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 Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:46 pm
I have meet countless Cleris who directly quote this site all the time. It seems that this site creates more stupid and horribly misinformed Cleris and anti Clotif fans then any other Cleris site on the net. I finally went there after a long time of staying away from it only to be sickened by all the crap and miss information they have on there. They haven't even updated to add Last Order, Advent Children, or Derg to their list of things to b***h anti Clotif too. Also most of the stuff on there is nothing but fan essays about how the dialog of the game shows Cloud and Aeris are the true couple and how Cloud and Tifa were never ment to be. Now, mind you, I did not start this thread to make an argument, I merely want to know your opinions on some of the things people say in this site about Cloud and Tifa's relationship. This is a Cloud and Tifa guild after all... Here is the link to the site http://www.geocities.com/ffviidestiny/Menu.htm
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:06 pm
Oh no...not THIS site. That place is full of crap. rolleyes Okay, that was harsh, but I really don't like this site. Quote: Hypothesis: Cloud Does Not Love Tifa by Perceivence Hypothesis: Cloud does not love Tifa. Evidence: There is a great deal of evidence. However, the main focus of this essay is evidence found in one speech that Cloud makes on board the Highwind. Focus The focus is on the scene where Cloud gives a speech on board the Highwind right before the Last Night Under the Highwind scene. Its requirement of context from around the game is minimal, since it's based on a truth of reality: a logical result of a situation. Basically, I will be arguing that in a certain situation, Cloud has two options that may either show that he may love Tifa, or that he does not. Truths and Axioms 1. At the scene in question, Cloud does not care about the future of the Planet. Its safety is merely a side result of his real reasons, and he is apathetic about that result. Cloud says so in his speech on board the Highwind: Cloud "What are we all fighting for?" Cloud "I want us all to understand that." Cloud "Save the planet... for the future of the planet..." Cloud "Sure, that's all fine." Cloud "But really, is that really how it is?" (He takes a few steps forward) Cloud "For me, this is a personal feud." Cloud "I want to beat Sephiroth. And settle my past." Cloud "Saving the planet just happens to be a part of that." Cloud rhetorically asks the group whether or not they're fighting to save the Planet. Cloud answers with a clearly implied no for himself. Cloud's reason for fighting is not to save the planet, but to resolve a personal feud, beat Sephiroth, and settle his past. Saving the planet just happens to be part of that. Bearing this fact in mind, all other reference to saving the Planet as a reason must be considered in relation to this. Cloud explicitly states here that saving the Planet isn't really his reason; it just happens to be a result of his real reason. Therefore, all other places where he says he's fighting to save the Planet must be in reference to it being a result of the real reason. Otherwise, Cloud would be contradicting himself. 2. Tifa, the person whom he may love, will be directly affected by the outcome of the fight. Since Tifa's future is heavily dependent on the Planet's future, then a Planet without a future makes a Tifa without a future. Tifa lives on the Planet and cannot live without the Planet. Tifa's future depends on her life, therefore, her future depends on the Planet. 3. A love for someone requires a real concern for that person, and for his/her well-being. This truth is self-evident. Love can be described as a very strong concern for the well-being of someone else. Romantic love requires one to have a very strong consideration of the beloved. This strong consideration, if it doesn't displace one's own selfish ambitions, always causes the person in love to care about their beloved. One cannot have a real concern for and care about someone else and not be concerned about that person's well-being. A person's future is part of his well-being. Logical Steps Since Cloud is not concerned with the Planet's future and is not fighting for it (Truth/Axiom 1) and Tifa's future is unavoidably tied to the future of the planet (Truth/Axiom 2) and loving someone requires one to be very concerned for that person and his/her well-being, which includes that person's future (Truth/Axiom 3) Then Cloud does not love Tifa. Miscellenous Comments and Pre-Emptives 1. Caring for someone is an unavoidable requirement for loving that person. A concern for that person's well-being is necessary for loving that person. Someone's future, particularly where his/her life is threatened within a few days, is an inseparable part of his/her well-being. 2. Without considering other references to fighting for the Planet as subordinate to the one I outlined, then one can only interpret that Cloud is contradicting himself. This reference is given dominance because of how he explicitly outlines the reason for his claiming that fighting for the Planet may be considered a reason. The other times he says he's fighting for the Planet can, thus, easily fall under this category. 3. One cannot credibly claim that Cloud may be concerned for Tifa's future despite all of this. He makes it crystal clear that the fight for the Planet's future is not a concern of his. This entire speech would most likely have been given a large amount of thought. There is no reason to think that he may have overlooked the fact that the future may be of utmost importance to Tifa and the rest of his friends. Conclusion: Thus, the hypothesis appears to be true. Just pulling one of the essays out. This person really takes a bold stance claiming that Cloud does NOT love Tifa. Unfortunately for them, I can refute this. twisted First of all, because FFVII has been HORRIBLY translated, a lot of quotes are irrelevant at times. In a lot of cases, the Japanese version of FFVII-Cloud is a lot more affectionate to Tifa. Such as the scene where Cloud talks about what he's fighting for. In the Japanese version, he says that he's fighting for something personal, something dear to him....A promise. I don't remember the exact quotation, but I'll get it again....eventually. xd Plus, even WITHOUT the translation, the fact that Cloud said "to beat Sephiroth and settle his past"....Whose past would he be talking about if not his and Tifa's? Cloud and Tifa share the same past, whether they knew each other well or not.
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:23 am
Wow, total bull. When I have more time I'll drag an essay out of there, and counter it as well.
But as for this essay, a fine example of how rabid Cleris fans try their hardest to dig into the game, and change the meaning of what is really said. Making it NOT evidence, but in fact their own opinion.
Once again, showing how they cannot see the answers right in front of their faces.
Cloud cares about Aeris and Tifa, end of story.
WE just believe that based on PROOF, he loves Tifa. Romantically.
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:21 am
Cloud was after Sephiroth long before the man killed Aeris. Srsly. He cut Tifa, burned down his hometown, killed his mother, his actions led to him and Zack being in test tubes for like 5 years which led to Zack's ultimate downfall. I do think Aeris's death to some extent has him chasing after Sephiroth but it's ridiculous to act like she's the only reason. v.v
Anyway, that site is notorious for being full of crap. It's not even a Clerith shrine, man, it's an antiCloTi shrine.
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Truthiness3x4 Vice Captain
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:50 pm
Yeah! Shrines aren't supposed to bring about debates and refuting points. rolleyes Another essay! One of the crappiest ones out there! My gosh....they even decided to grab some Japanese guy for his opinion. rolleyes And this Cleris fan is like "And so Cloud really doesn't love Tifa? Does that mean...."....talk about desperate! rolleyes Both of these people are just so biased...using this as proof... Quote: The Japanese Perspective: Cloud x Aerith I had the privilege to speak online recently with a person who has lived her life immersed in Japanese culture. She was born in Japan and lived in Miyako before moving to the States with her parents. She was raised by parents and grandparents who are native to Japan, and she speaks Japanese fluently. She is very familiar with both the Japanese and NA versions of Final Fantasy VII. The following is a transcript of our discussions. Many thanks to Naru for allowing me to publish these transcripts! Japanese Culture ----- Aly: From my studies of Japanese culture, I understand that the Japanese do not say "I love you" except on very special occasions because they feel that saying it frequently will cheapen the meaning. They feel it is much more important to show your feelings through manner and action than it is to speak of your feelings. The Japanese do not usually display affection through hugging and so forth. Is that true? Naru: Yes, that is very true. I am somewhat americanized though. Although I do not spam the three words often, I am not ashamed to say them to my significant other. My parents never say the three words either; nor does my grandparents. One time, I asked my father why he never tell my mother that he loves her. He went crimson and eluded my question. My mother later told me that i was very rude to my father. They knew about how they feel about each other; they showed it by action, rather than by words. In majority of asian cultures, they prefer to show it through action, rather than using the words "I Love you". So the next time when you see Usagi spamming, "I love you Mamo-chan!", please that's not how we normally act. ----- Aly: I have never seen Usagi say that, but if I ever see it... I will remember your lesson. ^^;; Naru: XD Well, I've seen them so many times from fanfics and US dubbed version; it made me laugh so much. No offense to the fanfic writers though; I think it was just the cultural difference. ----- Aly: Did you know that the American version of FFX has Yuna say, "I love you" to Tidus, but that the Japanese version of the game does not? I believe that change was made because of the differences in our cultures, was it not? Naru: Yes. From Western perspective, if a boyfriend never utters, 'I love you' to his girlfriend, people would have perceived him as a cold, unfeeling guy who never deserved her. But from Japanese and Asian perspective, it was perfectly fine to not utter the words 24/7. Anybody could tell Yuna and Tidus were in love because of the obvious display of affection and their manners toward each other. ----- Aly: From a Japanese perspective, would you please tell us how Square has made it crystal clear who Cloud loves? Many in the NA audience don't seem to understand it, so I'd be very interested to hear your perspective of it. Crystal clear, yeah right. rolleyes Quote: Naru: Um.. it is more like a cultural thing, I think. Ever since I was really young, I grew up watching anime and manga; and almost every main guy (to be the main heroine's love interest or partner) was portrayed as tall, skinny guy with stoic personality who prefers to show his affection by the manner or action. Of course, nowadays, they introduce more guy types in anime/manga; but back in 80s, it was always the stoic guy routine. Somehow, Cloud reminded me of the typical 80s shoujyo manga/anime hero. Aerith did fit into the typical 80s shoujyo manga/anime heroine type as well. She was vibrant/happy/full of life/klutz. She never gave up on things; she always looked forward to the future. Well, if you were used to seeing things like that, it really was not so hard to see who was the real couple of FFVII. ----- Aly: Are there other significant hints, such as the colors that Aerith wears? As I understand it, red is a color associated with love and femininity. So are flowers, which are always associated with Aerith. A red ribbon, such as Aerith wears, is sometimes used in anime to represent the concept of predestined love, where two soulmates are tied together at birth by a red ribbon of fate. Cloud is able to hear Aerith's voice calling to him at a great distance when she is endangered by Sephiroth. Doesn't all of this represent a mystical bond of love to the Japanese, especially within anime? One of Aerith's weapons is an umbrella, too, which may represent the idea of aiai-gasa. It seems to me that there are many cultural hints pointing to Cloud and Aerith as the main couple of the game. Is that correct? Naru: Of course. Aerith wore the color reserved for the main heroine. If Tifa was the main heroine, she should have worn red, not black. Sure, I like wearing black because it would get less dirty; but the color black also meant death. A very bold statement, associating Tifa with death. rolleyes This person is obviously biased and doesn't know Tifa. Quote: Ah yes, the ribbon. Do you know what else is interesting about ribbon? In Japan, if you hold up your pinkie finger, that means you have a girlfriend/boyfriend or you are a girlfriend/boyfriend of someone. So in anime/ manga, there are illustrations where the couple hold up their pinkies together (meaning they are an item) and their pinkies are tied with a red string (meaning they are fated to be together). Yeah, but no one in FFVII held up their pinky to show their significant other. xd Quote: I thought the relationship between Cloud and Aerith was very romantic, to be honest. When I saw that Cloud could feel Aerith, I saw the strong bond between the two people. I mean, if you were not interested in a person at all, why would you feel other person? That alone showed a very strong bond and they were fated by gods to be together. Even when they were stuck in the prison in Shinra Building, Cloud and Tifa never exchanged any affectionate words. Cloud and Aerith, however, did. To me, it was always crystal clear who Cloud was interested in from the start. Hahaha....I suppose they refute it by using ONE scene? xd Quote: Ah, haha, aiai gasa. I thought it was more like a joke weapon with a little inside joke of her being Cloud's kano (girlfriend). ----- Aly: This is fascinating! So the red ribbon in Aerith's hair may indeed represent that there is a spiritual bond of love between Cloud and Aerith? OMG, so facinating! rolleyes Quote: Naru: Yes. It also showed of her feminine side, I think. Now, only if i can confirm that Cloud has a ribbon tied somewhere on his body j/k. ----- Aly: I suspect that Cloud x Tifa supporters will ask why Rinoa, Garnet, Terra (etc) don't wear red, and then they'll point out that Tifa has red eyes. So why does Aerith wearing red mean that she's the main heroine if the others don't wear it? Doesn't Tifa's red eyes mean that she's a heroine, too? Naru: Well, this has nothing to do with the game itself, but with the anime/manga I grew up watching. Red always associate with feminine, innocent, childlike, or spring aspect in asian culture. It used to be most popular color for the main heroine in numerous anime/manga. I believe i have posted about how the 80s hero (the partner/love interest of the main heroine) used to have stoic, calm, taciturn personality. Maybe it was another opposites attract stuff, but I always thought Cloud's personality went very well with Aerith's because it fitted the typical anime/ manga setting. Of course, depends on the heroine, they do not have to wear the color red. If the heroine happened to have a cold personality, it would be quite strange to give her the color red, no? I doubt Tifa has an innocent, childlike quality in her. Maybe she has the red eyes because of her childhood connection with the main hero. However, she was wearing black, the color associated with death and bad luck. Rinoa, Garnet, and Terra did not dress themselves in pink because they did not have the innocence and childlike personality of Aerith, but they have not worn black either. Unless the author was planning to write a tragic story, I hardly saw a main heroine wearing black clothes (unless she was in mourning or she was portrayed as a psychotic character). Whoa! Tifa a mourning and psychotic character?! That's hilarious. Quote: ----- Aly: Red is the color reserved for the main heroine of the story? (For those who do not know, the Japanese consider pink to be a shade of red. Americans consider pink to be a different color from red, Naru.) So Aerith is definitely the main heroine of the story? Naru: Yes, i strongly think so. In many anime/manga, red is reserved for the main heroine. They'd always have something red in their clothes or on themselves. ----- Aly: Are you saying that any couple other than Cloud x Aerith only exist for use in fanfics and doujins in Japan? If a Japanese person likes Cloud x Tifa, or Cloud x Yuffie, or Cloud x Zack, or whoever as a couple, they still know that the official couple of the game is Cloud x Aerith... is that correct? Oh great. rolleyes Quote: Naru: They were all fan made, right? The reason why fanfics or fan comics become popular was that people might want to see something extra or quite not agree with the official story. People just took it as the fan made, not as the official. *Blinks* Did this person answer the question or not? Somehow I feel that this Naru person doesn't know that much about FFVII. Quote: ----- Aly: Are you saying that everyone in Japan knows that Cloud and Aerith are the official couple of FFVII? Who Cloud truly loves has been debated for years here in America because of the ambiguities of the translation. Are you saying that it is quite clear to the Japanese people that Cloud and Aerith are the official couple of the game? Naru: Yes, I quite believe so. Although, lots of my guy friends preferred Tifa because she has huge chests. *cough* She was more like a fanservice character (too bad Lulu and Quistis were somewhat like that too). Quote: "I believe so." You can't base Cleris on Japanese perspective. Cloud's relationship with Aeris and Tifa is meant to be a triangle. Quote: ----- Aly: On a side note, I'd be very honored if you would look at a website written by me and my friends about Japanese Culture and the Love Triangle of FFVII. Since you are so familiar with the Japanese culture and language, I'd be curious to see whether you see the analysis as correct. Naru: Are you sure you have not been to Japan? I think you certainly did your homework on the Japanese culture. I really like your site, miss. ---- Oh...so they're going on and on about "color". rolleyes Haha, too bad for them that Tifa was supposed to wear red, but black just looked better on her. rolleyes
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:14 pm
Wow. That site is a bunch of bull. Now, I'm not going to say that Cloud doesn't care for Aeris, he obviously cares for both of them. No disrespect, but that site seems to make more reasons as to why he doesn't love Tifa rather than making any good points to evidence that claims he does love Aeris. (He obviously loves both of them on some level, but I'm speaking romantically.) I'd also like to do a critique on one of those essays when I get the chance.
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Mystifying Social Disease
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:46 pm
I'm sure we can refute all of the essays in this site. The people who wrote it are just so caught up in "Cloud does not love Tifa" rather than showing WHY he "loves Aeris." Part 2 of interview: Quote: The Translation of FFVII ----- Aly: There is a direct translation of the Japanese game available at RPGamer, and I can find many discrepancies between the Japanese version and the NA version of the FFVII. Are these the differences in translations that you're referring to? Naru: Yes. I am not saying that Square Enix of America did a bad job at translation. I am just saying that they have altered some of the conversations a bit too much, and confused the consumers. ----- Aly: I completely agree that Cloud and Aerith had a very romantic relationship, but this is not obvious to many Americans. Cloud x Tifa supporters, for example, believe that the scene where Cloud spends the night under the Highwind with Tifa is the only romantic scene in the game. Naru: My friends and I all thought that Cloud might have been subjected to ijime (bullying) by Tifa and her friends when they were all little kids. So unless Cloud was into masochism (I hope not!), why would he like the girl who bullied him during the childhood? I think the whole problem lie in cultural difference and translation. Final Fantasy VII would not be the first one to face such problems. I was quite surprised to hear all these debates because people I know (myself included) just took it as a game and nothing more. Of course, some of my guy friends did say Tifa would make better girlfriend for Cloud than Aerith was because of the size of her chest *COUGH* (but we were only joking back then). Once again, "thought". Cloud was NEVER bullied by Tifa. She didn't "ignore" him because it was the boys that came to HER. The boys were the one that "bullied" him. It's very clear how Cloud felt about Tifa and how she felt about him. In the Nibelheim incident, Cloud continued to care for Tifa, why else would he scream out, "Give mom, Tifa, and the villagers back!" The most important people to him: his mother and Tifa. If she bullied him, would he be so attached to her? Quote: Perhaps Square Enix wanted to make this game a lot different from other RPG games. Therefore, they decided to throw in many symbolism and cultural messages in it. Unfortunately, for such symbolism to work, the viewers (players) should have to understood the mechanism very well or it would cause more confusion. Yes, there are a lot of cultural messages, but I think Square wanted it to be an international message. You don't need to tell someone that you love them. A lot of people can get that message. Like Squall and Rinoa, never did Squall say "I love you". The players already knew that they were in love. This does go to Asian tradition though, because saying "I love you" is a very bold and embarrassing statement. I should know since I'm Asian. xd I've NEVER said "I love you" to anyone, not even my parents. Vice versa, my parents never said "I love you" to me. We don't HAVE to say it to show that we love each other. Plus, why are these people just including Cleris? Cloud and Tifa never said "I love you" or "I care for you" but they definitely show it through actions. Even Tifa said "words don't always tell what you're thinking".
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:56 pm
That person didn't come off as a very reliable source to the Japanese Culture (HOMG, SHE CAN SPEAK JAPANESE, HOMG HER PARENTS ARE JAPANESE) of for Final Fantasy in that sense. (Terra, who she should probably know as TINA did wear both pink AND red, =P). Anyway, the conversation doesn't include that because that's how Aly and Naru pushed to conversation. Vincent wears red. That must make him compatible with Aeris.
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Truthiness3x4 Vice Captain
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:35 pm
Kefka-Daisuki-Desu! That person didn't come off as a very reliable source to the Japanese Culture (HOMG, SHE CAN SPEAK JAPANESE, HOMG HER PARENTS ARE JAPANESE) of for Final Fantasy in that sense. (Terra, who she should probably know as TINA did wear both pink AND red, =P). Anyway, the conversation doesn't include that because that's how Aly and Naru pushed to conversation. Vincent wears red. That must make him compatible with Aeris. Yeah, especially the Aly person. rolleyes She's desperate for ANY information that would support Cleris.
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:39 pm
I just find it sad... that there is so scarce of evidence from the VII game to support Cleris, that the Cleris fans need to invent their own proof. Heh!
I've noticed that not many Cleris quote the actual game. There are a ton of Cloti quotes--- why can't they think of even one Cleris one without searching the game desperately? xD This is why Cleris use hidden 'symbols' and astrological signs as proof.
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Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:10 pm
Unfortunately, that's as far as they can go. Symbolic meaning is worthless unless you have something to back it up....as in TRUE CLARIFIED EVIDENCE! Cleris tend to over-analyze scenes/quotes and turn it into something ridiculous and farfetched. Buuuuut, also, that means that Cleris tend to think more romantically while us Cloti are more factual. Not to say that we aren't romantic. biggrin Cloti has some of the cutest moments together!
(Ooh...a Crisis Core cutscene showing the Nibelheim event, when Tifa was unconscious, he was caressing Tifa's cheek too. (Of course, she didn't respond like in Last Order. That clears things up. xd crying )
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Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:46 pm
Twindream Unfortunately, that's as far as they can go. Symbolic meaning is worthless unless you have something to back it up....as in TRUE CLARIFIED EVIDENCE! Cleris tend to over-analyze scenes/quotes and turn it into something ridiculous and farfetched. Buuuuut, also, that means that Cleris tend to think more romantically while us Cloti are more factual. Not to say that we aren't romantic. biggrin Cloti has some of the cutest moments together! (Ooh...a Crisis Core cutscene showing the Nibelheim event, when Tifa was unconscious, he was caressing Tifa's cheek too. (Of course, she didn't respond like in Last Order. That clears things up. xd crying )
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Truthiness3x4 Vice Captain
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Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:04 pm
Well about Destiny Fullfilled their is a project to fix it up. ^^ Eh Aly is nice but I do agree she is biased, but hey we all are. And yes this site terribly needs some fixing and they are working. I'm not sure but I do believe they cant get into or something. I dunno.
eh what? you want ingame proof of clerith. I'll give it to ya! You guys are talking to all the wrong people wink
Ying yang symbolism? what the...
This scene itself takes place among flowers planted and tended to by Aerith before her death-- flowers that have become a sort of symbol for Aerith herself. Not only that, but this scene takes place in Aerith's church, the place where she and Cloud first met. Add in the fact that "Water", music that only plays when Aerith's presence is near, and the fact that Cloud and Tifa are surrounded by a white light that only appears when Aerith is on screen and the idea starts to become more concrete. Also since we are talking about themes if this was such a romantic cloti scene why isnt Tifa's theme playing? Throw in the wolf, the symbol of Cloud's guilt, standing right next to him and the truth reveals itself-- the scene is actually all about Aerith. Cloud and Tifa lying unconscious in Aerith's flowers, in Aerith's church, while Aerith's music plays, surrounded by Aerith's light, and accompanied by the symbol of Cloud's guilt for Aerith's death... and you came up with the idea of a CloTi romance how?
Here's proof from Reunion Files:
"There's some foreshadowing that the church is where Aerith is going to appear," says Nojima. "There's a point in the plot where Cloud and Tifa are lying unconscious on the flowers here and their wounds are healed. Also, Aerith has a sort of 'watery' image about her, so we used water to convey her presence."
So, yeah, you can go on about yin-yang symbolism, but you know what? The creators say otherwise. The creators stated that the scene was about Aerith healing Cloud and Tifa and foreshadowed her later appearance in the church. not cloti 'romance' rolleyes
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Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:23 pm
Oh, a cut and paste rant straight from FF_Goddess herself. *circle clap* Yes, the scene shows that Aeris' presence is there and that she heals Cloud and Tifa's wounds, but that doesn't mean that's all the scene had to offer.
Look at the position Cloud and Tifa fell in when his geostigma acted up. Judging about how he was holding her before he toppled over they shouldn't have landed in a postion that resembles a Yin-yang. Quote: Yīn (陰 or 阴 "shady place, north slope, south bank (river); cloudy, overcast"; Japanese: in or on) is the dark element: it is passive, dark, feminine, downward-seeking, and corresponds to the night. Quote: Yáng (陽 or 阳 "sunny place, south slope, north bank (river), sunshine"; Japanese: yō) is the bright element: it is active, light, masculine, upward-seeking and corresponds to the daytime.
Quote: Yin is often symbolized by water and air, while yang is symbolized by fire and earth.
It may read a little shotty because it is shotty. I haven't slept in over a day and I don't have Advent Children on hand so that's the best I could do with my limited resources. >//<
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Truthiness3x4 Vice Captain
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