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 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:29 am
Ok, Im not sure if this has ever been discussed here or not, but I didnt see a thread on it so I thought it would be interesting to get different peoples views on it.
Ive noticed within different debate threads that there's also an issue of wether the man should be alowed a say or not. This could go in several different directions as some could argue "Its the womans body carrying the baby, not the mans" and then also "the fetus is the man's creation too".
And then of course there are the different scenarios. Thease are expecially confusing when some people argue that the choice should be up to both parties as both parties may not always agree.
-The man forces the woman into abortion because he does not want a child.
-The man forces the woman into pregnency by either rape or sabatoging (sp?) contraceptive even though she doesnt want a child.
Discuss-
When do you think a man has a right over the fetus?
When do you feel a mans right over the fetus can go too far?
What would you sugjest in situations where the man and woman can not agree on what to do? (Abort vs Have the child)
This discussion is expecially for those that argue that the choice should not whatsoever be the womans choice alone and that it should be made 100% by both parties. Also note that Im not including adoption in the discussion as that would mean going even furth in depth on the issue. I may bring it in later on though.
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Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:14 pm
And here's where we come to the rift between pro-choicers and pro-lifers-- Because you can say it's about the man's right over a woman's body, but from my perspective, it's about the shared rights of a being. I mean, a child out of the womb is shared, just as much as one is while in the womb.
Both parties should make the decision -together-. I mean, if a woman can't be honest with a man about a pregnancy, and whether or not she wants to have it, there's something wrong with that relationship.
That said, I'd like to think that if the man wanted the child, and the woman did not, she would have it for him, even if their relationship wouldn't continue after that. As a gay man who wants children someday, that seems like a great, unselfish, and generous act to me.
It's the child's body, really, not the woman's, or the man's. Whenever I'm in a debate I like to say that 3 people always have the potential to be hurt by an abortion, because it puts it into perspective for me.
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Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:54 pm
I believe both the man and the woman SHOULD have a say. After all it takes two to create a baby.
But even if men do get a say, the woman makes the final dicision and can ignore what the man has to say (sadly).
Honestly I think they should talk about all that before hand,just in case.
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:17 am
But what about when a man wants to force an abortion on a woman? Is it ok for him to have a say in the fetus living but not in the fetus being aborted?
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:46 am
Why would we want a male to have a say in a child being aborted? I mean we're against abortion, not against abortion unless a guy wants one, then it's okay. We doon't think anyone should be able to abort (unless medical reasons that kind of thing).
Not only this but why would a man be able to stop an abortion AND force one on a woman? That gives him complete control, not half control. The point is, that people think that if a man wants to raise his child the mother shouldn't be able to kill it, as it's not just hers. It has nothing to do with us thinking he should have control over the woman's body.
That said, while abortion is legal I think there should be an ability for him to back out of fatherhood, and give up all rights to the child, if he so desires. It hardly seems fair that a woman can back out of motherhood and be considered someone who is being "responsible for her future" and when a male backs out of fatherhood he's considered to be a "dead-beat"
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:56 pm
The right to save your child and the right to kill your child are two totally different things. Nobody should have the right to the latter.
That said, people need to be up front about whether or not they want a child, and women obviously should have the right to not have sex with men who disagree with them.
I've asked guys what their reaction would be if I got pregnant, and I've had one tell me he'd want me to have an abortion. And I told him that would never happen. I don't want to get pregnant, though, so we just agreed to disagree on the what-if part.
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:12 pm
Veolin But what about when a man wants to force an abortion on a woman? Is it ok for him to have a say in the fetus living but not in the fetus being aborted? Guys can't legally force someone to get an abortion, and they shouldn't push it for her get one. They can have a say, but they can't force the woman to do what they want.
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:14 pm
sachiko_sohma Veolin But what about when a man wants to force an abortion on a woman? Is it ok for him to have a say in the fetus living but not in the fetus being aborted? Guys can't legally force someone to get an abortion, and they shouldn't push it for her get one. They can have a say, but they can't force the woman to do what they want.Unfortunitely, guys have phycologicly convinced women to get abortions before under threats that they will abandon them and such. Sad, but it happens. (The nest two paragraphs are directed towards everyone) In relation to the bolded: But they can force a woman to get pregnet through rape and sabatoge of contraceptives and she shouldnt be allowed to do anything but go along with it? I ask because an ex tried to put me in this situation. He raped me after sabatoging our condoms and my birth control with the plan to get me pregnet so that I would not leave him. As for on topic why is it that a guy should be allowed say over a womans body, only when it comes to actually giving birth to a child? This is expecially in relation to people who have argued that it should COMPLETELY be up to both parties as then saying his say shouldnt matter if he wants the girl to abort is kind of contradicting that.
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:17 pm
La Veuve Zin The right to save your child and the right to kill your child are two totally different things. Nobody should have the right to the latter. That said, people need to be up front about whether or not they want a child, and women obviously should have the right to not have sex with men who disagree with them. I've asked guys what their reaction would be if I got pregnant, and I've had one tell me he'd want me to have an abortion. And I told him that would never happen. I don't want to get pregnant, though, so we just agreed to disagree on the what-if part. What if the man that disagrees with them is their husband? If they are married then she can't deny him sex because most states view that as spousal neglect and some even see it as spousal abuse.
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:21 pm
Beware the Jabberwock Why would we want a male to have a say in a child being aborted? I mean we're against abortion, not against abortion unless a guy wants one, then it's okay. We doon't think anyone should be able to abort (unless medical reasons that kind of thing).
Not only this but why would a man be able to stop an abortion AND force one on a woman? That gives him complete control, not half control. The point is, that people think that if a man wants to raise his child the mother shouldn't be able to kill it, as it's not just hers. It has nothing to do with us thinking he should have control over the woman's body.
That said, while abortion is legal I think there should be an ability for him to back out of fatherhood, and give up all rights to the child, if he so desires. It hardly seems fair that a woman can back out of motherhood and be considered someone who is being "responsible for her future" and when a male backs out of fatherhood he's considered to be a "dead-beat" But wouldnt forcing pregnency on a woman be complete controll as well? As per the rest of your post, I can agree with you for the most part. But nowadays, the door for child support swings both ways. I know here in Colorado the woman can be considered a dead beat if she abandons the child with the father and must then pay child support. Should she not have to as well?
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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:11 am
Veolin Beware the Jabberwock Why would we want a male to have a say in a child being aborted? I mean we're against abortion, not against abortion unless a guy wants one, then it's okay. We doon't think anyone should be able to abort (unless medical reasons that kind of thing).
Not only this but why would a man be able to stop an abortion AND force one on a woman? That gives him complete control, not half control. The point is, that people think that if a man wants to raise his child the mother shouldn't be able to kill it, as it's not just hers. It has nothing to do with us thinking he should have control over the woman's body.
That said, while abortion is legal I think there should be an ability for him to back out of fatherhood, and give up all rights to the child, if he so desires. It hardly seems fair that a woman can back out of motherhood and be considered someone who is being "responsible for her future" and when a male backs out of fatherhood he's considered to be a "dead-beat" But wouldnt forcing pregnency on a woman be complete controll as well? As per the rest of your post, I can agree with you for the most part. But nowadays, the door for child support swings both ways. I know here in Colorado the woman can be considered a dead beat if she abandons the child with the father and must then pay child support. Should she not have to as well?
Also, a mother may have to pay for child support, but ONLY if she chooses to keep the child. Basically she has chosen not to abort, and give up all responsibility to the child, the father doesn't have that option. If a woman gets pregnant he is complete at her whim. She decides to keep it? He has to pay. She decides to abort it? He has to suck it up and get the Hell over it.
If say, some how (not that it would ever happen as it would be a legal disaster) it became so that a man could keep a woman from aborting his child, but abortion in itself was still legal, then I would say that BOTH the man AND the woman should have the ability to sign away parental rights. Also, even if that didn't happen, if a man has the right to sign away parental rights, and say a woman is only keeping a pregnancy because the man wants to care for the child, and she doesn't want to abort if he wants to care for the child, then she should be able to sign away parental rights. But it should have to happen DURING the pregnancy, and within a certain timeframe, to ensure that people don't do something like say they want to help out and then back out at the last minute.
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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:29 pm
Veolin La Veuve Zin The right to save your child and the right to kill your child are two totally different things. Nobody should have the right to the latter. That said, people need to be up front about whether or not they want a child, and women obviously should have the right to not have sex with men who disagree with them. I've asked guys what their reaction would be if I got pregnant, and I've had one tell me he'd want me to have an abortion. And I told him that would never happen. I don't want to get pregnant, though, so we just agreed to disagree on the what-if part. What if the man that disagrees with them is their husband? If they are married then she can't deny him sex because most states view that as spousal neglect and some even see it as spousal abuse. But forcing someone to have sex (or an abortion) is also abuse, married or not. Honestly that is something they should talk about before getting married or before sleeping together. Talking about all that before hand can help prevent some problems in the future.
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