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 Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:27 pm
Hello, everyone,
I thought I would enter into the discussions here by starting a new topic... I've read most of the responses in a previous discussion about using magic for evil, and I find it interesting that many people are of the mind that evil is subjective. (I'm not sure what I think yet.)
I would like to ask how those of you who would care to respond view morality in magic/energy work/whatever-the-word-is-that-encompasses-all-these-aspects... how do you define morality in your actions and experiences? Is morality in the intention, or in the consequence? Both? Neither? Something else? How do you decide if the action you wish to take is good or evil? (Yes, yes, I know, evil is subjective... but... bah, you must have an idea of what I mean. Ever hate the English langauge?)
Yours in shadow,
--Joeletta
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Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:25 am
Well, when we say "good and evil are subjective", we usually say it in response to someone asking if something is right or wrong. Subjectivity means that we believe everyone defines good and evil differently, and we don't really feel that we have the authority to say if something is "good" or "evil". At least for me, my main motive in saying this is to encourage people to develop their own views of the world, rather than just asking everyone else what they should do and think, and running with that.
That being said, most of us have our own set of morals that are either defined by out religions or our experiences. For instance, I don't really feel like I fit into any religious group, so I don't feel right saying, "I'm Christian" or "I'm Wiccan" or anything. While I don't really label myself with any religion, that doesn't mean I completely disagree with all of the morals of the religions. When you take a close look, many religions overlap here. In short, I basically just go with what I think is right. I don't condone murder (in most circumstances) and there are actions that I definitely believe are evil. I guess that you could say I believe that morality is in the intention.
Er, does that answer any of your questions?
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Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:34 pm
DrasBrisingr Well, when we say "good and evil are subjective", we usually say it in response to someone asking if something is right or wrong. Subjectivity means that we believe everyone defines good and evil differently, and we don't really feel that we have the authority to say if something is "good" or "evil". At least for me, my main motive in saying this is to encourage people to develop their own views of the world, rather than just asking everyone else what they should do and think, and running with that. That being said, most of us have our own set of morals that are either defined by out religions or our experiences. For instance, I don't really feel like I fit into any religious group, so I don't feel right saying, "I'm Christian" or "I'm Wiccan" or anything. While I don't really label myself with any religion, that doesn't mean I completely disagree with all of the morals of the religions. When you take a close look, many religions overlap here. In short, I basically just go with what I think is right. I don't condone murder (in most circumstances) and there are actions that I definitely believe are evil. I guess that you could say I believe that morality is in the intention. Er, does that answer any of your questions? *laughs* Not really. I probably didn't ask it effectively. I understand that many people don't fit into a group (or choose not to squash themselves into a group) which will attempt to define good and evil for them... I say, kudos. I'm wondering if people have formed a method or a personal ruler of what they feel is or is not moral, and how they ahve done so? "I basically just go with what I think is right" is nearer to answering my question, but my question is closer to... well... why do you think something is right or wrong? How do you come to that conclusion?
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Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:08 pm
When it comes to morals, I follow the care perspective rather than the justice perspective. That is, I don't necessarily follow the law or social standards. I do what I can to help the people I love, and if they break a rule, I try to understand what their motives were and base my reaction from that.
For example, if a man were to steal food for his starving family, I would not turn him in. In other words, it depends on who, if anyone is harmed, how they are harmed and what the circumstances were. So it's definitely not black and white.
I try very hard not to use any spell, ritual or energywork to harm someone. sweatdrop I believe that any negativity you send out does come back to you--not by the mighty hand of justice, but by karma in the true meaning of the word. Whatever you do in life comes back to you. When you use your credit card, you get a bill in the mail. Negativity comes back to you in the same way. It's just the natural consequences of your actions.
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Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:53 pm
Joeletta DrasBrisingr Well, when we say "good and evil are subjective", we usually say it in response to someone asking if something is right or wrong. Subjectivity means that we believe everyone defines good and evil differently, and we don't really feel that we have the authority to say if something is "good" or "evil". At least for me, my main motive in saying this is to encourage people to develop their own views of the world, rather than just asking everyone else what they should do and think, and running with that. That being said, most of us have our own set of morals that are either defined by out religions or our experiences. For instance, I don't really feel like I fit into any religious group, so I don't feel right saying, "I'm Christian" or "I'm Wiccan" or anything. While I don't really label myself with any religion, that doesn't mean I completely disagree with all of the morals of the religions. When you take a close look, many religions overlap here. In short, I basically just go with what I think is right. I don't condone murder (in most circumstances) and there are actions that I definitely believe are evil. I guess that you could say I believe that morality is in the intention. Er, does that answer any of your questions? *laughs* Not really. I probably didn't ask it effectively. I understand that many people don't fit into a group (or choose not to squash themselves into a group) which will attempt to define good and evil for them... I say, kudos. I'm wondering if people have formed a method or a personal ruler of what they feel is or is not moral, and how they ahve done so? "I basically just go with what I think is right" is nearer to answering my question, but my question is closer to... well... why do you think something is right or wrong? How do you come to that conclusion? Haha, ok. Yeah. I was kind of distracted when I wrote it anyway. But yeah, um I don't really have any way of deciding what is right and wrong. I guess I just kind of go with my gut. There are a lot of things that society says is wrong, but I don't see any problem with. For instance, last night I wrote a very angry blog post after I was screaming at some woman in Target (don't ask about that, tunnel vision sucks a**), and didn't realize there were kids around me. I apologized to the mother, and she said something to the effect of, "don't worry, they probably don't even realize it. I'd be pissed off, too." But then some other woman came up and bitched at me about, "if those had been my kids, I don't know what I would have done. What you did was terrible..." etc. And I apologized again and told her that I apologized to the mother, and she scoffed and walked away. So instead of bitching to her, I bitched to my blog. Anyway, I got carried away. The point is, I wrote a very angry blog about how it's not my profanity that is ******** up today's kids, it's the fact that all of that s**t is out there, and people like that woman choose to ignore it. If a fifth grader comes home and asks, "Mommy, what's sex?" and the mother says, "We'll talk about that when you're older," she doesn't realize how that ******** up the kid. The kid will then go off and ask their friends, who watched something about it on tv or asked an older sibling or something, and they'll be completely misled. Then, when middle school and high school roll around, they'll start hearing about how great sex and drugs are, and they'll think, "well, Mom won't talk to me about it, so they must be right." Ok, yeah, I'm still really damn bitter. My point in all that is that there are things I just kind of go with my gut and my mind about. Logic tells me that it's not hearing "********" in a Target when you're three that will ******** up the rest of your life, it's the authority figures who don't want to recognize the fact that our generation (and especially the generations below us) are exposed to more than they were at that age. My gut tells me that that woman is probably bitter because her daughter or granddaughter was having premarital sex and her son or grandson occasionally smokes pot. Ok, seriously, I need to stop. Is that any better, minus all the ranting? I know what you're trying to ask now, but there really isn't any sort of defined morals that make me think, "ok, this is evil."
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Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:24 pm
This is a pretty hard issue to tackle. The formation of a moral code is influenced by so many factors that it's almost impossible to really pin down, even in ourselves.
As much as we hate to admit it, part of our morality is influenced by religion, whether it's a guideline or a "what not to do" concept. It's just such a pervasive system that you can't help but attribute something in your codes to the effects of religion. Part of it comes from the intervention of parents, of course, partially as your first exposure to religion or as the major disciplinarians of your childhood, as well as schools. One's education can influence morality, since learning about something can alter your views on it.
Then there are those mental processes that are uniquely yours, perceptions and opinions of reality that help to shape your moral code. When one thinks about it, without MAJOR restrictions by one of the factors, everyone's moral code differs in some way or another.
As far as mine is concerned, it's full of shades of grey. Everything must be taken in context, which is completely different from the black and white that much of this society wishes people to see the world. Such stark contrasts have no bearing on the actual workings of the world.
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Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:00 pm
These are all very interesting responces. Thanks for coming to clarify, too! If anyone else wants to answer my question(s) I would love to listen to them as well, but I just wanted to say thanks to the folks who already responded.
Shadows,
--Joeletta
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Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:04 pm
Azana and Dras have pretty much summed up what I would say about how a question like this usually gets elusive answers.
I try not to define now what I'll think in a situation to come. There are obvious things that I think are easier to define as good or bad, but I think my moral system does mostly consist of grey shades too.
I define morality in my 'life' by what I feel (gut instinct?) it most likely is. I don't usually engage in activities I would find hard to define, and I usually don't think about all the possible consequences of an action. I think morality is mostly in the intention, if the consequences of an action yeild results that are somewhat opposite to a persons intention, I think that would just lead them to try to be more involved in how their actions take effect to achieve the desired results.
I think I'd define an action I take as good or evil based on what its likely to achieve, both most likely and second most likely, what I'd like it to achieve, and how much justification/explaining is/would be needed. Again, I'd go mostly with what I feel it is, and I usually avoid hard to define situations.
Mind you--People change, so beliefs do too, so not only is good and evil subjective, but... you get it.
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