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LOGIC PROBLEM Goto Page: 1 2 [>] [»|]

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[Q]
Captain

Elder

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:06 am


FOR THE THRILL OF THE HUNT!


I'm so sorry guys, for missing Monday. sweatdrop My weekend was so busy, to be honest, I just forgot. sweatdrop So this one is worth a ******** of money, yes, I said ******** class="postcontent-align-center" style="text-align: center">THE PROBLEM

Once upon a time there was an absolute ruler. His kingdom extended for leagues in every direction and he had millions of subjects. One grim day his doctors informed him he would die soon from a tumor in his neck.

The ruler had three sons, but he did not know which son he would chose to succeed him, so he devised three tests instead. One for toughness, which all sons passed, one for economic sense and appreciation of justice, which all sons passed, and one to evaluate their wisdom.

He took his sons into a room with no mirrors or furnishings except for three chairs arranged in a triangle so each person sitting in each chair could see the other two chairs.

Each son sat in a chair, and had their wrists clamped to it. The ruler said, "I will now blindfold you and paint either a white dot or blue dot on each of your foreheads, but you will not see the dot on your own forehead. You must say nothing, but if one of you sees two blue dots, he must say these exact words and no others: 'I see two blue dots'. When one of you is convinced that he knows and can prove that he knows the color of his own dot, he must say these exact words and speak no others: 'I can prove my color.' I will then take the son outside the room and ask him what his proof is, and he must explain it. If he is wrong, he is disqualified from winning. He will be blindfolded and gagged and returned to his chair so the others can observe his dot."

The sons were then blindfolded, painted with a dot on their forehead, unblindfolded, and sat down to observe eachother's dots.
A considerable amount of time passed. Then the youngest son said "I can prove my color."
He won the contest and he would be the next ruler. What was his proof?

THE PRIZE


For this, you'll recieve 50k or User Image(october 2006)
Your choice which.

THE RULES


- must answer the logic question
- must answer the logic question in this thread
- you can guess as many times as you want
- you can help eachother, but I won't give any hints
- If the question isn't answered by next wednesday (November 28), no one will receive any type of prize
- if you work together and want to split up trades, I can send trades to multiple people (where the total money sent out equals 50k; divide that among yourselves) if you'd like.

GOGOGO~!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:43 pm


Well, it really depends on what color the dots on the brother's head were, but the logic is really the same. There are no two blue dots because one of them would've had to stated "I see two blue dots" and none of them did. So, that leaves two white dots and one blue dot. Depending on whether or not one of the older brothers has a blue dot determines whether his is white or blue or either. If the two older brothers have two white dots, then the youngest brother could've had another white dot OR a blue dot because the first phrase only matters when there is two blue dots.

So, the brothers MUST have had a blue dot and a white dot. Because the first phrase was never said, then the brother must've had a white dot which is how he deduced that he had a white dot.

I hope that's right...or something along the right track. XD

[ E v e l y n ]


Puppa

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:57 pm


The only thing I can come up with aside from what Evelyn's said is a question for Evelyn. razz What if all three of them have white dots? I mean, sure, if we know there are two white dots and one blue then it's easy to prove, but it could go either way, couldn't it?

*had a long explanation reasoned out before she came to this blocking conclusion*
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:27 pm


Okay complex, but BHK will try to explain the best BHK can xp :
Since none of the brothers said that there were two blue dots, mean that there is either either one or no blue dots on them. So
1. The brother could have guesses his was white due to probability but the king probably would not accept that be cause he had to be sure.
2. The other is that he saw a blue dot and since none of them said that there was two he could assume that he had a white dot.
3. Even if he could not see the blue dot he could depend on his brothers to be smart enough to say they know their color if they saw another blue dot; since they didn't he could confide that his dot was white mrgreen
oh and 4. because like BHK said he is quite simple minded: The brother saw the reflection of his dot in his brothers eyes (you can usually distinguish between white and blue in a reflection though someones eyes... I think) sweatdrop
anyway if none of those are right I might try guessing again later xp

SourZack

Professional Lunatic


Eddie Melody

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:27 pm


Like, he had a blue dot, and this is how it went down, baby.

Like, the youngest son sat in the room, and since no one, like, said they saw two blue dots he could deduct that a number of blue dots less than 2 existed in the room. However man, the father said he would paint either blue or white on their heads. Basically baby, He knew because nobody said he had a blue dot, yet his father said there would be a blue dot in the room.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:41 pm


Hey Q, is this already answered here, or is the prize still up for grabs?

Devath


MissyRhae

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:24 pm


The youngest son must have a white dot.

It would be obvious that if there were two blue dots that one of the sons would say that they saw two blue dots. Also, if one of the sons saw a blue dot on their brother and no one said that they saw two blue dots that they had a white one. But if all of the sons all saw a white dot on their brothers then they would want to believe that they got the blue dot. But no one spoke up. So I am led to believe that they all have white dots and that the father painted no blue dots to begin with to test them.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:10 pm


Devath
Hey Q, is this already answered here, or is the prize still up for grabs?
I'm debating. sweatdrop

[Q]
Captain

Elder


Devath

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:45 pm


[Q]
Devath
Hey Q, is this already answered here, or is the prize still up for grabs?
I'm debating. sweatdrop


Right. From what I can see of the answers, most of them are at least partially correct, as it is a logic problem. From my perspective, here is the way the data is laid out:


Givens:
- If there are at least two blue dots, someone must say "I see two blue dots"
- No other speaking is allowed
- If a son is sure he can prove his color, they may say "I can prove my color"

Events:
- The sons are placed in formation and face each other
- Time passes
- The youngest announces he can prove his color.
- The assumption is that no other events occur.

And from such data, I will attempt to answer the question.

Cases:
(M/E == Middle/Eldest)

--------Case 1:
.................... - M/E has blue
.................... - M/E has white
The logic in this case is explained in previous posts, but I will explain it nonetheless. Assuming that all parties are truthful, logically, if the statement that there are two blue dots has not been said, it is possible to infer that one's own dot must therefore be white.

--------Case 2:
.................... - M/E has blue
.................... - M/E has blue
-------- The logic here assumes that the youngest brother does not announce that he sees two blue dots due to the fact that, first, announcing this allows both of the other brothers to prove their color, and, second, that the rule did not define that they must announce that their brothers have blue dots immediately. Assuming that the brothers know each other well, the youngest could judge by the expressions of the other brothers whether or not his dot was blue. All people will display tension on their face in some way when on the verge of a difficult decision. If neither brother's face showed the tension, the dot must be white, but if both showed tension, his dot must be blue.

--------Case 3:
.................... - M/E has white
.................... - M/E has white
-------- The logic behind this also leads to white, assuming that all brothers are roughly equal in mental capacity. From his position in seeing two white dots he can automatically infer that there are not two blue dots, and after waiting a long time, it would be certain he had a white dot, because neither of his brothers has announced their certainty before him due to the first and most logically rooted solution to the problem, seeing a white dot and a blue dot. From this, he can assume that he does not have a blue dot.

The logic behind these cases is not quite complete, but forms what must be said to be the basis of the rest of the equation. The reason the elder brothers may not have had as easy a time reading the face of the younger is also logically possible to infer. Due to watching them grow all his childhood, a younger brother would know the faces of his brothers better than they would his, which would have been less important to the developing brothers than many other things, and may have been less readable due to this lack of focus over time. This too, may not be a complete logical argument, but makes the core of any further arguments on this line.


This is what I can come up with as an answer, from my point of view. A logic problem is traditionally arranged in a table-like fashion:

O|O|O|O|O|
O|O|O|O|O|
O|O|O|O|O|
O|O|O|O|O|
O|O|O|O|O|

This diagram displays a square table built with O used as a "content block" and colored based on values red, blue, and green. Red blocks are "blank space", formatting limits force me to use them, green blocks are squares with no set value, and blue blocks hold the variables in question. Many variants on this shape exist, often using extended versions of the table to create a formation somewhat like this:

O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|
O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|
O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|
O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|
O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|
O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|
O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|
O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|
O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|
O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|
O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|
O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|
O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|
O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|
O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|O|

Or some such variation on the theme, not necessarily symmetrical. The groupings of blue blocks are separated by category of information, based upon organization of data such that no two values in a section can be true of a single blue block on a perpendicular section. All in all, however, the general shape of the problem is retained regardless of the way the problem is worded, as long as it is built as a logic problem. A generic logic problem built around one of these tables would have a list of clues and a table to fill out determining the fixed values of all the blue variables in relation to each other, as the table maps a set of boolean values, and cannot be applied properly to things that have multiple truths.


All in all, I have given all ye an answer and much irrelevant data.

Peace,
Devath
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:06 pm


You make it incredibly difficult to discern who deserves the prize, Devath. sweatdrop

[Q]
Captain

Elder


Eddie Melody

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:24 pm


[Q]
You make it incredibly difficult to discern who deserves the prize, Devath. sweatdrop
Like, you could always split up the prize, Baby.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:35 pm


Am I still elegible for entry baby? I, like, figured this one out.

He really had a white dot, one of the brothers he was looking at had a blue dot, and the other had a white. BAM! This is like, over baby.

Eddie Melody


[Q]
Captain

Elder

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:53 pm


OK, so I think I figured this out. I'll just give everyone 10k.
That ends up being 60k, but whatever. D;

edit: All trades were sent except MissyRae's. She needs to buy a trading pass. >_>
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:52 pm


User ImageBHK loves you! *hugs Q*
Did I ever tell you that you have an awesome username?
Cause you do! mrgreen

SourZack

Professional Lunatic


MissyRhae

PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:42 pm


I'm sorry I am still new to this... I have a trading pass now.

Thanks!
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