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 Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:03 pm
We're starting this topic all over again.
We can try to be more civil. A small suggestion: If you do not think you can discuss feminism without getting too emotionally involved, you might need to take a break from the computer for a little while. Moderator decisions are not up for open discussion and defamation of anyone's characters should not be allowed. Let I remind you that ad hominems are illogical inconsistencies. If this can't be agreed upon then this topic will have to be closed and another one cannot be made.
So, has the women's movement gone too far?
My opinion is that it hasn't, really. It's probably taken some steps back. But that's my opinion. Some people really think it's overblown. Have at it, ya'll.
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:23 pm
It has not gone far enough.
I wasn't in the other thread so I don't know what happened but I am assuming you meant to not get emotional in an attack way.
Because I might get a little emotional here.
There are some days when I just want to scream, to give up basically.
My whole life I have been told that I am only a failure and always will be.
As many of you might know, I am the daughter of a teenage mother.
My mother also had to complicate things by fighting with my father, keeping me away from him. Though the worst damage done to me was by my now ex step father. He was a sexist, child hating a*****e.
He abused me for the majority of my childhood. Turned my own mother against me with his controlling and brain washing ways.
Ostracized by my own 'family', I had a very rough initiation into teenage-hood. I'm honestly surprised I didn't commit suicide at some point. Thanks to my ex step father I hated everything about myself, and thanks to pre-teen girls, I hated everything about my own body even more.
I hid the fact that I had started my period for 6 months when I was 11. I eventually had to tell when my mother noticed her pads started disappearing. She was stupid enough to believe I was doing something stupid with them - the fact that I had started menstruating never even entered her dense head. So she told my ex step father about it, and he beat me. After that I didn't tell her for almost 3 months out of fear.
Why am I telling you this? Just some background information.
I still have some extreme self esteem problems and I am still ashamed of my body/sexuality. People mistake me for a prude sometimes because I'm one of those girls who never wears shorts/tank tops or anything remotely revealing. I even get paranoid if my bra straps/outline show through my shirt even a little bit.
I also have a fear of men.
It's no longer as bad as it used to be. At one point, should one of my male teachers were to do something simple as hand me some papers, I would flinch. I've gotten better at not flinching, even though I sometimes randomly do and that makes me feel so ashamed. I don't know if I'll ever be able to meet people's eyes as I talk to them though, and being in a small area with a man, like one of my teachers makes my heart race - and not in a good way~
So already damaged I get to face today's sexist standards. Great huh?
8th grade, freshman & sophomore year were horrible. Those happened to be the years my mother's relationship to my ex step father started taking a turn for the worst, and I was a convenient scape goat for their anger.
Somewhere along the way, my tear ducts happen to become hardwired to my anger. Not a good thing. At school should I have become angry at anything, if we were debating in class, or someone was harassing me, I could only stutter and cry mad tears which in turned earned the jeers of my male classmates.
Or comments of "DON'T LISTEN TO HER, SHE MUST BE ON HER PERIOD!"
Why is it that our society expects females to be so weak that they always cry, yet when they do once or twice they are seen as foolish beings only fit to be mocked or not taken seriously? Or that no girls really get angry about things and raise their voices - I mean they must just be hormonal
I've been called every word in the book by my male peers. whore, slut, skank, c**t etc. All relating to sexuality, yet ironically I'm one of the least out worldly sexual persons. And even more maddening is the general acceptance to say things like "Get back in the kitchen/ Make me a sandwich!" "She can't do it because she's a woman!" "Why should women be on the front lines? They'd just cry about broken nails and dirt!" "Women don't deserve to be payed as much as a man, I mean they get all the perks as it is!"
Perks? What perks?
All I see is a glass ceiling. neutral
Today as me and my step mother were pouring over a map of the college campus I am to attend, I notice that they had a strand of woods near where my dorm hall is, inside I though "How nice, I bet that will be real relaxing to take a hike through." but the words out of my stepmothers mouth were very far from what I had been thinking.
"I don't want you to ever go into those woods alone. You hear me? You'll get mugged or raped! Don't even cut through them as a shortcut if your running late to class, and for god sakes don't be alone outside after dark!Maybe we should get your father or grandfather to teach you how to shoot a hand gun."
Yeah, that's the world we women live in.
Oh and my favorite- being called a Femnazi for standing up for women's rights.
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Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:38 am
Trite~Elegy I hid the fact that I had started my period for 6 months when I was 11. I eventually had to tell when my mother noticed her pads started disappearing. She was stupid enough to believe I was doing something stupid with them - the fact that I had started menstruating never even entered her dense head. So she told my ex step father about it, and he beat me. After that I didn't tell her for almost 3 months out of fear. s**t.... starting at 11 is already hard enough... If my family had done something like that to me, I'd probably be traumatized for life... Jeez, I thought being forced to tell my Dad before my Mom and then having my family embarass me with "You're a woman, now!" was hard enough... Why the hell would you beat someone for that?! Quote: I also have a fear of men. It's no longer as bad as it used to be. At one point, should one of my male teachers were to do something simple as hand me some papers, I would flinch. I've gotten better at not flinching, even though I sometimes randomly do and that makes me feel so ashamed. I don't know if I'll ever be able to meet people's eyes as I talk to them though, and being in a small area with a man, like one of my teachers makes my heart race - and not in a good way~ Sadly, I think a lot of women have a fear of men, but usually not so severe as that. You can't help but be suspicious any time a strange man pays you "too much" attention or when you're alone with them... And the sad part is, it's NOT unreasonable paranoia... How ******** up is that? "And don't you find it sad That we can't even say hello 'Cause you're a man and I am a woman And the sun is getting low?" -Ani DiFranco Quote: So already damaged I get to face today's sexist standards. "Damaged" evokes thoughts of a certain a*****e lifer's famous quote... But, I have to admit, there is some truth to it. Abuse does damage people. But it doesn't make their opinions invalid! Quote: Somewhere along the way, my tear ducts happen to become hardwired to my anger. Not a good thing. At school should I have become angry at anything, if we were debating in class, or someone was harassing me, I could only stutter and cry mad tears which in turned earned the jeers of my male classmates. Ugh, that was birth for me. I always cried when I was angry. It's not as bad now, but I still cry when I'm angry and it's utterly humiliating. Quote: Or comments of "DON'T LISTEN TO HER, SHE MUST BE ON HER PERIOD!" Why is it that our society expects females to be so weak that they always cry, yet when they do once or twice they are seen as foolish beings only fit to be mocked or not taken seriously? Or that no girls really get angry about things and raise their voices - I mean they must just be hormonalRight. 'Cause girls don't ever actually have feeling or get angry! It's always just hormones. It's almost like a female equivalent of "boys/men don't cry" in a way. Except it's "girls/women who get angry or cry are PMSing!" Quote: I've been called every word in the book by my male peers. whore, slut, skank, c**t etc. All relating to sexuality, yet ironically I'm one of the least out worldly sexual persons. And even more maddening is the general acceptance to say things like "Get back in the kitchen/ Make me a sandwich!" "She can't do it because she's a woman!" "Why should women be on the front lines? They'd just cry about broken nails and dirt!" "Women don't deserve to be payed as much as a man, I mean they get all the perks as it is!"Perks? What perks? All I see is a glass ceiling. neutral Today as me and my step mother were pouring over a map of the college campus I am to attend, I notice that they had a strand of woods near where my dorm hall is, inside I though "How nice, I bet that will be real relaxing to take a hike through." but the words out of my stepmothers mouth were very far from what I had been thinking. "I don't want you to ever go into those woods alone. You hear me? You'll get mugged or raped! Don't even cut through them as a shortcut if your running late to class, and for god sakes don't be alone outside after dark!Maybe we should get your father or grandfather to teach you how to shoot a hand gun."Yeah, that's the world we women live in. Oh and my favorite- being called a Femnazi for standing up for women's rights. See, this is a problem. We really can't go out for fear of being raped. And if we do, it was our fault! We should have known better! *sigh* It's ******** up... With the world the way it is, I don't see why all decent people don't call themselves feminist. How can you not be? ...Then again, when I think about what that means, it's easy not to be. It means defying all this deeply-ingrained misogynist bullshit in our culture. To be a feminist, you have to un-learn everything society taught you about women and men. You have to learn to have sex on your own terms, that it's not about male conquest and female submission/trade for goods*. You have to learn that your body is not ugly just because it doesn't fit the cookie-cutter standards of models and pornstars, you have to learn to see people as people instead of the labels you attach to their sex. It's radical. defiant, and sometimes dangerous. That's why people are afraid of it. *I don't just mean prostitution. A while back, Feministing posted a picture they found on an abstinence website. It was a diamond with chains wrapped around it, and it said something like "Protect your diamond! Abstinence for a better future!" Seriously. People call girls who like sex whores, but they applaud girls who wait to have sex until they can get a diamond out of it! Sex for pleasure = whore, sex for social status and financial security = ********.
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Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:00 pm
This is slightly off topic and please keep in mind when I say this I mean no disrespect to anyone in the guild. I'm simply asking a question.
Why shouldn't we be able to discuss the moderators actions? (When they involve the guild.)
I understand the mods are here for a reason and they've been trusted with the power and responsibilities given to them for a reason. But I've always thought of this guild as a community and shouldn't we have a say in what goes on around here? I mean without the members this guild would be dead.
So why are we forbidden to criticize or ask the mods to change (or at least re-think) their actions that pertain to the guild?
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Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:27 pm
crystal_pepzi This is slightly off topic and please keep in mind when I say this I mean no disrespect to anyone in the guild. I'm simply asking a question. Why shouldn't we be able to discuss the moderators actions? (When they involve the guild.) I understand the mods are here for a reason and they've been trusted with the power and responsibilities given to them for a reason. But I've always thought of this guild as a community and shouldn't we have a say in what goes on around here? I mean without the members this guild would be dead. So why are we forbidden to criticize or ask the mods to change (or at least re-think) their actions that pertain to the guild? Feel free to contact any of the mods if you have a problem with a fellow guild member, or another mod. I don't know about the others, but Veled, Tragic Christmas, Grip of Death, and myself are probably the most active, so you'd be more likely to get a quick response. I think Grip meant not starting a new thread entitled "X mod sucks" and the like, whenever someone has a problem. Feel free to PM a mod if you have a problem, and it will be dealt with.
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Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:36 pm
MipsyKitten crystal_pepzi This is slightly off topic and please keep in mind when I say this I mean no disrespect to anyone in the guild. I'm simply asking a question. Why shouldn't we be able to discuss the moderators actions? (When they involve the guild.) I understand the mods are here for a reason and they've been trusted with the power and responsibilities given to them for a reason. But I've always thought of this guild as a community and shouldn't we have a say in what goes on around here? I mean without the members this guild would be dead. So why are we forbidden to criticize or ask the mods to change (or at least re-think) their actions that pertain to the guild? Feel free to contact any of the mods if you have a problem with a fellow guild member, or another mod. I don't know about the others, but Veled, Tragic Christmas, Grip of Death, and myself are probably the most active, so you'd be more likely to get a quick response. I think Grip meant not starting a new thread entitled "X mod sucks" and the like, whenever someone has a problem. Feel free to PM a mod if you have a problem, and it will be dealt with. My thread wasn't "OMG GRIP YOU SUCK" it was trying to be more of, hey grip why'd you do this man?! I think Grip is usually cool, but she made me angry. I'm not sorry for writing what I did, I really think that's not something that wasn't public. I mean, the thread was in public long enough for people to see Grip talk down to Setar, so it was an issue we might need to solve publicly. Pms are personal, but what if a lot of members were upset by it? Not saying who's wrong or right, but I'm just kind of iffy about it.
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Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:31 pm
Okay, having read (and agreed with the first poster's point, if not her title), here's what the earlier thread was about:
NOT the women's movement going too far in general, but in ONE specific area, and it was a rant about a professor.
Basically the OP was feeling excluded by her feminist professor, and was put down by her professor for stating that she chose to be a stay at home mother.
I agree that there can sometimes be a feeling of negativity that being a stay at home mother is betraying the feminist movement. It's not often, but it happens, including in this guild, including from some of the most active members. There were some REALLY nice posts in the thread about why I feel that way, and why it's not just "giving in to the patriarchy" for me, as was stated on the previous thread.
So, if this really is a re-do of the previous thread, let's keep it on the old topic- that of how the feminist movement treats SAHM's and how it should treat them.
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Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:06 pm
PhaedraMcSpiffy s**t.... starting at 11 is already hard enough... If my family had done something like that to me, I'd probably be traumatized for life... Jeez, I thought being forced to tell my Dad before my Mom and then having my family embarass me with "You're a woman, now!" was hard enough... Why the hell would you beat someone for that?!
When I finally told her almost nine months later she just said "Oh.." and gave me a dumbstruck look. I remember her trying to say something to me but I just kept turning/walking away from her and finally cried most of the morning away at school.
My ex step father was a b*****d. Being the only child in the house, if anything went wrong or broke it was instantly my fault, even if HE did something and knew he did it, or if my mother had done something and not told him.
Back when we had gotten our first new 'family' desktop and AOL was all the rage, my ex step refused to get AOL because he worked in telecommunications and AOL was on of his company's major competitors, thus we got stuck with a shitty alternative. One day my mom became fed up and put AOL on the computer without telling him. Well I came home the next day from school after my ex step had already been home and found the AOL on the computer. He smacked me around and screamed at me for and hour straight. Then my mother came home and just brushed him off with a "Oh leave her alone, I put the AOL on the computer".
Yeah, I sOoOo had a credit card to order AOL for the computer.
Oh, and he didn't 'believe' in anti-virus protection, so less then a year after we had gotten the desktop it just died from all of the viruses/malware/spyware. I was blamed for breaking the computer. Quote: Sadly, I think a lot of women have a fear of men, but usually not so severe as that. You can't help but be suspicious any time a strange man pays you "too much" attention or when you're alone with them... And the sad part is, it's NOT unreasonable paranoia... How ******** up is that? "And don't you find it sad That we can't even say hello 'Cause you're a man and I am a woman And the sun is getting low?" -Ani DiFranco
It is ******** up. It makes me think about cultures who don't even let women talk to men who are not blood relatives. It's just worsening the divide between women and men and allows for men to get away with bad behavior.
If I can picture in my mind that the guy is a 'boy' they become less frightening to me. Though I still have issues I need to work on, like 5 out of my 6 teachers right now are male, but all of them are just out of college type of teachers, and if I'm in class with like 35 other people, I can find the nerve to debate them etc and feel comfortable to a point, but if I were to say, stay behind after class to ask a question and I'm the only one there, I get little warning signals going off in my head, my pulse goes up, I begin to shake and without noticing it, I start glancing around for an exit.
It's shamming really, to be this afraid of someone who has never caused me harm before. Quote: "Damaged" evokes thoughts of a certain a*****e lifer's famous quote... But, I have to admit, there is some truth to it. Abuse does damage people. But it doesn't make their opinions invalid!
I haven't paid that much attention to the Lifer's in quite awhile, can you say the quote?Quote: Ugh, that was birth for me. I always cried when I was angry. It's not as bad now, but I still cry when I'm angry and it's utterly humiliating.
It sure is. I now just try to dig my finger nails into the palms of my hands. I figure a few drops of blood spilled by myself is better then having someone make me cry. [/control issue] Quote: Right. 'Cause girls don't ever actually have feeling or get angry! It's always just hormones. It's almost like a female equivalent of "boys/men don't cry" in a way. Except it's "girls/women who get angry or cry are PMSing!"
I wish just sometime someone would put a spin on it as "Hey, she can bleed for a week and not die, what about you!"Quote:
See, this is a problem. We really can't go out for fear of being raped. And if we do, it was our fault! We should have known better!
*sigh* It's ******** up... With the world the way it is, I don't see why all decent people don't call themselves feminist. How can you not be? ...Then again, when I think about what that means, it's easy not to be. It means defying all this deeply-ingrained misogynist bullshit in our culture. To be a feminist, you have to un-learn everything society taught you about women and men. You have to learn to have sex on your own terms, that it's not about male conquest and female submission/trade for goods*. You have to learn that your body is not ugly just because it doesn't fit the cookie-cutter standards of models and pornstars, you have to learn to see people as people instead of the labels you attach to their sex. It's radical. defiant, and sometimes dangerous. That's why people are afraid of it.
*I don't just mean prostitution. A while back, Feministing posted a picture they found on an abstinence website. It was a diamond with chains wrapped around it, and it said something like "Protect your diamond! Abstinence for a better future!" Seriously. People call girls who like sex whores, but they applaud girls who wait to have sex until they can get a diamond out of it! Sex for pleasure = whore, sex for social status and financial security = ******** class="clear">
I just though of something, have you've ever read the book series Uglies by Scott Westerfeld?
It goes Uglies, Pretties, Specials, (it was supposed to be a trilogy but he added another book) Extras.
You should read it.
It's not really about about sexism itself, but it is a very interesting read.
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Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:14 pm
That's really freaking sad... I'm sorry, Trite. I hope your life is better now.
I haven't read the series, but I've seen them and heard of them. Maybe I'll read them someday.
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Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:44 pm
PhaedraMcSpiffy That's really freaking sad... I'm sorry, Trite. I hope your life is better now. I haven't read the series, but I've seen them and heard of them. Maybe I'll read them someday.
And yes life is been better than before, my final step would be to cut all ties with my mother, but it's not the time to do that now.
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:26 am
Feminism will never go far enough until you go to any place anywhere on earth, and step outside, only to see women being just as equal and just as powerful as men politically, and vice versa.
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:42 am
PhaedraMcSpiffy See, this is a problem. We really can't go out for fear of being raped. And if we do, it was our fault! We should have known better! Yeah, I went hiking in the back woods behind my house almost all through high school and nothing bad ever happened to me other than maybe a skinned knee, thorn scratches, or falling in the creek. I was reading this retarded thread on the ED that talked about these girls who binge drank and posted pics on their facebook/myspace and stuff. My god, all the retarded replies. Yes means yes, everything else is NO. It doesn't matter if she's drunk, or dancing naked on a pole, shoots heroine, whatever. If people don't like that men who are dragged off to have sex while they're drunk isn't considered rape, then they should speak up about it because unless there's coherent consent, it is rape. The biggest problem I have with the anti-feminists is that most of them claim that the movement is trying to make women better than men, or that it puts men at a lower standard in some regards. Yes, men and women are different, but they should be equally treated and equally compensated for gender-related "issues". If a company doesn't provide leave for single fathers, then they should take it up with the company's legal department. We didn't have the movement handed to us by anyone, so neither should men. If they want fair and equal treatment in areas where they claim they are not treated equally as a women as far as responsibilities, duties, career, etc, then they should take a more active role in their future and stop bitching at us for not doing their work for them.
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:42 am
what happened in the other thread?
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:21 am
Talon-chan what happened in the other thread? I got into a debate with Grip over pornography and how it relates to feminism. After a few posts of debate, Grip locked the thread, not allowing me to post a rebuttal to her final statement and saying that PMs would suffice, when the debate had already been going for about half a page. Oki then posted another thread and refuted Grip's last post, also calling into question her crew status due to her locking of the first thread without even consulting another crew member about it. After a few people (crystal pepzi, RoseRose, myself and Phaedra agreed, Panda also made a post but I can't remember what it was) agreed with Oki about Grip having had made a bad decision as a crew member, Grip deleted both Oki's thread and the first thread, then posted this one.
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:06 am
Lord Setar Talon-chan what happened in the other thread? I got into a debate with Grip over pornography and how it relates to feminism. After a few posts of debate, Grip locked the thread, not allowing me to post a rebuttal to her final statement and saying that PMs would suffice, when the debate had already been going for about half a page. Oki then posted another thread and refuted Grip's last post, also calling into question her crew status due to her locking of the first thread without even consulting another crew member about it. After a few people (crystal pepzi, RoseRose, myself and Phaedra agreed, Panda also made a post but I can't remember what it was) agreed with Oki about Grip having had made a bad decision as a crew member, Grip deleted both Oki's thread and the first thread, then posted this one. And this thread, as per my earlier post, seems to be talking about something COMPLETELY different than the first thread, despite the same title. I thought the first thread was an interesting discussion about something specific... this seems to be about something so general that the vast majority if not everyone in this guild will agree.
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