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Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:12 pm
I mentioned this offhand in a different thread, but I think it's worthy of its own topic. I am often dumbfounded by the fact that the champions of animal rights and the champions of pre-birth human rights are on opposite sides of the political spectrum and that groups of these activists are nearly mutually exclusive. If we consider human life to be within the larger category of animal life, then would we not also oppose the unnecessarily cruel treatment and killing of humans - especially that of the most innocent and vulnerable - human babies. It is a cruel myth that pre-birth humans do not feel pain. Even before birth, babies have the same neural response to tactile stimuli that post-womb humans do. AKA - having your limbs torn from your body and being sucked into a vacuum hurts - regardless of how old you are. If our local turkey farm was treating their animals in such a way, we would be appalled and doing our best to protect these animals from harm. So how can we make the exception of human babies? Are we so devoid of compassion and moral conviction that we can consider a human child to be disposable? I've heard it said that being anti-abortion is equal to being pro-rape. This is about the worst kind of illogical propaganda that I have heard. Abortions have no ability to keep rape from occurring. Nor do the babies themselves cause rapes to occur. I would suspect the most abortions have nothing to do with rape. I know I am stepping on some toes here, but as vegetarians and vegans, we all do some toe stepping. Being a vegetarian is about much more than not ingesting meat. Imagine a person who says, I will not torture animals, but I have no problem with you torturing animals. In fact, I think it is your absolute right to do so and I will earnestly protect that right. This does not sound like the behavior of a true vegetarian to me. Yet when we support abortion this is exactly what we are doing, Please take the time to think about this. Reply. Disagree. Agree. Say what you think. All I ask is that you take some time to actually think first. Outspoken animal rights activist Robert Cohen wrote a fantastic essay on the topic. Please read: http://notmilk.com/abortion2.htmlPlease don't avoid this issue because it is uncomfortable.
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Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:13 am
First of all, fetuses can’t feel pain. Journal of the American Medical Association Pain perception requires conscious recognition or awareness of a noxious stimulus. Neither withdrawal reflexes nor hormonal stress responses to invasive procedures prove the existence of fetal pain, because they can be elicited by nonpainful stimuli and occur without conscious cortical processing. Fetal awareness of noxious stimuli requires functional thalamocortical connections. Thalamocortical fibers begin appearing between 23 to 30 weeks’ gestational age, while electroencephalography suggests the capacity for functional pain perception in preterm neonates probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks. For fetal surgery, women may receive general anesthesia and/or analgesics intended for placental transfer, and parenteral opioids may be administered to the fetus under direct or sonographic visualization. In these circumstances, administration of anesthesia and analgesia serves purposes unrelated to reduction of fetal pain, including inhibition of fetal movement, prevention of fetal hormonal stress responses, and induction of uterine atony. The American Pain Association Pain experience is now widely seen as a consequence of an amalgam of cognition, sensation, and affective processes, commonly described under the rubric of the biopsychosocial model of pain. Pain is no longer regarded as merely a physical sensation of noxious stimulus and disease, but is seen as a conscious experience that may be modulated by mental, emotional, and sensory mechanisms with sensory and emotional components. The biopsychosocial concept emphasizes the multidimensional nature of illness, injury, and pain, rather than emphasizing pain as a purely physical fact of illness or injury. Pain has been described as a multidimensional phenomena for some time, and this understanding is reflected in the current IASP definition of pain as “an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage”. A further reason to doubt the viability of fetal pain post-26 weeks’ gestation is the development of the fetal cortex. Although the thalamocortical fibers penetrate the cortical plate at approximately 26 weeks’ gestation, the cortical regions that have been identified as important in processing the various components of pain do not become fully responsive until after birth. British Medical Journal Fitzgerald believes that responses to noxious stimuli before 26 weeks cannot be interpreted as pain because the "cortex is not a functional unit." After 26 weeks, however, we are left to consider whether the biological development of the fetus is so advanced that it may begin to experience pain. Whether the fetus feels pain, however, hinges not on its biological development but on its conscious development. Unless it can be shown that the fetus has a conscious appreciation of pain after 26 weeks, then the responses to noxious stimulation must still essentially be reflex, exactly as before 26 weeks. The meat, dairy, egg, wool, leather, fur, pet, and other animal industries undeniably hurt animals. On the other hand, abortions do not cause the fetus any pain. However, denying abortions to women does infringe upon their right of bodily domain, the right to control her own body. Since a fetus cannot feel pain, banning abortions infringes upon the human right of bodily domain and integrity, the world is incredibly overpopulated with humans, pregnancy is incredibly expensive, can cause medical problems, and death, it is illogical to ban abortion.
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Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:24 pm
Quote: The meat, dairy, egg, wool, leather, fur, pet, and other animal industries undeniably hurt animals. On the other hand, abortions do not cause the fetus any pain. I've often thought that a being's right to live is not based solely on it's ability to feel pain. For example, if I know someone who I would prefer not to be in my life, and I were to visit this person in the hospital while he/she is under a general anesthetic, then I would be able to terminate that person's life without him/her feeling any pain. I still think it would be wrong for me to do so. So clearly, even if a fetus is unable to feel pain - which is not proven to be the case, that should not be the only factor in determining whether that person has a right to live and whether someone else has the right to forcefully end that person's life. Quote: However, denying abortions to women does infringe upon their right of bodily domain, the right to control her own body. And it's not about a woman's own body. I have no problem with a woman's decision to maim herself. She could chop off a finger, bruise herself, poison herself, cut herself, starve herself, or drown herself, and that is her right. But clearly a pre-birth baby is not a part of the mother. It is within the mother, it is dependent on the mother - but it is not the mother. Quote: Since a fetus cannot feel pain, banning abortions infringes upon the human right of bodily domain and integrity, the world is incredibly overpopulated with humans, pregnancy is incredibly expensive, can cause medical problems, and death, it is illogical to ban abortion. As far as the problems of overpopulation, expense, and medical complications, there are solutions that are far more effective and less risky than abortion. These include but are not limited to - abstinence, birth control, and the removal of reproductive organs. I still don't understand how we can guiltlessly say we value our own convenience over the life of another person - especially when it is our lifestyle and decisions that cause the "inconvenience" in the first place. It's pretty dang disgusting.
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Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:24 pm
Quote: For example, if I know someone who I would prefer not to be in my life, and I were to visit this person in the hospital while he/she is under a general anesthetic, then I would be able to terminate that person's life without him/her feeling any pain. I still think it would be wrong for me to do so. So clearly, even if a fetus is unable to feel pain - which is not proven to be the case, that should not be the only factor in determining whether that person has a right to live and whether someone else has the right to forcefully end that person's life. First of all, a person is a lot different from a fetus; because a person is a sentient being, whereas a fetus is not. This person is also not connected to your body; therefore infringing upon your right of bodily autonomy. You are allowed to refuse to donate blood, organs, or marrow, which could cause a sentient being to die, because it's your body. If somebody attached themselves to you and their survival depended upon being attached to your body and leeching out your nutrients, you would be allowed to kill them by removing them from your body. I would also like to see the unbiased sources you keep refering to which say fetuses do feel pain, regardless of the fact that they aren't developed enough to feel pain and that to feel pain requires consciousness, which fetuses do not possess. Quote: And it's not about a woman's own body. I have no problem with a woman's decision to maim herself. She could chop off a finger, bruise herself, poison herself, cut herself, starve herself, or drown herself, and that is her right. But clearly a pre-birth baby is not a part of the mother. It is within the mother, it is dependent on the mother - but it is not the mother. Like I said before, the principle of bodily domain / intergrity which allows us to defend and make decisions about our own bodies. The fetus's (not sentient, not conscious, not capable of feeling pain) "rights" do not outweigh those of the mother (sentient, conscious, capable of feeling pain.) Quote: As far as the problems of overpopulation, expense, and medical complications, there are solutions that are far more effective and less risky than abortion. These include but are not limited to - abstinence, birth control, and the removal of reproductive organs. I still don't understand how we can guiltlessly say we value our own convenience over the life of another person - especially when it is our lifestyle and decisions that cause the "inconvenience" in the first place. It's pretty dang disgusting. Abstinence isn't realistic (how many people want to go without sex their whole life) or realistic (rape happens.) Birth control isn't covered under many medical plans, and therefore expensive, or is even unavailable is some countries. It leads to ethical dilemmas for female vegans, because all of the chemical options are made with hormones from the urine of pregnant mares. It's also not 100% reliable, contraception fails. 90% of women who are "at-risk" for unintended pregnancy are on contraceptives. Yet 11% of these women who use their method of contraception perfectly will become pregnant. (Source: The Guttmacher Institute) And while some women may have abortions, they may want their reproductive organs later when they're ready to have children. Plus, abortion is much less risky than having surgery. And less expensive. The Guttmacher Institute The risk of abortion complications is minimal when the procedure is performed by a trained professional in a hygienic setting: Fewer than 1% of all U.S. abortion patients experience a major complication. The risk of death associated with abortion in the United States is less than 0.6 per 100,000 procedures, which is less than one-tenth as large as the risk associated with childbirth. However, 68,000 women in countries where abortion is illegal die each year of abortion complications, and many times this number are injured by unsafe procedures. Again, a fetus isn't a person, it has the potential to be a person. It sure is a "inconvenience" for the women who already have children and cannot afford to take the time off from work to have another baby. Or for the mentally ill woman who would have to stop taking her anti-depressants during a pregnancy and might end up committing suicide. Abortions aren't for "convenience", they save lives (women who would die of complications from pregnancy or have psychological problems because they couldn't take their medications) and make them better for the women who need them (who can't afford to be pregnant, to take time off to have a baby, for the extra food they'll need to eat during their pregnancy, the medical expenses.)
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Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:50 am
I've spent some time looking up sources. Abortion Methods: from The Moral Question of AbortionQuote: To determine whether abortion causes pain to its victim, I will review the methods of abortion. (1) D & C or Dilation and Curettage. The child, seven to twelve weeks old, is cut to pieces by a sharp knife. (2) Suction. The child, also seven to twelve weeks old, is torn to pieces by a suction machine, twenty-nine times as powerful as a home vacuum cleaner. Wouldn't any sentient being with functioning nerve endings and a nervous system feel pain, probably excruciating pain, when subjected to such procedures? As I will show, the child at this stage has functioning nerve endings and a nervous system sufficient for feeling pain. (3) D & E or Dilation and Evacuation. As in D & C, the child, now much larger and more fully developed, is cut to pieces by a sharp knife. "This procedure requires the inflicting of innumerable knife wounds until death results. It takes about ten minutes."1 In the booklet Fetal Pain and Abortion: The Medical Evidence, we read: D & E abortions are performed after the 12th week of pregnancy (and are performed up to and including the period of viability) when fetal bones are too large and brittle and the size of the fetus is too great for standard first trimester abortion techniques. D & E involves the progressive dismemberment of the fetus prior to extraction in order to facilitate removal of the fetal parts from the uterus. The slicing and crushing involved in dismemberment of the fetus in D & E abortions would obviously excite pain receptors and stimulate the neural pathways, thereby evoking an aversive response in the fetus whose central nervous system is functioning. It must be concluded, therefore, that the fetus suffers pain as the result of D & E abortion.2 This booklet is by Dr. Vincent J. Collins, with Dr. Steven R. Zielinski and attorney Thomas J. Marzen. Dr. Collins is Professor of Anesthesiology at Northwestern University and the University of Illinois, and author of Principles of Anesthesiology, one of the leading medical texts on the control of pain. (4) Salt Poisoning or Saline Solution. Here the child is older (thirteen weeks or more), and thus more developed, and the procedure takes longer (one to two hours), so the amount of pain is undoubtedly much greater. The child is bathed in a chemical solution that poisons him and burns his skin. Curt Young writes of the effect of saline solution on the child: Because the salt is so concentrated, it chemically burns human tissue. The child assaulted with saline looks as though he has succumbed to an attack with napalm. Much of the outer skin has simply been burned away. No one can imagine how excruciating the pain is. We do know that physicians recognize immediately the effect of instilling saline into the woman's gut rather than the amniotic sac. The pain is so unbearable the client may throw herself off the table. This is exactly what the unborn child does in his mother's womb. In fact the mother can feel this: ". . . Once they put in the saline there is no way to reverse it. And for the next hour and a half I felt my daughter thrash around violently while she was being choked, poisoned, burned, and suffocated to death. I didn't know any of that was going to happen. And I remember talking to her and I remember telling her I didn't want to do this, I wished she could live. And yet she was dying and I remember her very last kick on her left side. She had no strength left. "I delivered my daughter whose name is now Charmaine Marie. She was 14 inches long. She weighed over a pound and a half. She had a head of hair and her eyes were opening."3 [Another report tells us that] saline abortions cause the fetus to feel "the same agony as an adult who has suffered burns over 80% to 90% of his body.. . . The fetus squirms, throws himself around, and shows a total grimacing pattern of withdrawal."4 (5) Prostaglandin. The child is subjected to violent muscle contractions as he is forced out of the womb. Some babies have been decapitated. Another factor: "The method of abortion involving the introduction of prostaglandin into the mother's system may bring about death of the fetus by constricting the circulation of the blood and/or impairing the heart function. Pain analogous to that of a person experiencing a heart attack can be assumed."5 Death for the child by prostaglandin may be a lonotes3.asp"Another intended effect of this chemical is the induction of labor so that the woman delivers a stillborn infant much as she would be induced to deliver a live one. In this method, then, the infant dies very gradually (maybe over a two-day period) from severe cardiovascular complications."6 Does a fetus feel pain? from The Moral Question of AbortionQuote: What are the neurological structures necessary to feel pain? The booklet, The Medical Evidence states that three elements are required: "Pain receptive nerve cells, neural pathways and the thalamus."8 The thalamus is a portion of the brain that "lies above the spinal cord and brainstem, but below the cerebral cortex."9 The cortex is the seat of higher mental functions. It is very significant, in the present context, that the presence of a functioning cortex is not necessary to pain sensation. Even complete removal of the cortex does not eliminate the sensation of pain; no portion of the cortex, if artificially stimulated, results in pain sensation. It follows, therefore, that neither the presence of the cortex nor transmission of pain impulses to the cortex are essential to pain sensation. When the cortex (which develops and functions later in human gestation than the thalamus) is involved in a pain response, it generates elaborated aversive behavior and adds psychological and cognitive components to pain sensation.10 The functioning neurological structures necessary to suffer pain are developed early in a child's development in the womb. Functioning neurological structures necessary for pain sensation are in place as early as 8 weeks, but certainly by 13 1/2 weeks of gestation. Sensory nerves, including nociceptors, reach the skin of the fetus before the 9th week of gestation. The first detectable brain activity occurs in the thalamus between the 8th and 10th weeks. The movement of electrical impulses through the neural fibers and spinal column takes place between 8 and 9 weeks gestation. By 13 1/2 weeks, the entire sensory nervous system functions as a whole in all parts of the body ....11 That functioning neurological structures necessary for pain are in place between eight and 13 1 / 2 weeks corroborates and supplements the Amicus Curiae statement that in the seventh week, "the brain configuration is already like the adult brain," that "brain waves have been noted at forty-three days (6.14 weeks)," and particularly, "After the eighth week no further primordia will form: everything is already present that will be found in the full term baby." If a full-term baby can feel pain, then it is reasonable to infer that a baby that is essentially like her, one in whom everything is already present that will be found in the full-term baby, must also feel pain when she is destroyed by the violence of abortion. Recall also, "Dr. Still has noted that electroencephalographic waves have been obtained in forty-three to forty-five day old fetuses, and so conscious experience is possible after this date."12 With conscious experience, or soon after, comes the possibility of feeling pain. The development of the central nervous system leading to "functioning neurological structures necessary for pain sensations" at an age between 8 to 13 1/2 weeks begins early in the child. As was stated before, "commencing at eighteen days the developmental emphasis is on the nervous system"; and "by the end of the twentieth day the foundation of the child's brain, spinal cord and entire nervous system will have been established." Turning to element (b), overt behavior expressive of pain, The Medical Evidence booklet tells us: "Concurrent with the development of the sensory structures is the emerging responsive behavior of the fetus. By the end of the 5th week a tap on the mouth of the fetus will cause the lips to draw back."13 The Amicus Curiae states: In the sixth to seventh weeks, nerves and muscles work together for the first time. If the area of the lips, the first to become sensitive to touch, is gently stroked, the child responds by bending the upper body to one side and making a quick backward motion with his arms. . . In the ninth and tenth weeks, the child's activity leaps ahead. Now if the forehead is touched, he may turn his head away and pucker up his brow and frown.... In the same week, the entire body becomes sensitive to touch.14 The Medical Evidence adds: By 10 weeks, the palms of the hands are sensitive to touch, and at 11 weeks the face and extremities likewise respond to tactile stimuli. By 13 1/2 weeks, these responses are sufficiently elaborate and sufficiently avoidant to warrant the definite conclusion that the fetus responds aversively, not reflexively. They evidence an integrated physiological attempt to escape noxious stimuli. In response to experiments performed on 12 to 16 week fetuses, movements of the head, body, and limbs have been observed. These movements were vigorous, and consisted of ventro- or dorsoflexion of the trunk, flexion of the limbs, and turning of the head, indicating the presence of acute fetal pain. It is agreed that a fetus must be heavily sedated before intrauterine manipulation, such as transfusions, because such painful stimuli cause the fetus to move, making the procedure difficult.15 The American Medical News reprint reports, "Physicians know that fetuses feel pain ... because [among other things]: Nerves connecting the spinal cord to peripheral structures have developed between six to eight weeks. Adverse reactions to stimuli are observed between eight and 10 weeks.... You can tell by the contours on their faces that aborted fetuses feel pain," added obstetrician Matthew Bulfin, M.D., of Lauderdale by the Sea, Florida. He described the case of a 25-year old woman administered a prostaglandin abortion, who expelled her fetus in the middle of the night. Before hospital nurses arrived, she witnessed "the thrashing around and gruesome trauma on his face, and knew that the fetus had suffered."16 The Medical Evidence concludes: When doctors first began invading the sanctuary of the womb, they did not know that the unborn baby would react to pain in the same fashion as a child would. But they soon learned that he would. By no means a "vegetable," as he has so often been pictured, the unborn knows perfectly well when he has been hurt, and he will protest it just as violently as would a baby lying in a crib.17 Objections and Replies First: "Suppose abortion causes pain to the child. Causing someone pain is a frequent occurrence in medicine. It is hardly a reason not to proceed with a medical procedure." Granted, the causing of pain is a frequent occurrence in medicine. This by itself does not show that a particular instance or type of causing pain (as in abortions) is morally justified. To be justified, at least three conditions must be fulfilled: There must be an overriding, justifying reason for causing the pain. In a typical abortion, the woman wants to end an unwanted pregnancy. Is this a sufficient reason for cutting a child to pieces, or subjecting her to an hour or more of burning? Suppose we caused the woman that kind of pain to benefit the child. Who would claim that this constituted a justifying reason? In the normal medical case, the procedure benefits and hurts one and the same person. We do something that causes a person pain but results in an overall benefit for him. If two patients are involved, causing pain becomes much more problematic. Ordinarily, we cannot cause B pain for the sake of A. Only in extreme cases, for example, saving someone's life or preventing permanent paralysis, could one do this. Even then, as the pain becomes greater, the justification becomes more difficult. When the pain for B is very great, such as what may reasonably be inferred from dismemberment or saline burning, and the benefit for A is not commensurate with it, it is clear that this second condition is not met. Pain should not be inflicted if there is a reasonable alternative. Couldn't an anesthesia be given to the child to eliminate any chance of pain? Killing the child is the primary evil. Causing her needless pain adds to the horror. Second: "The child in the womb cannot feel pain because he lacks a sufficiently developed physical basis for pain experience. The brain and nervous system may be there but only in rudimentary form; what is missing is maturation." Third: "The child in the womb cannot feel pain because pain involves not merely physical sensation, but also higher psychological functions, such as a certain degree of self-awareness, memory (of the immediately past sensation), and anticipation (of the immediate future). Pain is a cognitive as well as a physical experience; and for such a cognitive experience to be possible, the cerebral cortex needs to be developed, which is not the case in the preborn child." In reply to the second and third objections: No one knows that the child cannot feel pain. The possibility of pain is surely there, and must be taken seriously. Specifically: (1) Look again at the saline procedure described at the beginning of this chapter. "No one can imagine how excruciating the pain is." If the woman is affected by the saline solution, "the pain is so unbearable . . . [she] may throw herself off the table." This solution affects the whole body of the child, for an hour or more, a child that may be fourteen inches long and weigh about a pound and a half. Suppose this child is not sufficiently developed to feel pain to the full extent, quantitatively and qualitatively, that we would feel pain under these conditions. Suppose her pain is only ten or fifteen percent of what our pain would be. Isn't that horrible enough for the child so that we ought to shrink back from inflicting this on her? Hold your hand to a warm-to-hot stove - that is less painful than the pain of being burned all over your body, but surely it is painful enough to shrink back from. Hold your hand to the stove for just ten seconds - that is much less than one hour, but painful enough Similar consideration applies to D & E, where a well-developed child is cut to pieces. Perhaps she feels much less pain than you would. But ten to twenty percent of that is horrible enough. (2) In regard to the point that the cortex is not sufficiently developed to allow for the cognitive elements in pain experience, it is possible that this may increase, rather than decrease, the intensity of the pain: While the likelihood of weak participation by the cerebral cortex will work against the magnification of the pain, there will also be an absence of the inhibitory input from the brain which modulates and balances the sensory input in more developed beings. Consequently, the possibility exists of smaller and weaker sensory inputs having the same effect which later is achieved only by larger and stronger sensations.18 (3) The risk argument: Suppose there is some doubt in the minds of some people: "We do not know that the child feels pain." To which we must immediately add: "And we do not know that the child does not feel pain!" The evidence presented here - the presence of nerve endings and a functioning nervous system, the sharp knife or chemical solution, and the child's agitated attempt to escape - makes it at least extremely likely that the child does feel pain, probably excruciating pain. We cannot risk causing such pain! A deer is eaten alive by a tiger; a baby seal is clubbed and left to die on the ice. One might argue that it is not known for sure if such animals feel pain, perhaps they are not enough like us to feel pain as we do. But they are enough like us to make it overwhelmingly likely that they do feel terrible pain. The same applies to the preborn child. We shrink back from the risk of causing pain to animals because we identify with them: "If I were in his place I would not want to suffer such pain." If we identify with the child, we must say the same thing. Would you do something that might cause terrible pain to a loved one? Even if the probability of pain was fairly low? If the probability of pain is as high as it is for the preborn child subject to the knife or chemical solution of abortion, one would certainly not risk the pain. What is true for the born loved one should also be true for the preborn child. It follows that one cannot risk causing the terrible pain probably associated with abortion. (4) There is some evidence that the child of seven or eight weeks who is the victim of suction or D & C suffers pain in some way. As the child advances to twelve weeks and beyond, the probability that he or she feels pain increases, to the point where it can hardly be doubted. There is an increasing gradation. As the child grows older, the physical elements necessary for suffering pain become more fully developed (brain, peripheral nervous system, etc.). This means that, as the child grows older, there is an increase in: (a) the likelihood that there is pain; (b) the physical intensity of the pain; (c) the psychological intensity of the pain: it is more fully experienced, and at a more conscious level; and (d) the length of time of the painful death, due to the methods of abortion corresponding to the child's size (one to two hours for saline, one to two days for prostaglandin). Concluding Remarks This should emphatically not be taken as an argument for early abortions. There should be no abortions! For there should be no killing of innocent children. Late abortions simply add a new horror: greater pain. For the same reason, even if all abortions were painless, they would all be wrong. The pain of abortion simply adds a new evil to the evil of killing an innocent child. All this [pain] is happening right now, in our own cities, towns, and neighborhoods. If we avert our gaze from this ocean of pain - if we fail to acknowledge the excruciating death agonies of one and a half million tiny victims every year in the U.S. alone (one abortion every twenty-one seconds) - if we close our ears to all those "silent screams," how can we still call ourselves compassionate human beings?19 Here is a study that shows women who have had abortions may have a higher mortality rate: http://www.afterabortion.org/news/deaths_smj.htmlSome of the effects on the mothers: http://www.prolife.com/ABORT12.htmlAlso, hormonal birth control is not the only form. Condoms (even vegan ones) and diaphragms are affordable without medical insurance - these fall under the category of barrier type birth control. For medical reasons, I personally cannot take hormonal birth control. My husband and I do not want to get pregnant right now, so we use other methods in order to avoid pregnancy. But we also know that no method is 100% effective (abortion included), and there make the conscious choice of having sex knowing that pregnancy is a possible result. Abstinence does not equal not having sex for the rest of your life. Rather it is about waiting to enjoy an act that can result in a new human life until one is able to properly care for that human. Of course there are unfortunate circumstances where pregnant women are not able to properly care for a baby. (This can be due to rape, the death of a spouse, just plain bad decision making, etc.). In this case abortion is not the only solution. There are many wonderful organizations that will care for these pregnant women all the way through the pregnancy and if desired facilitate the adoption process. The women who choose to rely on one of these organizations experience the joy of having nourished their unborn baby and made a decision that gives the child the best chance at a wonderful life. These women also gain strong friends and mentors - people they may have been lacking when they first became pregnant. How much better is this than killing one's own baby while risking serious medical and mental health complications? One such organization: http://www.pregnancycenters.org/In summary, one cannot with 100% certainty say that the fetus is non-sentient and cannot feel pain. Rather there is much evidence to show otherwise. Wouldn't the more ethical stance here be to protect the fetuses? Especially considering that most abortions do not involve pregnancies due to rape or dire health risks for the mother, while all abortions involve the death of an innocent and likely pain-feeling human and significant risk to the mother.
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Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:38 pm
I am an Animal Rights supporter and pro-life. I find it strange that people can be both in favour of A/R and pro-abortion, or pro-life and opposed to A/R. confused
To me the two issues are remarkably similar - animals who suffer at the hands of humans (e.g. in a factory farm) cannot speak up for themselves or their interests - unborn humans are helpless and cannot speak up for themselves either. It's up to compassionate people to defend their rights.
I believe a woman's right to do what she likes with her body should never include harming/killing another person - even if that person is growing inside her.
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Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:24 pm
Thanks, Badger. I think you are absolutely right. Veganlicious, I want to remind you of something you wrote in a different thread: v e g a n l i c i o u s And I'm the crazy one because I believe all life is valuable; all creatures deserve to live a life free of suffering, pain, torture, and senseless murder. If you truly believe this, then would't you also believe that pre-birth humans deserve to live a life free of suffering, pain, torture, and senseless murder? I'm just looking for a little consistency here.
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Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:31 pm
momomuki Thanks, Badger. I think you are absolutely right. Veganlicious, I want to remind you of something you wrote in a different thread: v e g a n l i c i o u s And I'm the crazy one because I believe all life is valuable; all creatures deserve to l ive a life free of suffering, pain, torture, and senseless murder. If you truly believe this, then would't you also believe that pre-birth humans deserve to live a life free of suffering, pain, torture, and senseless murder? I'm just looking for a little consistency here. First of all, none of your sources are unbiased. I really don't think pro-life organizations outweigh the findings of the American Medical Association, the British Medical Association, and countless other unbiased groups. Fetuses aren't "living a life." They're not suffering or tortured because they can't feel pain and aren't sentient. Murder is also killing an innocent being. Since a fetus is not sentient, it cannot have intention. Without intention, you can be neither good or evil, malevolent or innocent. The links you also provided citing that women die more often after abortions were also biased. There is no scientific evidence to support "post-abortion syndrome" which there is evidence supporting postpartum depression. [url=http://www.who.int/features/qa/12/en/index.html]World Health Organization[/url] Every minute, at least one woman dies from complications related to pregnancy or childbirth – that means 529 000 women a year. In addition, for every woman who dies in childbirth, around 20 more suffer injury, infection or disease – approximately 10 million women each year. Five direct complications account for more than 70% of maternal deaths: haemorrhage (25%), infection (15%), unsafe abortion (13%), eclampsia (very high blood pressure leading to seizures – 12%), and obstructed labour (8%). While these are the main causes of maternal death, unavailable, inaccessible, unaffordable, or poor quality care is fundamentally responsible. They are detrimental to social development and wellbeing, as some one million children are left motherless each year. These children are 10 times more likely to die within two years of their mothers' death. Pregnancy is more risky than abortions. Where abortion is illegal, more women die because they can't obtain a safe one.
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:48 am
The first source I quoted quotes a couple reputable health sources. You might look over it a bit more closely. Quote: The Amicus Curiae states: In the sixth to seventh weeks, nerves and muscles work together for the first time. If the area of the lips, the first to become sensitive to touch, is gently stroked, the child responds by bending the upper body to one side and making a quick backward motion with his arms. . . In the ninth and tenth weeks, the child's activity leaps ahead. Now if the forehead is touched, he may turn his head away and pucker up his brow and frown.... In the same week, the entire body becomes sensitive to touch. This Amicus Curiae was filed by Professors and Fellows of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology. Quote: The American Medical News reprint reports, "Physicians know that fetuses feel pain ... because [among other things]: Nerves connecting the spinal cord to peripheral structures have developed between six to eight weeks. Adverse reactions to stimuli are observed between eight and 10 weeks.... You can tell by the contours on their faces that aborted fetuses feel pain," added obstetrician Matthew Bulfin, M.D., of Lauderdale by the Sea, Florida. He described the case of a 25-year old woman administered a prostaglandin abortion, who expelled her fetus in the middle of the night. Before hospital nurses arrived, she witnessed "the thrashing around and gruesome trauma on his face, and knew that the fetus had suffered." The American Medical News is a publication of the American Medical Association - one of the sources you too referenced. Clearly there is a lack of consensus among the medical experts in this field. The point is, that there is no conclusive proof that fetuses do not feel pain. There are only best guesses - likely all of which are biased. Who is without an opinion on this topic? If we are at all concerned about not harming a living being, then shouldn't we err on the side of caution? Some definitions (according to the New Oxford American Dictionary): innocent |ˈinəsənt| adjective 1 not guilty of a crime or offense : the arbitrary execution of an innocent man | he was innocent of any fraud. • [ predic. ] ( innocent of) without; lacking : a street quite innocent of bookstores. • [ predic. ] ( innocent of) without experience or knowledge of : a man innocent of war's cruelties. 2 [ attrib. ] not responsible for or directly involved in an event yet suffering its consequences : an innocent bystander. 3 free from moral wrong; not corrupted : an innocent child. • simple; naive : she is a poor, innocent young creature. 4 not intended to cause harm or offense; harmless : an innocent mistake. life |līf| noun ( pl. lives |līvz|) 1 the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death : the origins of life.
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:52 am
Cards on the table: I'm a pro-choice activist. I'm president of my university's pro-choice group, which is a chapter of a national pro-choice youth organization. My veganism and my pro-choice stance are ethically reconcilable, and in fact complement one another. It's this simple -- I believe animals, human and non-human, have the right to live without outside human will determining what will be done with their bodies. We're doing the same thing when we keep dairy cows and when we tell women that they cannot have abortions. We are taking away the bodily autonomy of both creatures. Why does the fetus not hold this right itself? Because it does not feel pain. This is much less up for debate than you seem to think. The American Medical Association Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester. sourceBut I'll play along anyway, for sake of argument; let's say the fetus can feel pain before the third trimester, and before viability. If a fetus cannot survive outside the uterus, it is still reasonable to come down on the side of the pregnant woman. If she does not want to be pregnant, she shouldn't have to be. The fetus is not conscious, that much is certain -- if pain reactions occur in fetuses, they are reflex, and not indicative of real pain. The woman is totally in the right if she wants to choose her own bodily autonomy over the tenuous claim to "life" of a fetus. Perhaps we differ in that I don't think life is inherently sacred? The fact that this particular clump of cells has the ability to become a born child doesn't inspire any particular awe in me. I don't buy that fetuses feel pain or that even if they do, women should have to undergo forced pregnancy because of it. Just because they are living is no reason for me to not kill a rapist or an attacking dog -- both threaten my bodily integrity, and I'll damn well defend it.
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:34 am
CC, thanks for the reply. i think we'll end up agreeing to disagree on this topic. But for the record, as far as arguments from the pro-abortion side go, yours has been the most reasonable I have heard. One response to something you posted though... Quote: Just because they are living is no reason for me to not kill a rapist or an attacking dog -- both threaten my bodily integrity, and I'll damn well defend it. I question the analogy here, because a woman - in the vast majority of cases - has the ability to prevent the unwanted pregnancy in the first place. I think a more reasonable analogy would be a person first uncaging a dog clearly labeled "dangerous" and the killing the dog in "self defense." Or perhaps locking oneself in a room with a known rapist. Otherwise, I believe we do insult to both a woman's intelligence as well as her ability to make wise decisions and act reasonably. Most of us (women) understand the human reproductive system enough to know that the biological purpose of having sex is to "make babies." Most of us also understand the different kinds of birth control and the efficacy and risks thereof. Most of us also are not completely controlled by an instinctual desire to "mate" and can be quite happy and fulfilled even if we do not act on natural "urges" every time they arise. But anyways, thanks for the argument.
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Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:20 pm
I agree with most of what momomuki is saying. Of course, I have also questioned whether or not preventing a pregnancy is comparable to an abortion. In both cases a potential life is being ended. I am fully aware of the opposing argument, but I feel as if life and death are things too important for humans to be responsible for. Though they are responsible for the initial creation. As I have said, I have questioned myself about these issues and have yet to come to a definite conclusion. I express my opinion for the sake of discussion. Please do not attack me too harshly. sweatdrop
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Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:58 am
momomuki And it's not about a woman's own body. I have no problem with a woman's decision to maim herself. She could chop off a finger, bruise herself, poison herself, cut herself, starve herself, or drown herself, and that is her right. But clearly a pre-birth baby is not a part of the mother. It is within the mother, it is dependent on the mother - but it is not the mother. So... You'd support the ending of a pregnancy so long as it was the result of the pregnant woman committing suicide to avoid pregnancy? Seriously, location IS everything with this issue. You said it right there yourself. IT is within the WOMAN. IT is dependent on the WOMAN. You cannot enslave her body, as if she is nothing more than an incubator. There are times when, yes, location is everything. Imagine this: There is someone who needs a kidney. This nice lady down the street is a match. She's healthy, but she doesn't want to undergo surgery, as all surgeries have their risks. Sure, she could totally save this persons life. This person, in effect, is dependent on her to save their life. Is she obligated to save their life, according to some grand moral scheme? Of course not. Pregnancy comes with MANY risks. It's obscene to force someone to continue facing those risks who doesn't want to, for whatever reasons they have to fear those risks. momomuki As far as the problems of overpopulation, expense, and medical complications, there are solutions that are far more effective and less risky than abortion. These include but are not limited to - abstinence, birth control, and the removal of reproductive organs. I still don't understand how we can guiltlessly say we value our own convenience over the life of another person - especially when it is our lifestyle and decisions that cause the "inconvenience" in the first place. It's pretty dang disgusting. Someone else already pointed out that abstinence isn't a magical band-aid, and why... After all, most people will give in to those natural urges to have sex; and others do it simply for the emotional bonding with their lover/spouse. They also seemed to have covered all the problems with contraceptives (I refused to say "birth control" when I mean to say "contraceptives. "Birth control" is anything that controls birth, such as elective abortion, condoms, abstinence, rhythm method, etc.) in a very thorough manner; while also speaking up for those who want kids someday. Also, good to see it's our "lifestyle and decisions" which cause the "inconvenience" in the first place. Very charming to all of those of us who have survived rape, suffered through having to discover we were pregnant by the b*****d, then had to schedule an abortion asap. Really, slut-bashing is SO not the way to get people to listen to you... That's one thing those who are anti-choice need to work on if they want respect from other people.
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Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:41 am
I can argue pros and cons to either side of the issue, but here are my thoughts currently.
I do have questions for the pro life side. I'm curious to see what these responses would be.
If woman could no longer abort their children, what would happen to those kids brought into the world and what would be their fate? Or, if the baby would be aborted for health issues to the mother, would you sacrifice one life for another?
Women get abortions for a variety of reasons. But in general, its because the woman does not want the baby (for health or personal reasons). If these women who were forced to have these babies didn't want them in the first place, whats to prevent these children from growing up neglected or resented. Those are not healthy feelings. Before anyone says adoption, that is a very unstable system and an overload of women giving up babies they couldn't abort, could throw the whole system off balance, and even have economic or political repercussions. Another thing that should be taken into account is the case of teenage pregnancies or rape victims who get pregnant. In some societies (even the US in some parts) this "status" leaves a stigma on the mother and the child. Is it fair for the unborn child to be labeled like that because of its mother, or is it fair for the mother to suffer through that (sorry for this other question) while trying to raise a child (she wouldn't have her community's support)?
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