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Stellar Green

PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:40 am


This is just to clarify. I'm good with wa/ga on certain things, and still confused on others.

For example.
Watashi wa suki desu.
That means I like myself.
Watashi ga suki desu.
Does that also mean I like myself?
I think it does... But do either of them mean that I like whatever the other obvious subject is?

Of course, saying that would be adding more than I need to the sentence. The thing is I've seen someone that made the mistake of saying one of those (I can't remember now) which wasn't what they were trying to say, and it got me thinking because I'm not 100% sure on that.

The other thing is I'm just curious about forms...
I've been learning the -te form, and I don't get it. When am I actually supposed to use it? That's what confuses me.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:15 pm


Watashi wa suki desu - Means
Edit: Due to what BlackxWhite said:
Means I Like or I Like it.. Cuz your not pointing to something else so it doesnt mean i like myself
- As in thats the meaning.. no problem at all.

Watashi ga suki desu - Means "I Like"
Edit: You Must Put Jibun to make it "I Like Myself"
- Same meaning but Ga is used in expressing something thats in ur opinion.

Example:
Kore wa Ichigo ga oishii desu - Means "This Strawberry is Delicious For Me"
- In that Sentence,Ga Indicates that The Strawberry is Delicous FOR ME (In Opinion)

So Lets go back..

Jibun Means Myself.. Maybe lets add Jibun to make it more clearly.
Watashi wa jibun ga suki desu - I Like MySelf
Let see if it Fits

Watashi wa-jibun ga-suki desu
I-Myself-Like

Japanese have Word Order Form
So it would be like this

Common:
Subject-Object-Verb
or
Object-Subject-Verb (as long as the verb stays at the end)

Since there is no Verb in this Case..
Desu is always on the Last And Like is would be before Desu


Watashi wa Jibun ga Suki Desu - I Like Myself

Try to look at my basic japanese guide.. You will see about the Particles

Shizuka ni Hikari


black.x.white

PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:46 pm


I'm not sure about this, but I don't think "watashi wa suki desu" means "I like myself" at all. I think the translation would be more like "I like (it)."

E.g.:
Person A: Watashi wa neko ga daikirai!
(I hate cats!)
Person B: Sou desu ka? Watashi wa, suki.
(Is that so? I like them.)

Although I do think that Shizuka ni Hikari's suggestion of using "watashi wa jibun ga suki" would be the clearest statement ^^;
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:09 am


black.x.white
I'm not sure about this, but I don't think "watashi wa suki desu" means "I like myself" at all. I think the translation would be more like "I like (it)."

E.g.:
Person A: Watashi wa neko ga daikirai!
(I hate cats!)
Person B: Sou desu ka? Watashi wa, suki.
(Is that so? I like them.)

Although I do think that Shizuka ni Hikari's suggestion of using "watashi wa jibun ga suki" would be the clearest statement ^^;


I Didn't Think of that ^^ I Like it would be more Clearly to Watashi wa suki desu.. I Like or I Like it..

And you Must Put Desu on Person B ^^ Cause Desu Means It or Is

Shizuka ni Hikari


Hermonie Urameshi

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:05 am


desu does not mean it, it means is and na adjectives cannot stand with out it when used as a verb.

You can use jibun, pretty much like watashi, boku, atashi, etc.

wa marks the topic/subject; in the first example you are marking the subject-the one who is doing the verb, likes.
ga marks subjects and some objects and does a few other things which are not needed to be known for this. In the second example you are marking the object with ga because certain adjectives and verbs need ga instead of wo. The object is the one being liked.

Get it now?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:45 pm


Hermonie Urameshi
desu does not mean it, it means is and na adjectives cannot stand with out it when used as a verb.

I believe it can be excluded in an informal setting whether a na-adjective is there or not, just like it can be anywhere else =/ And suki isn't being used as a verb, it's still being used as an adjective.

black.x.white


Hermonie Urameshi

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:58 pm


It's still conjugated as a verb. My teacher said that you still need da with na adjectives used as verbs.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:55 pm


It can be it or is

Shizuka ni Hikari


black.x.white

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:27 am


Hermonie Urameshi
It's still conjugated as a verb. My teacher said that you still need da with na adjectives used as verbs.

If it were conjugated as a verb, wouldn't it be suku/suite/sukimasu?

And with all due respect to your teacher, I've heard and seen "suki" being used without da or desu.

Shizuka ni Hikari: desu is to be.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:26 am


burning_eyes

My teacher is Japanese. You're going to argue with a native on this? Adjectives conjugate on desu/da and can have other auxilary verbs added to it. Sometimes in anime and manga, na adjectives will leave out the da, but that doesn't always mean it's correct.

Hermonie Urameshi

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black.x.white

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:31 pm


Incorrect, or informal? If it was "wrong", then why would it even be there? The people who make anime and manga are Japanese, too. But regardless of that, I've heard it suki used without a copula in the real world as well (I was in Japan, by the way).

So even if it weren't correct in the strictest sense, you can't say it's not accepted =/
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:21 pm


Hermonie Urameshi
It's still conjugated as a verb. My teacher said that you still need da with na adjectives used as verbs.

I think you're confusing "verb" with "predicate."

There are three possible types of predicates in Japanese: verbal, nominal and adjectival.

Suki would fall under nominal, meaning it can be found in one of these forms (I don't think this is exhaustive, but these are definitely the major ones):

Suki de gozaimasu (keigo form)
Suki desu (formal)
Suki de aru (I suppose this is technically informal, but it's more of a written form)
Suki da (blunt/masculine informal)
Suki (gentle/feminine informal)

It should be noted that the copula technically does not mean "is" (or "it" for that matter, as you said yourself. I'm not sure where that is even coming from), if I recall correctly, "copula" is a logic term that pretty much means it marks that something equals something else.

What constitutes grammatical correctness is very debatable, but dropping "da" in informal speech is a very common practice (we're not just talking anime and manga), and certainly is common enough to be talked about in textbooks, whether or not a Japanese child might get corrected for doing this in an essay (really, you don't even use "desu" in formal writing either).

That suki can be said without a da doesn't mean it's exactly the same as adjectivals, which don't take on "da" in informal speech, whether it's masculine/blunt or feminine/gentle. For example, you can't say "suki wa yo" like you can say "ookii wa yo" in feminine speech. It would just be "suki yo."

-okonomiyaki o konomu-


Hermonie Urameshi

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:18 pm


No it technically doesn't mean is, but that's what it is most commonly translated as.

Books, teachers, websites all say verb, but yes, correctly they are predicate adjectives when used this way. (I'm usually a grammar nazi, but I'm more lenient when it comes to some foreign languages.) I've never heard suki by itself; always with the copula or with an auxiliary verb. I'm going to ask somewhere else to be sure on that, but I certainly haven't.

And it is still conjugated as a verb on the copula:
suki desu
suki deshita
suki ja arimasen
suki ja arimasen deshita

suki da
suki datta
suki janai
suki janakatta


etc.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:42 pm


Well, from my own experience, I can say that dropping "da" is a very common practice. In fact, when it's a question, "da" is generally (if not always) dropped in informal speech. You don't say "suki da?" you just say "suki?"

Here are some excerpts from my textbook (Japanese: The Spoken Language Part 1 by Eleanor Harz Jorden and Mari Noda, which, say what one will about the romaji, is one of the best Japanese grammar resources available due to its thoroughness) that goes into it a bit:

Quote:
Not also that direct-style verbals and adjectivals form questions simply by adding question intonation; but in the parallel pattern for the nominal predicates, is again lost:

dekîru + /?/ > dekîru? 'is it possible?'
îi + /?/ > îi? 'is it all right?' but
hontoo da + /?/ > hontoo? '[is it] true?'

may also be dropped in sentence-final position, or before most sentence-particles. In other words, the direct-style equivalent of Sôo desu. maybe be Sôo da. or Sôo.; of Sôo desu ne!, either Sôo da ne! or Sôo ne!; but of sôo desu kedo, only sôo da kedo (since kedo is not a sentence-particle
(Pg 226)

Quote:
5. The occurrence of direct-style verbals and adjectivals before yo and nê(e) is only slightly blunt within casual-style. With direct-style nominal predicates, there is a greater distinction between blunt- and gentle-style: X da yo and X da nê(e) are markedly blunt; X yo and X nê(e), with dropped, are more gentle.
(Pg 22 cool

As far as it being conjugated as a verb, I guess that depends on one's own analysis. My book has a different explanation for what's happening, which does seem to be pretty linguistically sound, but it's really not that important. smile

By the way, I do want to have the disclaimer that I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything. smile

-okonomiyaki o konomu-


Hermonie Urameshi

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:47 pm


Ok. So far I've only heard suki without da. Sorry, but since I don't know your level, I'm going to look it up as well.

Once you get to know me you'll see that arguing is sometimes my way of learning. xp
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