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I wouldn't even call it a compromise, I'd call it necessity.

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lymelady
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:49 pm


A lot of us in here go by one of two names: Pro-life, or pro-choice. We're divided into "sides," sort of, one stereotypically cares about women, one stereotypically cares about unborn children.

But there are a lot of things we don't have to be on opposite sides on.

There are over a million abortions done in this country each year. People on both sides are upset over this, but some feel it's a necessary evil. Others feel it's not necessary, but actually, I agree that some of it is "necessary" on the point that better options don't exist where they should.

First of all, if both "sides" worked together to further birth control education and availability, that would stop a lot of unwanted pregnancies from happening in the first place. If doctors would sterilize adults in their 20's who want to be sterilized instead of refusing because they're too young, not because it's dangerous but because "you might want kids some day," that would cut back on unwanted pregnancies from the child free crowd. That's just prevention.

Secondly, if the adoption system which the pro-life crowd advocates so much wasn't so dangerous, people who fear for the lives of their children and say, "I want to end it before my baby can feel, because I can't raise this child, and the adoption system is dangerous," then people wouldn't be so reluctant to adopt. It's not that all foster homes and adoptive homes are bad, but too many of them are abusive to justify not just ignoring the abuse, but promoting the whole thing. Adoption in an of itself is great, and I admittedly don't know how to go about fixing it, but if tons of people worked together on it, then I'm positive solutions can be found.

Third, a lot of people abort for reasons like finances, fear of abuse, being kicked out of school, losing scholarships, losing housing, and fear of being a bad parent. Those issues need to be addressed, or we as a society will fail. We are failing. The fact that women feel that they NEED to kill their unborn children for reasons like these is a sure sign that we are failing. I'm not going to lie and say I think these things justify taking a human life. I'm just not going to pretend that everyone believes as strongly as I do that fetuses are human beings who deserve to live, because unless those children are people, there is no reason to not have an abortion. It's just like removing an STD. If someone does not feel that a fetus is a person, there is no reason for her to risk all of these hardships when she can deal with the problem without hurting anyone, in her mind. If we eliminate these hardships, if we don't make it so that women are pitted against their children, there will be far less abortions, and that would truly be reproductive choice.

If, on the other hand, we do not bring measures like this into place, and we just make abortion illegal, then a lot of women will have illegal abortions because they will feel desperate. If we instead address the issues which make people feel desperate to abort, there won't be incentive to abort. I'm not saying all abortions are done out of a feeling of need, and there are abortions done out of a feeling of want, but if we get rid of those abortions that come from a feeling of need, think about how many deaths could be avoided without people opposing it because of bodily integrity? I truly feel this is something everyone can get behind.

I'd like as much constructive criticism as can be given, because I'm serious about researching this and trying to gather support from this when I'm a bit older. Anything I can fine-tune along the way, I'd be glad to hear.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:09 pm


I completely agree with everything you said. 100%.

I don't think a lot of the problems people may have with the adoption system are based just around the abusive and bad homes that children supposedly are put into. The adoption system definitely needs work on that, but it needs much more.
Socially, certain kinds of people will adopt and certain kinds of children won't get adopted. Eliminating the tendency to not adopt minority, older, or disabled children will need a social reform or a much, much, much huger reform of the adoption system needs to be done than fixing abuse problems. Like perhaps huge tax benifits for families who adopt the less-in-demand children in the adoption system?

Tyshia2


lymelady
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:57 pm


Good point, those are big problems too. Some of them come from restrictions...some agencies honestly won't let you adopt outside your own race. It's stupid in my opinion, but it's up to the agencies I guess. There's a lot of social stigma against raising someone in a diverse household, which I don't understand, but if the government gave tax incentives to adopt these children, that would clear things up a lot.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:52 am


The closed adoption system is not doing well, which is why I am such a fan of open adoption.

I also agree, 100% with your post. I would love to see a world when no pregnant woman feels she can't continue a pregnancy because of finances, social stigmata, or workplace discrimination (my one friend who rather recently had a child, didn't tell her work that she was pregnant because they outright said they would fire her for it).

WatersMoon110
Crew


Erasmas

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:32 pm


Quote:
First of all, if both "sides" worked together to further birth control education and availability, that would stop a lot of unwanted pregnancies from happening in the first place. If doctors would sterilize adults in their 20's who want to be sterilized instead of refusing because they're too young, not because it's dangerous but because "you might want kids some day," that would cut back on unwanted pregnancies from the child free crowd. That's just prevention.


I gotta disagree with this. I've been screaming about this for some time now. Look, it's not that kids don't know what contraception is or does, and it's not like they don't know how women get pregnant, or how STDs are spread. It's just the narcissism of adolescence spilling over into the adult years.

If we stop socializing girls to think they're special and awesome and ethereal and right about everything, maybe they wouldn't think THEY will be the exception should they have unprotected sex or not.

Maybe if stop letting girls "accountability" always means "oppression" you'd have more girls considering their actions more carefully, and in general making smarter choices.

We need to stop letting girls think everything they say and do is OK and stop bitching amongst ourselves as if every action from a woman is debatable, no matter how messed up, morally corrupt, and irresponsible it is.

In general, we need to give girls a real kick in the a**. A more caring, enlightened, responsible society (which we were once) could handle the privilege of abortion and keep it in it's place. But millions of babies are aborted each year, and for what? Mommy couldn't bother to keep her legs closed. That's the long and short of it. The girl couldn't be bothered to take responsibility for her actions, so she got rid of her baby.

I know there are other factors that might lead us to be one way or another, but I think it really comes down to the way we're socialized. Women are made to feel entitled. Yes, even to kill their ******** baby. If the Pro-Choice side ever decides to adopt a flag, they need to put Andrea Yates on it.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:27 pm


Erasmas
Quote:
First of all, if both "sides" worked together to further birth control education and availability, that would stop a lot of unwanted pregnancies from happening in the first place. If doctors would sterilize adults in their 20's who want to be sterilized instead of refusing because they're too young, not because it's dangerous but because "you might want kids some day," that would cut back on unwanted pregnancies from the child free crowd. That's just prevention.


I gotta disagree with this. I've been screaming about this for some time now. Look, it's not that kids don't know what contraception is or does, and it's not like they don't know how women get pregnant, or how STDs are spread. It's just the narcissism of adolescence spilling over into the adult years.

If we stop socializing girls to think they're special and awesome and ethereal and right about everything, maybe they wouldn't think THEY will be the exception should they have unprotected sex or not.

Maybe if stop letting girls "accountability" always means "oppression" you'd have more girls considering their actions more carefully, and in general making smarter choices.

We need to stop letting girls think everything they say and do is OK and stop bitching amongst ourselves as if every action from a woman is debatable, no matter how messed up, morally corrupt, and irresponsible it is.

In general, we need to give girls a real kick in the a**. A more caring, enlightened, responsible society (which we were once) could handle the privilege of abortion and keep it in it's place. But millions of babies are aborted each year, and for what? Mommy couldn't bother to keep her legs closed. That's the long and short of it. The girl couldn't be bothered to take responsibility for her actions, so she got rid of her baby.

I know there are other factors that might lead us to be one way or another, but I think it really comes down to the way we're socialized. Women are made to feel entitled. Yes, even to kill their ******** baby. If the Pro-Choice side ever decides to adopt a flag, they need to put Andrea Yates on it.


I can't agree with you here. Any time any group of people, be it blacks, jews, women or feti are singled out, bad things happen.

Women don't need anything that all of society doesn't need. Daddy couldn't keep it in hisp ants either, it takes two. Men are allowed to feel entitled to sleep around with everyone and anyone, and then condone the killing of their child so they don't have to deal with it.

I think we need more information, easier ways to get sterilized, easier access to birth control, and harder access to abortion. When the prior become more real, the latter won't be so sought after.

divineseraph


lymelady
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:57 pm


Erasmas, I'd agree with you that kids know what contraception is...I just don't think they know how to use it. Adults too, I didn't say "kids," I said people in general. The amount of people whose contraception fails because they didn't know how to use it properly is painful, and that contraception won't do any good whatsoever if it's not used correctly.

In my experience, girls aren't made to feel special, awesome, ethereal, and right about everything. That may just be because I'm a girl, so maybe I feel special, awesome, ethereal, and right about everything (but duh, we all know I'm right about everything! *bats eyelids* ), but I've certainly never realized I felt that way, so it must not be working very well.

Divine already said it beautifully, about guys being equally responsible.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:36 am


I do not agree that sterilization should be handed to anyone as a graduation present right out of High School.

After all, they account for the immaturities of the patient when they say "No" to many of the people that walk in. How many do you think are doing it solely for the sex without any really forethought about wanting children later on in their life? This isn't the time of the Virgin Mary anymore--barrin' the Lord's child at fourteen! Women have long lives, thank to Medicine. Is it possible the "Mommy bug" bites a little later? Or a little discreetly?

Regardless, sterilization isn't the way. I think getting yourself altered drastically just for the sex is wrong if you do it too young... I can already tell that ten years down the road from now i'm going to look at some of the things I did as a child and common scorn myself for it. "What the hell was I thinking?!"

Besides, that might put the false notion into people's head that they are past condoms and other forms of birth control. Even if it doesn't everytime they have sex... eventually, it'll break, or they won't wear one and they'll think everything's all right but i'm sure the damage will have already been done, whether it's an STD or a body part that has amazingly grown back.

(RANDOM a** question: After a Vasectomy, can the male still ejaculate? I'm guessing the answer is no... but that just sounds really strange in concept).

DCVI
Vice Captain


WatersMoon110
Crew

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:38 am


kp is dcvi
I do not agree that sterilization should be handed to anyone as a graduation present right out of High School.

After all, they account for the immaturities of the patient when they say "No" to many of the people that walk in. How many do you think are doing it solely for the sex without any really forethought about wanting children later on in their life? This isn't the time of the Virgin Mary anymore--barrin' the Lord's child at fourteen! Women have long lives, thank to Medicine. Is it possible the "Mommy bug" bites a little later? Or a little discreetly?

Regardless, sterilization isn't the way. I think getting yourself altered drastically just for the sex is wrong if you do it too young... I can already tell that ten years down the road from now i'm going to look at some of the things I did as a child and common scorn myself for it. "What the hell was I thinking?!"

If someone changes their mind, they can damn well adopt. There are plenty of children that other people are having and not taking care of that need good homes. I'm sorry, but I very much believe that adults should always be allowed to choose to never have children of their own.

If they change their minds later, good. More potentially adoptive parents to help get kids out of the adoption system.
kp is dcvi
Besides, that might put the false notion into people's head that they are past condoms and other forms of birth control. Even if it doesn't everytime they have sex... eventually, it'll break, or they won't wear one and they'll think everything's all right but i'm sure the damage will have already been done, whether it's an STD or a body part that has amazingly grown back.

Actually, with sterilization, there isn't much need for anything other than condoms (since other forms of contraceptives only prevent against pregnancy). And while there is something like a 1% that a Vasectomy will reverse itself (I don't believe that tubal litigations do, though), there is practically no danger of pregnancy.
kp is dcvi
(RANDOM a** question: After a Vasectomy, can the male still ejaculate? I'm guessing the answer is no... but that just sounds really strange in concept).
Yes. They sure can. Nothing is removed, all that happens is the vas deferens, the tube that sperm travels through, is severed. Most of the male ejaculat is made up of other fluids. There is no danger of not being able to have sex with a vasectomy.

*wink* I think you've been watching too much Family Guy. *laughs*
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:02 pm


Erasmas
I gotta disagree with this. I've been screaming about this for some time now. Look, it's not that kids don't know what contraception is or does, and it's not like they don't know how women get pregnant, or how STDs are spread. It's just the narcissism of adolescence spilling over into the adult years.

If we stop socializing girls to think they're special and awesome...


Whoa whoa whoa....why are girls the only one with the problem? Boys are just as narcissistic and think it can't happen to them, either. (Getting a woman pregnant, that is...)

It's the same reason why a 17-year-old kid killed himself and two friends not far from where I live--by driving over a cliff while drunk. They thought it couldn't happen to them.

La Veuve Zin

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Pro-Life/Pro-Choice Discussion

 
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