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ShadowIce

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:02 am


kp is dcvi
I beg for humor, if only for a second.

(PC Guild link about celebrations for 53 years of choice)
http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=11702787

I feel like... on one hand, you have a group of people calling abortion a "difficult" choice and that no one truly "likes" to actually get an abortion.

Then you have this "happy" and "positive" celebrations over the ability to make said "difficult" choice.

Did anyone else forget the fact that this is a surgical procedure? Not quite sure about any of you but I haven't seen any listings for rhinoplasties, or angioplasties or chemotherapy in the past... like forty years.

Y'know, just saying.

I think certain people need to pick an attitude that does not contradict their views and stick with it.

EDIT: In line with Guild rules, do not use names, and do not make reference to individuals.

ryokomayuka
Don't you mean 35 years and not 53?

I agree why would you celebrate something like that?

I guess I'll try to explain where I stand on this issue. ninja

I, as a Pro-Choicer, will celebrate Roe v Wade the same way I would celebrate a heavily contested court ruling that allowed people to make a decision regarding cancer treatment. I don't see my attitude as contradictory. After all, can't we agree that it is wonderful that if a person has cancer, they can choose their medical treatment? Can't we celebrate that neither the government, the medical community, nor any other group can force a person to have a specific procedure? We can hold these views while not liking the fact that people must choose between various cancer treatments, and while knowing that choosing one's cancer treatment is terrible and painful decision to make. Yes, abortion is hard choice that no one likes to make, but I'm not celebrating that people have unplanned and/or unwanted pregnancies. I'm celebrating that women have the right to make the choice.

Now, I am aware that we don't celebrate a person's right to choose their cancer treatment, but neither is there a large movement that wishes to remove a person's right to choose their cancer treatment. Such a celebration is unnecessary because this right is not contested. However, if a person did wish to celebrate the fact that we as citizens of the USA have the right to determine our cancer treatment, I would not object or say that this attitude was inconsistent with the view that choosing one's cancer treatment is a difficult choice that no one likes to make.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:47 am


I can't say I'm really "celebrating" but I am enjoying the press that the issue is getting today. I understand why some people, especially in the PCG are celebrating. I mean, from the Pro-Choice view, RvW was a great step, allowing women to get safe, legal abortions (and, as a new article about a study reports, women seem to have abortions in the same percentages whether or not it is legal).

I don't think that people in the PCG are happy that there are abortions, rather they are happy that women who make this difficult choice have access to a safe and legal abortion.

WatersMoon110
Crew


ShadowIce

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:49 pm


La Veuve Zin
Anyone else notice most of these celebrations were put on by Planned Parenthood?

"35 years of the most profitable choice yet--cha-CHING!"

I'm never entirely sure what to do when people say that organizations that provide abortions are really only in it for the money. First, there's no way for anyone on the Pro-Choice side to really respond. After all, it's a statement about broad statement about an entire group of people's motives, and as such it is a statement that can't really be backed up or denied. We can say, "No, really, it isn't just about the money," but I've never seen such a statement make an impact. Yes, people pay for abortions. There simply isn't a way for a medical facility (any medical facility, including ones that don't provide abortions) to operate without taking money. However, in all the time that I've interacted with both Planned Parenthood and organizations that had to do with abortions, not once have I seen someone make any kind statement to the effect that their actions were dictated by a desire for profit, and I haven't seen anyone act in a way that indicated to me that they were interested in a profit over the wellbeing of women.

Second, it seems to me that an organization that was only out to make a quick buck would stay as far away from abortion as possible. After all, how in many sectors of the medical profession do people usually see highly publicized murders of the staff involved? How many kinds of doctors have their facilities purposefully damaged in an effort to put them out of business? How many "wanted" posters are there out there for other types of doctors? What other types of medical procedures have roughly the equivalent of the global gag rule? Why would someone who was so selfish risk so much?

Third, although there seem to be a general belief that those in the abortion sector earns lots of money, I've never seen any evidence of it. Certainly if doctors in abortion clinics earn about the same as other doctors (and I don't know if they do) then they earn a lot of money, but that's because doctors in generally earn lots of money. Can someone give me a citation indicating that people at abortion clinics really earn so much more than those in other comparable sectors? And if Planned Parenthood is so lucrative, then why do we even have Pro-Life sites that say that various Planned Parenthoods have closed do to a lack of funds?

Lastly, Planned Parenthood isn't just about abortions. The Planned Parenthood I volunteered at when I was a teen didn't even provide abortions. All we did was test for STDs and provide birth control.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:29 pm


"Relief" and "satisfaction" may be appropriate emotions.

But when I hear "celebration", I think of... a great deal of joy. And nothing about abortion seems joyous. Nothing. I could easily say the same if I was Pro-choice.

On another note: You fit that title into the title box? Wow.

DCVI
Vice Captain


ShadowIce

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:33 pm


kp is dcvi
"Relief" and "satisfaction" may be appropriate emotions.

But when I hear "celebration", I think of... a great deal of joy. And nothing about abortion seems joyous. Nothing. I could easily say the same if I was Pro-choice.

Well, as I tried to convey in my previous post, I don't find joy in abortion. I find joy in the right to choose.

That being said, I've been known to be over inclined to find positive aspects in negative things.


kp is dcvi
On another note: You fit that title into the title box? Wow.

I iz da scaryiez eek
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:17 am


Abortion is not something to be celebrated. Though I guess, in a similar way, slave owners would have celebrated their right to own sub-human property. It just seems like one of those things- It is a choice, yes, but a bitter one that causes death and pain.

divineseraph


ShadowIce

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:42 am


divineseraph
Abortion is not something to be celebrated. Though I guess, in a similar way, slave owners would have celebrated their right to own sub-human property. It just seems like one of those things- It is a choice, yes, but a bitter one that causes death and pain.

But that is operating under a Pro-Life viewpoint. It's like a Pro-Choicer saying, "Denying women their rights is not something to be celebrated. Though I guess, in a similar way, slave owners would have celebrated their right to treat slaves as sub-human property." Even if the Pro-Choicer believes it, it's not a statement that a Pro-Lifer would agree to. Furthermore, if Roe v Wade was overturned, countless Pro-Lifers would celebrate, while Pro-Choicers would say that such a decision is a bitter one that causes death and pain.

In essence, I'm not saying that you should agree with Pro-Choicers celebrating Roe v Wade. You're Pro-Life; of course you aren't going to agree, just like I'm not going to agree with you mourning Roe v Wade. I'm just explaining why someone who believes that the right to choose is good might celebrate such a right.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:31 pm


This is true. However, we would celebrate the stopping of deaths, choicers celebrate a personal choice.

divineseraph


WatersMoon110
Crew

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:46 pm


divineseraph
This is true. However, we would celebrate the stopping of deaths, choicers celebrate a personal choice.
Look, I'm not very into "Mardi Gras". I think that people go far overboard in enjoying random sex and alcohol (and, I'm sure, plenty of other drugs). I don't really feel that "we want to sin a bunch before Lent" is a good reason to celebrate. Not to mention, tons and tons of crime (muggings, thefts, murders) happens during these exorbitant parties.

Does that make it less of a reason to celebrate for those who do participate?

I don't think that people should have to have a reason that everyone feels is "good enough" in order to celebrate. I don't feel that some people not agreeing with the reasons makes one group's reason "better" or "worse" than any other reason for a celebration.

Though, I'm sure you disagree.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:29 pm


divineseraph
This is true. However, we would celebrate the stopping of deaths, choicers celebrate a personal choice.

I understand that you feel your position is justified and that those who are on the other side of the argument (Pro-Choice) are not justified. I understand that you feel that you would be justified in celebrating if your side got what it wanted, and that you feel that not getting what you want is not worthy of celebration. But the simple fact is that Pro-Choicers in general feel the exact same way that you do. They, too, feel that they are justified and that those on the other side (Pro-Life) are not. They, too, feel that they are justified in celebrating if their side gets what it wants, and that not getting what they want is not be worthy of celebration. Honestly, I believe that in general, where Pro-Lifers and Pro-Choicers differ is not in how they feel about the issue, but instead which side of the issue they are on.

ShadowIce


La Veuve Zin

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:48 pm


ShadowIce
I'm never entirely sure what to do when people say that organizations that provide abortions are really only in it for the money. *snip*


True. I just saw that the overwhelming number of celebrations in that list were located at or put on by a company that performs abortions. Sure, it makes sense, but to me it's like a pharmaceutical company celebrating the decision allowing drug marketing to consumers. A bit sleazy...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:51 am


La Veuve Zin
ShadowIce
I'm never entirely sure what to do when people say that organizations that provide abortions are really only in it for the money. *snip*


True. I just saw that the overwhelming number of celebrations in that list were located at or put on by a company that performs abortions. Sure, it makes sense, but to me it's like a pharmaceutical company celebrating the decision allowing drug marketing to consumers. A bit sleazy...
But the participants in the celebrations mostly weren't providers or employees, but regular citizens. More like cancer patients celebrating for that drug than the companies themselves.

Also, there are no ads for abortion clinics or to convince people to get abortions. There are ads to convince women to choose adoption to to choose to keep their child (I've only seen billboards for this type - but there are radio ads of the first type as well as billboards).

Abortion, in most states, can't be legally covered by insurance. State or Federal money can't go to covering abortion costs. Either private donations, or individuals seeking the service must cover the cost. Most clinics require counseling before, and often even a waiting period (though that is probably usually required by law rather than just clinic policy). The goal is to make sure that women aren't being pressured into an abortion, but are always choosing it of their own free will, because they feel that is what is best for them in their situation.

So, I don't feel that most clinics are "just in it for the money". Let's face it, if they weren't charging, the same people would be complaining about that instead! (And I've seen people, on other sites, complain that some places offer discounts or financial help to women who can't afford the procedure.)

WatersMoon110
Crew


ShadowIce

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:34 am


WatersMoon110
Also, there are no ads for abortion clinics or to convince people to get abortions. There are ads to convince women to choose adoption to to choose to keep their child (I've only seen billboards for this type - but there are radio ads of the first type as well as billboards).

I agree with your post, so I don't have much to add except that in my area, we have TV ads promoting adoption as well.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:41 am


ShadowIce
WatersMoon110
Also, there are no ads for abortion clinics or to convince people to get abortions. There are ads to convince women to choose adoption to to choose to keep their child (I've only seen billboards for this type - but there are radio ads of the first type as well as billboards).

I agree with your post, so I don't have much to add except that in my area, we have TV ads promoting adoption as well.
I've seen TV ads encouraging people to be adoptive parents (and I really like the "Adopt Us Teens" campaign) - but none trying to convince unintentionally pregnant couples/women to carry the pregnancy to term and give the resulting child up for adoption. Though, I have to admit that with House on DVD and our DVR, I don't watch many commercials anymore.

So there are television ads that wish to convince women/couples to "choose adoption" in some areas?

WatersMoon110
Crew


ShadowIce

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:21 am


WatersMoon110
I've seen TV ads encouraging people to be adoptive parents (and I really like the "Adopt Us Teens" campaign) - but none trying to convince unintentionally pregnant couples/women to carry the pregnancy to term and give the resulting child up for adoption. Though, I have to admit that with House on DVD and our DVR, I don't watch many commercials anymore.

So there are television ads that wish to convince women/couples to "choose adoption" in some areas?

Yep. To the best of my fuzzy memory, the one I remember goes something like this:

Teenage girl and older man (her father) are in a car. The car is in the driveway of a house. The girl starts to back up the car and backs into the mailbox, or maybe it was a trash can (she is clearly just learning to drive).

The girl gets that kind of, "Oh crap, I've just screwed up," look on her face, including that, "Oops I didn't mean to" smile. The man sighs, smiles and says something to effect of, "Oh, I think you got your mother's sense of direction."

The girl responds with something like, "Oh, yeah, well I also got her intelligence. After all, she was smart enough to choose to give me up for adoption."

The man smiles and says something to the effect that yes, the girl's mother must have been really smart and my recollection of the the commercial ends. I don't recall for sure if there was one of those, "X number of families waiting to adopt," messages or not.

I wish I could find it on the internet. I don't think my description of it does the commercial justice.
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