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"What the heck is THIS topic about, Grip?", you say. Well, read on, for I will connect it to the abortion debate in a minute... or maybe an hour! xp Enjoy my musings.

I'm sure all of you have heard the phrase "women and children" somewhere before. "All women and children aboard the lifeboats!" "Women and children this and that".

Aahh Language, a very powerful device that provokes thought, but doesn't neccessarily define thought.

The importance of the phrase "Women and children" in my mind is that two entities are inseperable. Women are in conjunction with children.

I see baby changing stations in women's restrooms (dunno if they have them in men's rooms). I see an internet christian women's sub-forum where they... mostly discuss about their children. And so on...

"Women and children." Because this phrase implies a togetherness of two seperate entities, it also implies that women have qualities JUST LIKE CHILDREN. Most unfortunately, many of these qualities are dysfunctional towards women. Women are weak, women are silly, women are weak-willed and weak-minded. Women need to be protected. Women need to be sheltered. Need I go on?

...And there are beliefs about how women are "natural mothers". As you'll learn in a social-science textbook, that is actually a myth. Parenting is a skill that needs to be developed- ask any parent. Just because a woman has the capacity to give birth.. does not make her a "natural mother!"

It's not stigmatised if a man does not like children. Women, however, who do not "like" children, or just acts distantly to them, are very stigmatised. It's almost as if a woman is perceived to be demonic, or a cold-hearted ice-queen, or other explosively hateful perceptions. She is also perceived as being flat-out unloving. Especially, these women are classified as unfeminine. Truly, it's all too easy to misunderstand a woman who is not *completely* into children.

But besides from denying women a full identity, splicing women and children as one entity supports women's slavery. Lets take a look of some different forms of constraints a woman is under by being expected to like, and take care of children~

Economic slavery- A stay-at-home mother does not make a wage, but rather is completely dependent on her husband for substance. Also, a woman who tends to her child while keeping a career is going to have a harder time climbing up the corperate ladder, or be successful at her job. We need not even mention that a woman who sacrifices her career to be a stay-at-home mom... for the kids.

Physical slavery- a stay-at-home mother is usually bound at the home doing the housework, an underappricated, underacknowledged, repetitive, non-paying job. A woman who juggles career and children are more stressed. Career moms can be highly constrained by time.

Mental slavery- the stay-at-home mother, being bound at the house, and doing work that's repetitive and underappriciated probably experiences boredom. Especially since she does not make wages, she relies on her husband to validate spending money for recreational excursians. But also, she lacks a strong, official union of likeminded stay-at-home-moms. This indicates that she lacks the power of organization to challenge her subordinated position. Also, I see cases of mothers who live their identity through their children because there is nothing else substantial the woman could find to develop herself more through (to note, the children end up usually resenting that). The career-oriented mom probably feels guilt over what is more important in her life: Her husband, friends, and the media all point fingers to her for being "irresponsible" for valuing her career, and blame for the kid's misdeeds generally fall on her.

Now am I saying that no woman should be a stay-at-home mom? Absolutely not. That is her choice if that's what makes her happy, although i'll also wish for the stay-at-home moms to be ensured of autonomy. Also, am I saying that woman who like children are to be comdemned? Absolutely not. I'm not here to condemn women who like children, but challenge the ideas that all women should do so. Like I stated earlier, it's the expectation from society that women should like children, and that women should take care of children put the woman under huge constraints. Her very identity, like I said earlier, is put into question.

"Okey Dokey Grip. I actually took the time to read all this stuff, and my eyes are getting tired. Hurry up and tell me what this has to do with the abortion debate!" xd GOTCHA~!

- Being tied to children, through identity, and through living, also ties up a woman's freedom.

- also, the double-standard that men do not have to like children can justify some men to absolve being tied up to children. While this may be conducive to allowing a woman a full decision over the fetus during a pregnancy (well, at least for now, anyway)... she also isn't guarenteed of much help over child-care if a baby is born.

- Pressures are put on women not to abort, disregarding XX reason(s). The expectation to "like" children, plus to be identified with children, are beliefs which contribute to the pressure. The "munchkin" inside your body is a "part of you." "how could you abort something that's a part of YOU?" "Don't you like children? Then why are you killing it? That's YOUR baby!" "If you hate babies, then you must love killing them, you baby murderer!"
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Anyway, one last thought, which is important to say yet a bit off topic: Children have different issues from women. It not only does women injustice to form the two together as one entity, but it does children considerable injustice too.

Anyway, Comments are welcome, as always, even if you want to b***h at me for always writing long, drawn out crap. wink I'm interested in your thoughts about women and children being forged as one group too.

Oh s**t, I also forgot the upside to child-rearing responsibilities xp : men of these current generations are interacting more with their children than they were in the previous generations. Go men! heart Still, much progress can be made. "Say... let's work together, shall we?" wink

my personal feelings about children~

I'm a gal who says "I don't care for children". I guess i'm either too afraid to say "I don't like kids", or "I hate kids", or that I feel the use of language is too strong to convey my feelings most accurately.

I still think I'm young, with a life ahead of me. I'm just 20, and I would like to complete college, pursue my identity, and develop a career. I just don't want a baby right now... or, can't envision one for a while. Heck, I can't even envision having a boyfriend for a while, muchless a kid!

With other people's children... I'm just uncomfortable. I'm afraid if I too closely interact with other's kids, I will accidently cause harm to the child (I think they're delicate). And my a** would get sued over that if it happened (in America, people love to sue at the drop of a handle, it seems). I'm afraid of having responsibility over children and do not feel I can handle it now. Also, I think small children are icky. All those germs, the drool, the dirt, the boogers, the stinky smells. xp

I don't really see babies as cute, they all look the same to me, lol. xp small children can be cute... but can also be ear-splittingly rambunctious.

I don't have much of a history of interacting with children, so it all feels quite awkward with me when I do interact with children. sweatdrop

However

I smile at children often. I try to be friendly, even if only on a distant level. I would like the world to seem like a friendlier place to the child.

I truly admire an infant's capability for awareness of their surroundings, rudimentary logic, and other aspects of intelligence. I think small children are more brighter than many humans think.

I believe that children are seperate entities from their parents, and should have rights. No, I'm not talking about fetuses, lol. I don't intend for children to overpower their own caretakers, but support children protection from abuse, having respect for thoughts and feelings, that kind of stuff.

I would be fiercly angry, if there was ever an understatement, if i see or hear of a child being abused. I'm such a sucker over a child's pain that my heart winces when I hear a "brat" wailing at the store over an unrequited request for a toy or candy... even though it's gratingly annoying too.

So... am I so heartless? ninja

this is a bit off topic...but it has to do with the mother bit....it is possible for human males to produce milk 3nodding ...normally this is blocked by hormones...but when a couple has a child...the male can breastfeed eek they will start to produce milk just like females

I just thought that this would be a fun fact to share sweatdrop

I love children. I fawn over my nieces (both of them) and I fully expect to have children of my own one day. But I cannot afford them now, and my morals are such that it's either abortion or parenthood too early. Theses are not everyone's morals, and they should not be. I also know a great many people who don't like children, and they should not be forced into parenthood.

I don't think ANYONE can ignore a crying baby, men included. They are so annoying that I bet MOST people are secretly wishing someone shuts it up by any means neccassary.

I am young mother two, very happy I made my choice and I dont regret anything. I have always been pro-choice even before my little men entered my life. I have always wanted kids and loved being around kids, heck I thought of being a teacher at one point.

My boys are apart of me and I am still my own woman. Lucky for me, I have wonderful parents whom I love dearly and they love to take thier grandchildren from time to time and let me have some peace.

I am currently a stay at home mother, I stopped working to have my youngest and am trying to get back into the workforce (not easy in the winter time).

But I am not going to lie there are some times I feel overwhelmed by parenthood, but thats what friends and family are for to help keep you sane. No one said parenting was easy.

Being that my oldest is 3, I am finding the whole potty training thing difficult. But he is learning and so am I. I do whatever I can for them. Their needs come before mine or my fiancee's. Not just cuz, they are little and cant fend for themselves, but also because I love them dearly and they are the light at the end of a very dark tunnel.

So, You can be pro-choice and choose family. I did, but that doesnt mean everyone has to. Its a personal decision between the woman and her partner (if he cares).