sympathy gathering cop-out.

Topics related in some way or another to abortion, ie adoption, Plan B, the death penalty, and euthanasia, have all been relegated to the ED subforum. Why is it that this topic, which it's a huge stretch to connect to abortion, is okay? After all, should we start arguing about the relationship between the death penalty and the crime rate in here?

I.Am
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lymelady
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:43 pm


I.Am
Zin, I really don't see what's wrong with seeing -illegal- immigrants as undesirables. If those folks want to immigrate legally, great! I have no problem with Latinos. But there are numerous reasons that their illegal immigration shouldn't be supported, and claiming racism against me is just a sympathy gathering cop-out.

Topics related in some way or another to abortion, ie adoption, Plan B, the death penalty, and euthanasia, have all been relegated to the ED subforum. Why is it that this topic, which it's a huge stretch to connect to abortion, is okay? After all, should we start arguing about the relationship between the death penalty and the crime rate in here?
That's why I just asked everyone to go to the ED subforum to discuss this topic.

I.Am - I know, I was just trying to explain why it doesn't belong here since she was arguing my reasons. I'm writing up a post now.


Please, no one reply about illegal immigration anymore. When someone makes the topic in the ED, get a mod (or if you're a mod, do it) to edit it into either this post or the last post that mentioned it, that way people can be redirected, and this wonderful find can be discussed.

I.Am - I posted the thread here: Illegal Immigration is Illegal!

Edit: Ah, understood. Wasn't thinking for a second.
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