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Late term abortion leads to arrest... of the woman. WTF??

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_Morgane Fay_

PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:01 am


I know the abortion debate on Gaia tends to center on the situation in the US - quite understandably, given its userbase.

However, recently this move by the Dutch Prosecution has managed to make me severely fear for the future of full availability of abortion. The only account of the story I found in English is found in the first link; the second one is a much more detailed source, but sadly in Dutch. Babelfish might be useful.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/12/06/europe/EU-GEN-Netherlands-Abortion-Arrest.php
http://www.womenonwaves.nl/

Summarizing: a 24-year old woman obtained an abortion in Spain, which under Dutch law was (probably - I'll come back to that) illegal. Elective abortion is legal until 24 weeks gestation, emergency abortions for medical reasons may occur over the entire course of the pregnancy.
In the case of a woman applying for an elective abortion in the later stage of the legal period, the fetal age is determined by the size and weight of the fetus. Given variations in size and development, a 22-week fetus could very well have the size of a 26-week old fetus.
The woman in question maintains that she obtained her abortion at 22 weeks, whereas the prosecution sides with the OB/GYN who saw her and who claims the fetus was a 26-week one.

In Spain, however, abortion laws differ. Elective abortion is an option throughout the pregnancy, but for a third trimester abortion to be legal, psychiatric evaluation is required to prove "mental anguish" of some sort.

Now - for any crime perpetrated abroad to become a punishable offense under Dutch law, the act must be prohibited in both countries.
Arguably, such is not the case here. In Spain, the procedure was perfectly legal. In the Netherlands, it may have been. Essentially, prosecution is unable to prove it was even a punishable offense in the Netherlands, let alone a doubly punishable offense, as is required for prosecution here.

I hope you're still with me after that wall of text wink

Two things bother me greatly in this travesty of justice:
- The blatant willingness of the prosecution to twist existing laws to prosecute a woman in a desperate situation (her being Muslim and putting her at risk for revenge from family members should they find out she had sex at all)
- The fact that it was the woman who was prosecuted, in stead of the doctor performing the procedure. Isn't the doctor the perpetrator wherever an illegal abortion is performed?

And perhaps thirdly the discomforting ease with which one religiously oriented cabinet succeeds in nibbling at rights we thought were firmly established. It's a reminder to never stop the fight for our rights.

Am I right in fearing for the future of fairness and freedom?

Anyway. Offering you the European perspective, as it were.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:25 pm


Wait, so a Dutch woman goes to Spain to get an abortion, and when she gets back home she can be punished under the law where the abortion didn't even occur?

Please tell me I read that wrong sad

MipsyKitten
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:32 pm


Well, I don't think either should be punished, obviously, but I do think that it should have been the woman if either were punished because she broke the law of her country, while the doctor was just doing his job.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:29 am


MipsyKitten
Wait, so a Dutch woman goes to Spain to get an abortion, and when she gets back home she can be punished under the law where the abortion didn't even occur?

Please tell me I read that wrong sad


Well, she can't be punished, legally, but the prosecution is trying damn hard.

The fact that they are even trying to gets to me.

_Morgane Fay_


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:43 am


_Morgane Fay_
MipsyKitten
Wait, so a Dutch woman goes to Spain to get an abortion, and when she gets back home she can be punished under the law where the abortion didn't even occur?

Please tell me I read that wrong sad


Well, she can't be punished, legally, but the prosecution is trying damn hard.

The fact that they are even trying to gets to me.


Odd question, if they were able to detain her, would united nations step in to clear things out, or is it that some people want her arrested and the others think that she shouldn't be?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:57 am


ottery
_Morgane Fay_
MipsyKitten
Wait, so a Dutch woman goes to Spain to get an abortion, and when she gets back home she can be punished under the law where the abortion didn't even occur?

Please tell me I read that wrong sad


Well, she can't be punished, legally, but the prosecution is trying damn hard.

The fact that they are even trying to gets to me.


Odd question, if they were able to detain her, would united nations step in to clear things out, or is it that some people want her arrested and the others think that she shouldn't be?


Prosecution wants her arrested. Has had her in solitary confinement for 4 weeks already, in fact - from which she's been released after media pressure. The court case and the charges haven't been repealed, though.
Obviously, prosecution believes they are able to prove that her abortion was illegal under both Dutch and Spanish law - which is absolutely doubtful. Should they succeed in convincing the court of such, though, then she may be lawfully sentenced to jail time.

Now, there are multiple options for appeal within the Netherlands, and as this case involves two different European nations, it could be made into a European Court of Justice case, too.

As far as the UN goes, I believe they only deal with human rights cases, but I admit I'm not very well informed as to that.

With regards to what 20 Shades of Crazy mentioned: I'm actually not 100% of any precedents in this case. I'm appalled by the fact the woman is prosecuted and not the doctor, but I'm not sure if that feeling is justified by precedents. Aren't doctors the ones being prosecuted, usually?

_Morgane Fay_


PhaedraMcSpiffy

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:05 am


_Morgane Fay_


Two things bother me greatly in this travesty of justice:
...
- The fact that it was the woman who was prosecuted, in stead of the doctor performing the procedure. Isn't the doctor the perpetrator wherever an illegal abortion is performed?


It seems perfectly reasonable to me. Remember, this was an elective procedure. The woman chose to do it. The doctor is guillty, too, but the woman knew what she was doing. Lifers often say they want the doctors, not the women, to be punished if abortion becomes illegal. They claim that the woman was a vicitm.This attitude shows a complete lack of understanding and respect for a woman's ability to think for herself and make her own decisions. Furthermore, it scapegoats abortion providers.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:00 am


Interesting point, Phaedra.
Honestly, I hadn't thought of it that way - and didn't even know pro-lifers advocated punishment of the doctor only, in fact.
Anway, my reasoning went more along the lines of: while both are legally at fault, the doctor is the one breaking the rules and regulations set to protect their profession and practice - not the woman. For her it's just a matter of self-determination, in the end. After all, should she proceed to induce a spontaneous abortion herself, she wouldn't be prosecuted either.

The "victim" line of thinking did not come into it where my reasoning was concerned - but I agree with your view insofar that punishing doctors for performing the abortion is going to make them the scapegoats.
Depending on how severe their punishment is, it could endanger their creed to do everything in their power to help the patient; if they're afraid to chance performing an abortion, that is.

_Morgane Fay_


Cynical Beast

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:36 am


Sadly the Christian/Jewish world is biased against Muslims. She wanted an abortion and she should of been able to get one. Big deal she got one in Spain. It is legal and the OB/GYN should be on her side, why would he want to stop her from getting an abortion? I just don't understand. If I put a tent on a beach in Vietnam (it is illegal to put tents up here) then when I go home should I be fined? Nope. If I cross the border into another state with no parental consent laws and get an abortion. Should I get punished? I don't think so because no one can determine why I didn't want my parents to know. The Muslim people are going to hate this woman because of this OB/GYN and she is at risk because if Muslims are reading this she is at risk for an 'honor killing' and theese people are turning her into a whore, who can't make her own decisions. What is the world coming to???
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:56 am


Well, the fact that she's a muslim (or of Moroccan origin, at least - I can't be fully sure she's a practicing muslim as well) is irrelevant to the situation. It's about what's permissible under Dutch law. The procedure performed was legal in Spain - therefore prosecution should never have taken place.

Honour killings aren't that prevalent, thankfully, and you've got to take into account that there's a wide variety of how strict muslim families are. The fact that she's from a muslim family and pregnant doesn't automatically mean that she would be killed, should they find out. Of course, given the fact that she went to such lengths to obtain an abortion does indicate that her family would be less than happy if they did find out - but again, there really is too little information about her situation to make any statements about it.

Her anonymity has been ensured throughout the media coverage so far, by the way.

_Morgane Fay_

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