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 Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:02 pm
Okay, let me get down to it: I don't know how to defend myself from my parent's jabs during the holiday season. I know there's a connection between the Christian holiday and the Pagan holiday, but how do I show them (or anyone else who questions my beliefs during this time of year) what they are and how they make sense?
I know sometimes that one person can't change the mind of another, and maybe it's just the me standing up for myself thing (I don't do that quite often at all), but I just want this to be a thread of suggestions given to each other from us about how to keep both sane and in control this holiday season.
So...discuss!
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:14 pm
Very good question, but I wouldn't suggest using older references...they sometimes involved a human sacrifice sweatdrop
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:42 pm
Capt. Kat Very good question, but I wouldn't suggest using older references...they sometimes involved a human sacrifice sweatdrop Just to point out- human sacrifices also happened in Christianity. The Bible, especially the Old Testament, is filled with numerous stories of animal and human sacrifice. God, we are told, likes the pleasing aroma of burning flesh. Animal sacrifice is much more common than human sacrifice, but both occur and are "pleasing to the Lord". I can provide specific examples if anyone wants. ~~~~ As for the holiday stuff- what kind of jabs are you talking about? There are activities and things you can do- alot of it is the same stuff you would do if you were Christian- caroling, sharing joy, volunteering, burning a Yule log, making crafts/gifts, decorating a tree. After all Christmas is based off of Yule- Yule came first. smile You can make these things less Christan God related though, decorate the tree with garlands, bells, and holly, look for carols that are less "Jesus" related, and more geared toward spirituality. One of the best feelings is to join in on a so-called Christian activity, and when they ask why you're joining in, happily/calmly tell them you're just sharing in the joy of the Goddess. smile And watch their reaction. As a side note- my husband and I are going to go volunteer at "Christmas House" this year. Its a religious program that donates toys/gifts to needy family. Just because its Christian, doesn't mean I'm going to avoid it- I still want to help the community. I hope this helps a little.
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:52 pm
Yeah, it does. Like I said before, it's more like I need to stand up for myself more than I don't know my stuff.
But that's a good retort for me to say whenever my mom gives me crap about it again.
"If you're not a Christian then you don't celebrate the Christian holiday of Christmas, do you?"
"No, but I celebrate the God being born again and the Goddess giving us something to look foward to: more sun..."
It is a time of giving, not really a time of taking. We take too much from the world anyway, and should give something back every once in a while. Even if it's just popcorn on a string left outside for birds and deer, or a small, handmade gift to your Christian/ever-indifferent to you mother.
And may the Lord and Lady watch over us all....
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:32 am
don't get any big ideas, they're not going to happen...The point of Christmas is to gather together in the light of love, as the shepherds and wise men gathered before Christ. None of the people under that roof were Christian. The three wise men were Zoroastrian, Hindu, and Buddhist (all would be considered "pagan" in Biblical terms), while Christ's parents and the shepherds were Jewish. But they all gathered before Christ because of who he was, and what he represented to the world: Light, Love, and Hope.
So if your folks want to get all nit-picky on religious matters, they are blackening their hearts against the true meaning behind Christmas.
Still, you could point out that there is reason to doubt a Winter birth. Many people believe that the Gospel of Matthew points to a Spring birth. Also, as Christianity spread throughout the pagan nations, priests would commonly assign holidays to coincide with pagan festivals, and name local gods and goddesses as Saints in the Christian paradigm, so the pagans would be more apt to worship under the banner of Christianity. Especially Celtic pagans, from which most of Wicca is drawn. But like I said... you shouldn't get hung up on religion at a time like this. ...you'll go to hell for what your dirty mind is thinking.
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:20 am
Kareena80 Capt. Kat Very good question, but I wouldn't suggest using older references...they sometimes involved a human sacrifice sweatdrop Just to point out- human sacrifices also happened in Christianity. The Bible, especially the Old Testament, is filled with numerous stories of animal and human sacrifice. God, we are told, likes the pleasing aroma of burning flesh. Animal sacrifice is much more common than human sacrifice, but both occur and are "pleasing to the Lord". I can provide specific examples if anyone wants. I know that but people tend to ignore, or are completely ignorant to that fact. I was just stating a fact.... You could always point out that YUle came first and include some of the traditions (old/new) that seem to follow Christmas.
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:24 pm
Ich bin Nackt don't get any big ideas, they're not going to happen...The point of Christmas is to gather together in the light of love, as the shepherds and wise men gathered before Christ. None of the people under that roof were Christian. The three wise men were Zoroastrian, Hindu, and Buddhist (all would be considered "pagan" in Biblical terms), while Christ's parents and the shepherds were Jewish. But they all gathered before Christ because of who he was, and what he represented to the world: Light, Love, and Hope.
So if your folks want to get all nit-picky on religious matters, they are blackening their hearts against the true meaning behind Christmas.
Still, you could point out that there is reason to doubt a Winter birth. Many people believe that the Gospel of Matthew points to a Spring birth. Also, as Christianity spread throughout the pagan nations, priests would commonly assign holidays to coincide with pagan festivals, and name local gods and goddesses as Saints in the Christian paradigm, so the pagans would be more apt to worship under the banner of Christianity. Especially Celtic pagans, from which most of Wicca is drawn. But like I said... you shouldn't get hung up on religion at a time like this. ...you'll go to hell for what your dirty mind is thinking. Very interesting facts...where did you learn those??? Not that I'm doubting you or anything, I would just really like to know. And I already pointed out that the birth of Christ was in spring, not winter, and that Yule came first. But this is all very interesting, really. heart
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Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:08 am
don't get any big ideas, they're not going to happen...Which ones? On the three wise men... it's not exactly a "fact" since most biblical history wasn't recorded with such detail. As to where I got the information... ehm... can't remember sweatdrop Probably owing to the idea of them being "three kings of orient", as in, representatives of the three main faiths of the eastern world. Google seems to indicate that all three of them are believed to be Zoroastrian. Makes sense, if they all were Persian, though the Chinese lay claim to them as well. Depends on who you ask, I guess.
For the integration of pagan belief into Christian ritual... that's talked about in many books and television programmes on ancient European history and occult history alike. I think Ray Marlborough's book on saints goes into which saint was what god to what religion. I'd have to see what other sources I can scrape together. ...you'll go to hell for what your dirty mind is thinking.
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Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:36 am
Personally I've had to square off against my grandmother for the last 15 years over the holidays. She's one of the crusaders for the 'stop the happy hollidays' statements since saying happy holidays takes the christ out of christmas. Alas I've built up a thick skin and I try and focus on my birthday; the 22nd, and I've always just smiled and tried to practice a tolerance for the holiday and those that take a 'season of giving' and turn it into a soap box to twist a nice idea, a season of giving that follows a celebration of thanks, into something so commercial and full of petty bickering...
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:19 am
if i may you can point out the fact jesus and the bible is actually from the egiptian pagan god iris who he to died and reserected in the same span, aslo the fact we celebrate the winter solstice and the yule tide seasonso really just say everything is intwined with one and another and some way some how your belives and there believes come down to the basic package, even as a pagan you too can celebrate the festive season
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:48 am
This is always a great one that shuts my family up: The Christmas tree is a pagan symbol. Christians put up Pagan symbols once a year with great joy and zeal about it. I love the irony.
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:58 am
true_squall fact jesus and the bible is actually from the egiptian pagan god iris who he to died and reserected in the same span I have no idea what you're trying to say there. But, the Bible didn't come from an Egyptian goddess. It was written by Moses, I think. That may be the wrong person, but it was written by one of those important people when God came to him in the form of a flaming bush (or something like that) and told him what to write.
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:48 pm
to Deilusia: that reminds me of the people in my home town complaining when they changed the "Christmas Pagent" into the "Seasonal Celebration" because it incorperated other religions songs and was no longer only christian....oi....I personally think it was much better off for the change but how do you argue with the bible thumpers of the world eh? confused
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Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:32 am
dark_angel_32189 true_squall fact jesus and the bible is actually from the egiptian pagan god iris who he to died and reserected in the same span I have no idea what you're trying to say there. But, the Bible didn't come from an Egyptian goddess. It was written by Moses, I think. That may be the wrong person, but it was written by one of those important people when God came to him in the form of a flaming bush (or something like that) and told him what to write. The Bible came from a great many authors, actually. Moses only wrote Torah/Pentateuch.
As to the idea of Jesus being connected to one of the butt-million versions of Egyptian god/desses... I can't imagine that the story of Jesus would be based on anything outside of the Judeo-Christian construct, else the Islamic faith wouldn't have accepted him as a prophet of Allah. Muslims are pretty picky when it comes to who they let into the Qur'an... no foreign god/desses allowed, period. ...you'll go to hell for what your dirty mind is thinking.
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Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:27 am
Ich bin Nackt dark_angel_32189 true_squall fact jesus and the bible is actually from the egiptian pagan god iris who he to died and reserected in the same span I have no idea what you're trying to say there. But, the Bible didn't come from an Egyptian goddess. It was written by Moses, I think. That may be the wrong person, but it was written by one of those important people when God came to him in the form of a flaming bush (or something like that) and told him what to write. The Bible came from a great many authors, actually. Moses only wrote Torah/Pentateuch. I didn't mean to say that he was the only one who wrote it. sweatdrop He's just the only author I knew of for sure that wrote part of it... that's why I didn't mention the others. Forgot to put that in my last post.
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