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I was writing a short piece a while back in which I mentioned loli v western goth argument, but now I can't remember a thing about it and the place I remember seeing it is nowhere to be found! >_o

Anyway, I was wondering if any of you lovely lolis could fill me in on the basic gist of it.

Is it american goths saying loligoth is copying them or something? Or people ripping into loli becuase it's a copy of western victorian or something? O_o I don't know, but I'd like to if you happen to have any info. ^^

Thank you! ~

Hehe. Mmkay. ^^ Thanks for the input anyways. <3

I don't think there is an argument either, but the fact that both include the same word (or variation of) 'Goth' may cause a bit of discomfort when one tries to understand both subcultures.

My understanding is that Lolita is a fashion as well a way of life.
I suppose if you speak of Lolita as a fashion, it does look similar to old Victorian styles because it imitates (perhaps not the best word) and takes inspiration from them. As well, the 'way of life' takes from that period too in a way. It's a thing of high culture, manners and such.

Goth as a fashion, from what I understand doesn't take from any time in specific but has more of an internal influence, one that requires more personal translation I suppose. ;>> As well, I'm not familiar with the 'Goth way of life' (or if there is one!) but unless it involves modesty, manners, and general etiquette, I don't think it is similar to that of the Lolita's.

In any sense, I don't think gothic Lolita is guilty of 'copying' any specific 'Goth' style or 'way of life'.

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General statement as well, I've notice that many Western Lolitas are more concerned about the fashion (And why not, it's absolutely hypnotizing <333) than much else about any thing 'Lolita'.

I'm not sure, but isn't Lolita more of a culture?

Ah, okay! Thanks guys. <3

It was only a point of interest for the piece because I was browsing myspace (which is where my whole writing piece stemmed from) and loads of the groups were like LOLI V WESTERN GOTH, one thread I vaguely recall was like whinebitchmoan but I dont recall what it said, and all of the groups I found when I tried to look again were all disabled and inactive and such.

Wait. I have a question, so is gothic lolita and goth lolita the same thing?
Or is goth lolita a bad, incorrect name? Because i had a user name 'goth lolita' because gothic lolita was too many letters and this other lolita said that my name was a discrace to lolita and i'm just some stupid cosplayer, not a real loli. Oh, yea it kinda hurt but i don't care all that much. But is goth lolita a incorrect name?

Oh. kk, thanks for the info! This incident happened some time ago (think almost 2 years) and this argument triggered the memory.

There's an online magazine that I like to paruse that actually makes a grand and wonderous distinction between "Goth" and "Gothic Lolita". It's a Goth magazine, but they have different sections about Gothic Lolita and even articles that review stores that sell really well done Gothic Lolita wear.

It's "Morbid Outlook". It's an online magazine and everyone should check it out. I really like it! heart

Seeing as how I'm not exactly a Lolita, but more of a Western Goth who adores Lolita fashion as well as the culture surrounding it, I've leared quite well what the distinctions between Lolita and Western Goth are.

Both are alike in the fact that they are constantly misportrayed in the media. when most people think of Lolita fashion, scantly-clad girls or goofy cosplayers usually come to mind. This is akin to how when most people think of a goth they usually think of an angsty teenager clad in Hot Topic clothing and a zillion pounds of silver jewellery. Both of these images are incorrect, as both the Goth and Lolita subcultures are much different from those images, and are very diverse.

Goth is a broad term encompassing many different attitudes, philosophies, et cetera. However, many goths are sort of like the 'new romantics', valuing art, music, emotion, intellect, nature, aesthetics, and trying to figure out the human nature. My own take on life draws heavily from Romantic and Transcendentalist philosoplhies, albiet with a bit more realism thrown in. The gothic subculture actually has numerous different subcultures contained within it, ranging from the fururistic cybergoth to the flouncy romanti-goth. Akin to how Lolita culture is divided, these groups coexist in harmony. Amid these various goth groups, there seems to be more distinction than between different Lolita 'groups'. Lolita only seems to be divided along lines of fashion, whereas many different gothic sub categories go so far as to have thier own music genres (eg. Romantic Goths and Ethereal.) Mind you, it's not as if the sub-genres of gothic culture have staked claim on certain sub-genres of gothic music; it's simply that certain band seem to have a wider audience with different sub-genres of goth. However, in social settings these sub-genre lines usually blurr as everyone meshes and inter-mingles.

The category of goth that seems to have the most in common with Lolita is Romantic Goth. Manners are appreciated by Romantic Goths, but not stressed as much as they are in the Lolita subculture. There seems to be much more emphasis on appreciation of visual art, classical music, literature, opera, and other forms of fine art among Romanti-Goths than there is among most other goths. Romantic Goths are sometimes associated with a sort of nostalgic elegance, conjuring up images from Victorian novels of romance or tragedy. Fashion-wise, there is some cross over between Romantic Goth and Lolita. A good portion of Romantic Goth fashion draws from Victorian influences, some are barely distinguishable from the Aristocrat look. However these fashions are usually more adult styles than the usual youthful Lolita look. I believe that the main dfference between Romantic Goths and Lolitas, apart from fashion, has to do with the fact that even as a Romantic, one can be harsh; ex. getting into heated debates about highly contravestial issues seems to be more accepted among romati-goths than it would be among Lolitas. Also, while manners are a bit more lax, intellect is pretty stressed. I know of one Romantic Goth who is a University Professor, and another one who will be transferring from Smith College to Harvard University in the fall... and I only know about five Romantic Goths, so this is a pretty high percentage! I know that doing well in school is important to most Lolitas, and I have no doubt in my mind that most Lolitas are very intelligent (ex. one of my Lolita friends will probably be attending Brown Universty in the fall! I'm so happy for her!), it's just that intellect seems to be stressed more among Romanti-Goths. Not that all Romantics are Ivy League elitists. My GPA is actually about that of an average student, rendering me much below Ivy League standards.

Lolita is very much different from goth in several ways. Though I don't know the full history of Lolita, I'm pretty sure it emerged at a later point than the Gothic subculture did (the gothic subculture first began to form ca. 1978-1981). They both have very different origins, with Goth being mainly from the US and UK, popularized through gothic rock music in the 80's, whereas Lolita got its start in Japan, and though I am unsure of how it gained popularity, I do not think it was through music.
Though both Goth and Lolita emphasize aestetics, they do so in different manners. Lolita is youthful, extremely well-manered, and innocent. Innocece is a key factor here, as sweetness and innocence are two aspects which the gothic subculture tends to not put a whole lot of emphasis on.

I'm sleepy, and I have school tommrrow, so I'll finish my arguement later...

Feel free to challenge me, question me, or whatever. ^_^