|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:53 pm
I'm not trying to offend Christians on here or anything, but if you're Christian, and don't want to read an essay that questions Christianity, stop reading this because I do just that. To those who do read the 2600 word "Masterpiece", please excuse the grammar... I couldn't be bothered to edit this because I originally inteneded for it to go to the GD or some other intellectual wasteland of the sorts. Here it goes!
Attis of Greece (1200 BC) Born of a virgin on December 25th, crucified, burried for 3 days
And then resurected.
Mithra of Persia (1200 BC) Was born of a virgin on December 25th had 12 deciples and 3 days
after his death he was resurected.
The fact of the matter is that there are many figures such as the three I have told you
about from all over the world in many different times that subscrube to these general
characteristics.
I could name all of the ones that I have found and I will:
Crishna (Hindostan)
Budha (Sakia of India)
Salivahana (Bermuda)
Zulis, Zhule, Osiris and Orus (Egypt)
Odin (Scandinavians)
Crite (Chaldea)
Zoroaster and Mithra (Persia)
Bali (Afghanistan)
Indra (Tibet
Jao (Nepal)
Wittoba (The Bilingonese)
Thammuz (Syria)
Atys (Phrygia)
Xamolxis (Thrace)
Zoar (Bonzes)
Adad (Assyria)
Deva Tat, Sammonocadam (Siam)
Alcides (Thebes)
Mikado (The Sintoos)
Beddru (Japan)
Hesus or Eros and Bremrillah (Of the Druids)
Hil and Feta (Mandaites)
Gentaut and Quexalcote (Mexico)
Ischy (Formosa)
Holy One (Xaca)
Fohi and Tien (China)
Adonis (Greece)
Ixion and Quirinus (Rome)
Prometheus (Caucasus)
Many of these cultures were not in contact with one another at the time of the creation of
the figures listed above. The question remains: Why do these figures all have the same
life outline? Why the virgin birth on December the 25th? Why dead for three days and then
resurected? Why 12 deciples or followers? To find out let's examine the most recent of the
solar mesias.
Jesus Christ was born of the Virrgin Marie on December the 25th in Bethlaham. His birth was
announced by a star in the East, which three kings followed to find the place of birth and
adorn the new savior. He was a child teacher at the age of 12. At the age of 30 he was
baptized and thus began his ministry. Jesus had 12 deciples that he traveled about with
proforming miracles such as healing the sick and walking on water, raising the dead and many
others. After being betrayed by one of his deciples, Jesus was crucified, dead for 3 days
and then resurected and ascended into heaven.
First of all the birth sequence (Born of a virgin, the star in the east and the three kings)
is completely asterlogical.
The star in the east is Sirius (the brightest star in the night sky) which on December the
24th alligns with the three brightest stars in Orions belt. These three bright stars are
called today what they were called in ancient times: "The three kings". The line that the
three kings and Sirus make on December the 24th point to the sunrise on December the 25th.
This is why in the Bible the three kings follow the star in the East; in order to locate
the sunrise on December the 25th- the birth place of the Sun on December the 25th.
The virgin Marie is the constellation Virgo. The ancient symbol for Virgo is 'M'. This
is why other mythological virgin mother's names such as Dionysus'mother, Myra or Budha's
Mother, Myra, begin with an 'M'.
Virgo is also referred to as the house of bread and the representation of virgo is a virgin
holding a sheaf of wheat. This house of bread and sheaf of wheat represent August and
September: The time of harvest. In turn Bethlaham literally translates to "house of bread",
Bethlaham in the bible is thus a referance to virgo: a place in the sky, not on Earth.
Another curious thing happens around December the 25th. From the Summer solstice to the
Winter solstice, the days become shorter and colder. From the prespective of the Northen
hemisphere, the sun appears to be moving South and seems to be becoming smaller and more
scarce. The shortening of the days and the experiation of the crops symbolized the process
of death to the ancients- it was the death of the sun. By December the 22nd the Sun's demize
was fully realised for the sun which had been moving South continually for 6 months now
makes it to its lowest point in the sky. Here a curious thing occurs: the sun stops moving
South- atleast preceivably for 3 days. And during this 3 day pause, the sun resides below
the Southern cross or crux constellation. And after this time, on December 25th, the Sun
moves one degree, this time North- foreshadowing longer days, warmth and spring. Thus
it was said: the sun died on the cross, was dead for three days and then resurected and
ascended into heaven. Sound familiar? This is why Jesus and numerous other Sun gods share
the crucifiction, three day death and resurection concept. It is the Sun's trastion period
before it switches its direction back into the Northern hemisphere, thus bringing slavation.
Probably the most obvious of all the asterogical referances surrounding Jesus is the 12
deciples- they are merely the 12 constellations of the zodiac. Which Jesus, being the sun
travels about with. the number 12 is repeated through out the bible. The 12 tribes of israel
the 12 brothers of joseph, 12 judges of israel, 12 great patriachs, 12 OT prophets, 12 kings
of israel, 12 princes of israel, Jesus in temple at 12. The Bible has more to do with
astrology than anything else.
Of the many asterlogical and astronomical metaphors in the bible, one of the most important
has to do with the ages. Throughout the scriptures, there are numerous referances to the
age. Inorder to understand this, we need to be familiar with the phenomenum known as
"The precession of the equinoxes".
The ancient Eygptians along with many cultures long before them recognized that roughly
every 2150 years, the sunrize on the morning of the spring equinox would occur under a
different sign of the zodiac. This is due to an angular wobble that the Earth maintains
as it spins on its axis. It is called a precession because the signs go backwards rather
than through the normal yearly cycle. Ancient soceities new this and called every 2150 year
period an 'age'.
From 4300 BC to 2150 BC it was the age of Taurus, the Bull. From 2150 BC to 1 AD it was the
age of Aries, The Ram. From 1 AD to 2150 AD it is the age of pisces, the fish, the age we
are still in today. And in around 2150, we will enter the new age, the age of aquarious,
the water bearer.
The Bible reflects the symbolic movement through 3 ages while foreshadowing a fourth.
In the old testament when Moses comes down Mount Siani with the 10 commandments he sees his
desciples worshiping a golden bull calf, Moses was very upset with this. Infact, Moses
shattered the commandments and instructed his people to kill eachother in order to be
purified in Exodudus 32. Most biblical scholars will tribute Moses' anger to the fact that
the Israelites were worshipping a false idol or something to that effect. The reality is
that the golden bull is Taurus the bull and Moses represents the age after Taurus: the age
of Aries the Ram. This is why Jews even to this day blow the Ram's horn. Moses represents
the new age of Aries, and upon the new age everyone must shed the old one. Other deities
represent this transition as well, such as Mithra, a pre christian god who kills the Bull
in the same symbology.
Jesus represents the age following the age of the Taurus- the age of Pisces or the age of
two fish. Fish symbolizm is very abundant in the new testament. Jesus feeds 5000 people
with bread and 2 fish. When Jesus begins his ministry, he befriends two fishermen. I think
we have all seen the Jesus fish on the back of people's cars- little do they know it's an
aestrological symbol. Also, Jesus' assumed birthdate is essentially the start of this new
age. In Luke 22:10 when one of Jesus' followers asks where the next pass over will be once
Jesus is gone, Jesus replies "Behold, when ye are entered in the city there shall a man
meet you bearing a pitcher of water... follow him into the house where he entereth in".
This scripture is by far one of the most revealing of all the aesterlogical referances
within the bible. The man bearing the pitcher of water is aquarious the water bearer who is
always pictured as a man pouring out a pitcher of water. He represents the age after pisces.
All Jesus is saying is after the age of pisces will come the age of aquarious.
We have all heard about the end times and the end of the world. The cartoonish depictions
in the book of revolations asside, the main source of this idea comes from Matthew 28:20
where Jesus says "I will be with you even to the end of the world". However in the king
James version, 'world' is a mistranslation among many others. The actual word being used is
aeon which means age. Jesus is really saying "I will be with you even to the end of the age"
which is true because Jesus' age ends when the Sun enters the age of Aquarious. The whole
concept of the end times is a mistranslated misinterperated allagory. Tell that to the
approximately 100 million Americans who believe the end of the world is comming.
Furthermore the character of Jesus being a literary and aesterlogical hybrid is most
explicately a plagerisation of the Egytian sun god Horus. for example, enscribed 3500 years
ago on the walls in the temple of Luxor in Egypt; are images of the announciation, the
immaculate conception, the birth and the adoration of Horus. This is exactly the story of
Jesus' conception. infact, the literary similarities between the christian religon and the
Egyptian religon are staggering. And the plagerism is continuous. The story of Noah and
Noah's ark was taken directly from tradition. There are over 200 different claims throughout
time of a great flood, however, one need look no further for a pre christian source then the
epic of Gilgamesh written in 2600 BC. The epic of Gilgamesh is exactly the same as the
story of Noah's ark.
And then there is the plagerized story of Moses. Upon Moses' birth, it is said that he was
placed in a reed basket and set adrift in a river inorder to avoid infanticide he was later
rescued by a daughter of royalty and raised by her as a prince. This reed in baby in a
basket myth was lifted directly from the myth of Sargon (2250 BC). Sargon was placed in a
basket to avoid infanticide rescued by a royal mid wife and raised ad a prince. Furthermore,
Moses is known as the law giver, the giver of the 10 commandments: the Mosaic law. However,
the idea of a law being passed from god to a prophet, up on a mountain is also very old motif.
Moses is just another law giver in a long line of law givers in mythological history. In India,
Manou was the great law giver. In Crete, Minnos ascended Mount Dicta where Zues gave him the
sacred laws. While in Egypt there was Mises, who carried stone tablets and upon them, the laws
of God were written. Monou, Minos, Mises, Moses. As far as Moses' 10 commandments go, they are
taken outright from spell 125 of the Egyptian book of the dead. "I have not stolen" became
"Thou shall not steal". "I have not killed" became "Thou shall not kill". "I have not told lies"
Became "Thou shall not bare false wittness". And so forth. Infact, the Egyptian religon is
likely the primary foundation for the Juedal Christian theology. Baptism, afterlife, final
judgment, virgin birth, death then resurrection, crucifixion, the ark of the covenant,
circumsission, saviors, holy communion, great flood, Easter, Christmas, passover, and many many
more all all attributes of Egyptian religon, long predating Christianity and Jeudism.
Justin Martyr, one of the first Christian historians and defenders (100-165 AD), wrote "when we say
that Jesus Christ, our teacher, was produced without sexual union, was crucified, resurected and
asscended into heaven, we propund nothing different then what you believe of the sons of Jupiter."
In another writing, Justin wrote "He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you
believe of Perrseus". It's obvious that Justin and other early Christians knew how similar
Christianity is to the other Paegan religons. However, Justin had a solution. As far as he was
concerned, the devil did it.
The Bible is merely an astrological literary hybrid just like almost all religous myths before it.
infact, the transferance of one character's attributes to another can be found within the book itself.
In the old testament there is the story of Joseph. Joseph was the prototype for Jesus. Joseph was born
of a miracle birth, Jesus was born of a miracle birth. Joseph was of 12 brothers, Jesus had 12 desciples.
Joseph was sold for 20 pieces of silver, Jesus was sold for 30 pieces of silver. Judah suggests the sale
of Joseph, Judas suggests the sale of Jesus. Joseph began his work at the age of 30, Jesus began his
work at the age of 30. The parallels go on and on.
Furthermore, are there any non biblical historicalrecords of a man named Jesus travelling about with 12
desciples healing the sick and the alike? There were numerous historians who lived in or soon after the
time Jesus supposedly lived. How many of these historians document Jesus? Not one! However, to be fair,
that doesn't mean the defenders of the historical Jesus haven't claimed the contrary. 4 historians are
typical referanced to justify Jesus' existance. Pliny the younger, Platonius and Tasitus are the first
3. They are a few senances at best and only refer to "Christus" or "The christ" which infact is not a name,
but a title. It means "The anointed one". The fourth source is Josephus, and this source has been proven to
be a forgary by christians trying to justify Jesus' existance for hundreds of years. Only lies need lies.
The truth always mannages to surface itself on its own. Why did the christians feel they had to lie to prove
Jesus' existance? Sadly, this source is still cited as truth. You would think that a guy that rose from the
dead and ascended into heaven for all eyes to see and proformed the wealth of miracles acclaimed to him in
the bible would make it into the historical records. There isn't because once you weigh out the facts, there
are very high odds that the figure known as Jesus did not even exist.
The reality is the Jesus is the solar deity of the nostic Christian sect, and like all other paegan gods, he
was a mythical figure. It was the political establishment that sought to historize the Jesus figure for
social control. By 325 AD in Rome, Emporer Constantine conveined the council of nicea. It was during this
politically motivated meeting that the Christian doctrines were established and thus began a long history
of Christian bloodshed and spiritual fraud. For the next 1600 years, the Vatican maintained a political
strangle hold on all of Europe. Leading to such joyous periods as the dark ages, the crusades, and the
inquisition. Christianity is the fraud of the age. It serves to detatch the species from the natural world
and likewise, eachother. It supports blind submission to authority. It reduces human responsibility to the
effect that "God" Controls everything and in turn, awful crimes can be carried out in the name of a devine
persuit. And most importantly it impowers the people who know the truth, but use the myth to manipulate
and control soceities. The religous myth is the most powerful tool ever created and serves as the physcological
soil on which other myths can flourish.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:24 am
Ok, honestly, why did you bother posting that here? It would have been better suited to GD, where other people wanting to bash christianity could join you.
First off, if you'd looked into it you would have known that Jesus' birthday has been agreed to most likely have been in July according to scientists/astronomists, not December 25 as Christians celebrate. Christians were persecuted by Romans during the time when they were Rome's slaves... December 25 there was the festival for one of their gods, I believe Dyonsis, while their masters were out playing Christians were celebrating the birth of their lord. The Christmas tree is actually taken from pagan beliefs.
Obviously, Rome's religion was pagan at the time, so the similarity isn't all that astonishing.
It's been said, by those who realize that Jesus was really born in the summer, that the three wise men were really astronomers... so seeing the star formation they knew something was up and wanted to go see what it was.
Easter is a traditionally pagan holiday, centered around equinox, yet again. What better way to convert pagans than to convince them that they're really not worshiping a god that's all that different from the ones they already have. Hence why we have the Easter bunny, Easter eggs and all that stuff that makes you go "how exactly does this relate to Christ?"
You may say "Oh man, you're admitting the Bible is false and Christians are wrong!" I don't remember anything in the Bible telling the actual times and dates of these actual events, these have just gone down on the Christian calender the way they are. And I have just admitted that Christians are good at converting large numbers of people by merging their beliefs. My favorite example of Christianity changing to bring in more followers would be with Paul himself, who dreamed that certain animals traditionally "unclean" were suddenly alright to eat, which only helped Christians to convert pagans who would be used to having eaten those animals and not want to give them up.
You say that the Bible merely stole from other beliefs, but at the same time you list multiple sources telling the same story... most myth is based in some sort of fact...so is it really religious plagarism to tell of a great flood if there was one? The tower of Babel is based off a real tower, although honestly I don't recall which country, I believe it was in Turkey. I believe that if many religions claim the same story that makes it all the more believable to me. Many of the events claimed in the Bible have been proven to have happened. I think all religion and even science agrees, the world was created...are they all copying one another? Should we start a religion where the world wasn't created? Would that make it more true because it's the only one saying the world wasn't created?
The virgin birth, is it really all that big of a surprise to find it in more than one country? If I was a girl during that time, and I got knocked up outside of wedlock, I'd sure as hell try to play the "I'M A VIRGIN, IT'S A VIRGIN BIRTH!" card. And maybe it's true, I don't doubt that Jesus was a virgin birth, and that the holy spirit descended upon Mary, but I just wouldn't be so surprised to hear of it in other cultures. I'm not in the know on how all of those births came to pass.
Your argument that because there are no historical records of Jesus at the time, he's any less real? Do you know how many prophets there were at that time? John the Baptist was yet another, also a miracle birth... And then there were countless others I don't even know about to name. For years and years after Christ's death Christianity was not a religion, at least not the religion it is today. In fact, Jesus was a jew, he was never a "Christian". Followers of Christ were a miniscule sect of Judaism. It wasn't until Paul that they really came into their own and became their own religion. It was lucky for them that Emperor Constantine decided to make Rome's official religion Christianity, which really buffeted it to new heights and helped to make it the mega power it was and still is today.
However, I am one of those Christians of the belief that the Bible was written by men, and is therefor flawed... it doesn't mean I'm any less Christian or that I don't believe in Christ as my savior who died for my sins. I mean, even the translations are flawed, and that's from one language to another, I somehow doubt the language of God is that easily translated into any human language, just like "Yaweh" isn't his real name. And how everybody translates what they do know of the Bible is going to be different. Yes, the catholic church used it to hold power during the dark ages... and held their power above king's heads. People have used Christianity to do terrible things, but they have for other religions as well, can anybody say September 11? I don't see anybody writing why Aztecs are horrible for human sacrafices in the name of their religion. Most people don't even realize that there are cultures and religions where cannibalism is a major part, but typically these get defended saying "it's part of their cutlure and tradition, we can't judge them"
What makes Christianity different? Is Christianity the only bad one because of the scale? Because something about us has stuck longer than many other religions? There's something about us that keeps people believing, and brings new people in on a greater scale than the older religions? Because Christianity can adapt to bring in more people than other religions? Yes, bad things have been done in the name of Christianity, but why do people focus on this instead of the positive aspects? Probably because if you aren't Christian, it's easier to fear it than understand it and respect it despite not believing it. Even most Christians don't bother to understand their religion because they are raised with it, they learn what they think they need to learn... I grew up against abortion but for the death penalty, but as I got older I realized that even though a baby is innocent and a murderer isn't, it's God's place to decide who lives or dies, so now I'm against both. It's the same with other parts of my faith that I bothered to think more about and look more into. But there are bad christians, and people who make bad mistakes and make their faith look bad, I've met through my boyfriend two people who would turn me off to Christianity were I not one and I didn't know better. His youth minister wouldn't even allow him to call me during a lock in two days after my beloved dog had died... not even to tell me he couldn't talk... I waited up that night for Rob, sniffling and crying and wanting to die because I didn't have my dog who I loved more than almost anything... that is NOT showing God's love, and there are so many times I wanted to write that youth minister and tell him what I think of his actions, and how he should be more careful to show God's love. And Rob's grandfather, he's one of those guys who thinks people will admire him and respect him if they think he's a christian, but it's obvious he really doesn't get his own religion and if he is one, he's a pathetic excuse for one. Self-centered, lazy and closed-minded. He listens to John Hagee, whom I can't stand and think is an idiot... always bellowing his crap, but he doesn't really know what he's talking about "Harry Potter is the work of the devil!" After going to see him in Washington DC, Rob's grandfather came back claiming all the middle eastern taxi drivers were terrorists, and he even called his senator about them... There are shitty people covering their asses for the shitty things they do in the name of Christianity. But there are good people, very good people. And most non-christians don't understand that no Christian is perfect, and anybody who claims to be doesn't understand their faith... Christianity is about trying your hardest to be the best person you can be, and when you make a mistake asking forgiveness for it, and making the effort not to make the same mistake. Christianity is about love, because God is love... "God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, so that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have ever-lasting life" You're trying to question Christianity because of times and dates, but those aren't what's important to those who believe it, it's about the message...something you don't seem to get. Faith is about believing in what you can't see.
You just spouted off poorly informed judgments about Christianity, Christianity isn't about submission to authority, it's about trying to be a good person, it's about helping people, it's about love. Even if Christianity didn't exist, there are still other religions, are they not "detaching the species from the natural world?" How can you honestly say Christianity detaches people from one another, have you not seen the mega-churches? After September 11th, did you not see the unity of Christians coming together to show God's love? No, Christian organizations weren't the only ones, and there were many non-religious organizations that did the same things, but your argument is really honestly ill-informed and pathetic. It doesn't reduce human responsibility because you are responsible for your actions with Christianity, nobody else is going to be the one to repent for you, at least in the protestant faiths I'm familiar with. You have to pay for your actions in the afterlife, if you don't honestly repent in the present life... God may know what will happen, but he doesn't control it. I'm not saying he can't, but my actions are my own. So many people don't get that humans have free will, that God allows us to go about our lives and he knows what we're going to do but we still up until the moment we do it have the choice to make to do or not do it.
I'd like to point out, if you're trying to question Christianity you're questioning Judaism, as well... which shares the story of Moses and the tower of Babel... but why did you chose to try to question Christianity instead of Judaism, or both? Even Muslims believe that Jesus existed and that he was a great man, and a prophet, although not the son of God. And honestly, I have to question your logic with this:Quote: Tell that to the approximately 100 million Americans who believe the end of the world is comming.
I wish I could go more in-depth, give better clearer answers, but I actually need to be getting ready for work, so if that doesn't make sense it's a shame, but I'm not trying to convert anybody, so oh well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:14 am
The Dread Pirate Ghosty Ok, honestly, why did you bother posting that here? It would have been better suited to GD, where other people wanting to bash christianity could join you.
First off, if you'd looked into it you would have known that Jesus' birthday has been agreed to most likely have been in July according to scientists/astronomists, not December 25 as Christians celebrate. Christians were persecuted by Romans during the time when they were Rome's slaves... December 25 there was the festival for one of their gods, I believe Dyonsis, while their masters were out playing Christians were celebrating the birth of their lord. The Christmas tree is actually taken from pagan beliefs.
Obviously, Rome's religion was pagan at the time, so the similarity isn't all that astonishing.
It's been said, by those who realize that Jesus was really born in the summer, that the three wise men were really astronomers... so seeing the star formation they knew something was up and wanted to go see what it was.
Easter is a traditionally pagan holiday, centered around equinox, yet again. What better way to convert pagans than to convince them that they're really not worshiping a god that's all that different from the ones they already have. Hence why we have the Easter bunny, Easter eggs and all that stuff that makes you go "how exactly does this relate to Christ?"
You may say "Oh man, you're admitting the Bible is false and Christians are wrong!" I don't remember anything in the Bible telling the actual times and dates of these actual events, these have just gone down on the Christian calender the way they are. And I have just admitted that Christians are good at converting large numbers of people by merging their beliefs. My favorite example of Christianity changing to bring in more followers would be with Paul himself, who dreamed that certain animals traditionally "unclean" were suddenly alright to eat, which only helped Christians to convert pagans who would be used to having eaten those animals and not want to give them up.
You say that the Bible merely stole from other beliefs, but at the same time you list multiple sources telling the same story... most myth is based in some sort of fact...so is it really religious plagarism to tell of a great flood if there was one? The tower of Babel is based off a real tower, although honestly I don't recall which country, I believe it was in Turkey. I believe that if many religions claim the same story that makes it all the more believable to me. Many of the events claimed in the Bible have been proven to have happened. I think all religion and even science agrees, the world was created...are they all copying one another? Should we start a religion where the world wasn't created? Would that make it more true because it's the only one saying the world wasn't created?
The virgin birth, is it really all that big of a surprise to find it in more than one country? If I was a girl during that time, and I got knocked up outside of wedlock, I'd sure as hell try to play the "I'M A VIRGIN, IT'S A VIRGIN BIRTH!" card. And maybe it's true, I don't doubt that Jesus was a virgin birth, and that the holy spirit descended upon Mary, but I just wouldn't be so surprised to hear of it in other cultures. I'm not in the know on how all of those births came to pass.
Your argument that because there are no historical records of Jesus at the time, he's any less real? Do you know how many prophets there were at that time? John the Baptist was yet another, also a miracle birth... And then there were countless others I don't even know about to name. For years and years after Christ's death Christianity was not a religion, at least not the religion it is today. In fact, Jesus was a jew, he was never a "Christian". Followers of Christ were a miniscule sect of Judaism. It wasn't until Paul that they really came into their own and became their own religion. It was lucky for them that Emperor Constantine decided to make Rome's official religion Christianity, which really buffeted it to new heights and helped to make it the mega power it was and still is today.
However, I am one of those Christians of the belief that the Bible was written by men, and is therefor flawed... it doesn't mean I'm any less Christian or that I don't believe in Christ as my savior who died for my sins. I mean, even the translations are flawed, and that's from one language to another, I somehow doubt the language of God is that easily translated into any human language, just like "Yaweh" isn't his real name. And how everybody translates what they do know of the Bible is going to be different. Yes, the catholic church used it to hold power during the dark ages... and held their power above king's heads. People have used Christianity to do terrible things, but they have for other religions as well, can anybody say September 11? I don't see anybody writing why Aztecs are horrible for human sacrafices in the name of their religion. Most people don't even realize that there are cultures and religions where cannibalism is a major part, but typically these get defended saying "it's part of their cutlure and tradition, we can't judge them"
What makes Christianity different? Is Christianity the only bad one because of the scale? Because something about us has stuck longer than many other religions? There's something about us that keeps people believing, and brings new people in on a greater scale than the older religions? Because Christianity can adapt to bring in more people than other religions? Yes, bad things have been done in the name of Christianity, but why do people focus on this instead of the positive aspects? Probably because if you aren't Christian, it's easier to fear it than understand it and respect it despite not believing it. Even most Christians don't bother to understand their religion because they are raised with it, they learn what they think they need to learn... I grew up against abortion but for the death penalty, but as I got older I realized that even though a baby is innocent and a murderer isn't, it's God's place to decide who lives or dies, so now I'm against both. It's the same with other parts of my faith that I bothered to think more about and look more into. But there are bad christians, and people who make bad mistakes and make their faith look bad, I've met through my boyfriend two people who would turn me off to Christianity were I not one and I didn't know better. His youth minister wouldn't even allow him to call me during a lock in two days after my beloved dog had died... not even to tell me he couldn't talk... I waited up that night for Rob, sniffling and crying and wanting to die because I didn't have my dog who I loved more than almost anything... that is NOT showing God's love, and there are so many times I wanted to write that youth minister and tell him what I think of his actions, and how he should be more careful to show God's love. And Rob's grandfather, he's one of those guys who thinks people will admire him and respect him if they think he's a christian, but it's obvious he really doesn't get his own religion and if he is one, he's a pathetic excuse for one. Self-centered, lazy and closed-minded. He listens to John Hagee, whom I can't stand and think is an idiot... always bellowing his crap, but he doesn't really know what he's talking about "Harry Potter is the work of the devil!" After going to see him in Washington DC, Rob's grandfather came back claiming all the middle eastern taxi drivers were terrorists, and he even called his senator about them... There are shitty people covering their asses for the shitty things they do in the name of Christianity. But there are good people, very good people. And most non-christians don't understand that no Christian is perfect, and anybody who claims to be doesn't understand their faith... Christianity is about trying your hardest to be the best person you can be, and when you make a mistake asking forgiveness for it, and making the effort not to make the same mistake. Christianity is about love, because God is love... "God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, so that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have ever-lasting life" You're trying to question Christianity because of times and dates, but those aren't what's important to those who believe it, it's about the message...something you don't seem to get. Faith is about believing in what you can't see.
You just spouted off poorly informed judgments about Christianity, Christianity isn't about submission to authority, it's about trying to be a good person, it's about helping people, it's about love. Even if Christianity didn't exist, there are still other religions, are they not "detaching the species from the natural world?" How can you honestly say Christianity detaches people from one another, have you not seen the mega-churches? After September 11th, did you not see the unity of Christians coming together to show God's love? No, Christian organizations weren't the only ones, and there were many non-religious organizations that did the same things, but your argument is really honestly ill-informed and pathetic. It doesn't reduce human responsibility because you are responsible for your actions with Christianity, nobody else is going to be the one to repent for you, at least in the protestant faiths I'm familiar with. You have to pay for your actions in the afterlife, if you don't honestly repent in the present life... God may know what will happen, but he doesn't control it. I'm not saying he can't, but my actions are my own. So many people don't get that humans have free will, that God allows us to go about our lives and he knows what we're going to do but we still up until the moment we do it have the choice to make to do or not do it.
I'd like to point out, if you're trying to question Christianity you're questioning Judaism, as well... which shares the story of Moses and the tower of Babel... but why did you chose to try to question Christianity instead of Judaism, or both? Even Muslims believe that Jesus existed and that he was a great man, and a prophet, although not the son of God. And honestly, I have to question your logic with this:Quote: Tell that to the approximately 100 million Americans who believe the end of the world is comming.
I wish I could go more in-depth, give better clearer answers, but I actually need to be getting ready for work, so if that doesn't make sense it's a shame, but I'm not trying to convert anybody, so oh well. Even if Jesus' Brithday wasn't December the 25th (Not that he actually was born) December the 25th is Saturnalia, a celebration of the birth of the Roman Sun God. I have a pretty good idea why early Christians would associate Jesus' birth with the birth of the sun. Early Christians seemed to have known that Jesus was infact the sun. The cross with the intersect point being the middle of a circle is actually the short hand for the zodiac. The lines on the cross represent the Seasons, while the circle represents the Sun... Why might churches use this symbol on their Christian buildings? Early art of Jesus always shows Jesus' head on the cross... it looks a lot like the zodiac symbol on churches hmmm... I wonder why they alywalys drew Jesus like that untill Constantine had his little meeting to make Christianity into what it is today? Could it be that constantine wanted Jesus to be seen as a real person instead of the sun so that he could more easily use Christianity as a political tool? I wonder... The Bible does not give exact dates, it does however mention historical figures. If you read the Gospel accourding to Matthew,in chapter 2 it says that Jesus was born und the reign of King Harrid. In verse 16 of Luke, it says the King Harrid roung up all the infants in Bethlaham and had them put to the sword in an effort to find and kill baby Jesus. There is no historical record that this ever happened, but none the less, it establishes that Jesus had to have been born before 4 BC because King Harrid died in 4 BC. On the other hand, if you read the Gospel according to Luke, it says that Jesus was born during the census under Cyrenius of Syria. This establishes that Jesus was born 6 AD because Cyrenius didn't become Governor of Syria until 6 AD. so let me get this straight... Jesus was born before 4 BC but after 6 AD *Robot voice* "Does not compute. Absolutely if there's no historical record of a man walking on water, turning water into wine, feeding the poor with magically generated food, resurecting the dead, chasing out demons; All infront wittnesses, it's pretty damn safe to say that either Jesus never existed and the Bible is a made up story... or that Jesus was a loser that nobody noticed and only after his death he was made into a fake story. Philo the Jewish historian who lived at the right time ant the right place who wrote extensively about Ponches Pilate (who would have been historically insignificant in comparrison to Jesus) didn't write a word about Jesus. If Jesus did exist he wouldn't have only been written about in the Bible. For example the only place to read about Donald Trump isn't only in his Biography... Donald made enough of a historical impact that many people wrote about him... The same would be true for Jesus if existed. As far as understanding Christianity goes... read Deuteronomy 20:13-14... horrible isn't it? Christianity detatches us from nature... read the 10 commandments. It goes against nature. Furthermore somewhere in the bible, Jesus suggests that you should casterize yourself inorder to achieve purification. I'll look into it for you. The horrible deeds that came to be because of Christianity far out weigh the pros. As far is your ending statement goes 1 in 3 Americans are obese. What is your response to that? "omg, u thinck onlie amerkianz r fat?" Sorry couldn't help the noob writting xP
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:48 pm
I just told you exactly why early Christians chose to associate December 25 with Jesus' birthday. You realize there are more theological scholars who would agree with me, rather than you?
Perhaps they chose to use the cross with the circle... because I dunno, could it be that maybe they chose to use a cross with a circle around it due to the whole Jesus dying on the cross, and also the fact that it's reminiscent of a halo, since Jesus is holy and whatnot?
Although, the celtic cross, if that's the type you're referring to, wasn't picked up until later due to the fact that it was easier to convert pagans using their own symbols.
That reminds me, I forgot to mention the choice of the use of the fish as Jesus' symbol is due to the fact that, I believe in greek, the way to spell Christ was the same as the way to spell fish, it was a code so they wouldn't get their asses wooped. The whole "I will make you fishers of men" thing didn't hurt, either.
Most biblical scholars will agree you cannot take the dates the Bible says to heart, since the Bible contradicts itself being written hundreds of years after the death of Jesus and also due to the fact it was written by several different men. And I believe I explained earlier about how Jesus was a nobody, and his followers were few up until Constantine took up Christianity for Rome. He was another Jewish prophet in his time, he would not have had records written about him. Not everybody witnessed his walking on water, just his disciples, when he returned from the grave he first showed himself to the women who had followed him, then his disciples. The key thing is that Jesus wasn't like normal men, he didn't go parading about his powers to everyone, in the Bible it says he wouldn't walk on water to save his own life in front of Herod, he could have, but he didn't. You don't get, even after being told, that Jesus was not important to the Jews or anybody else after his death... so no, there will not be records of him. The Jewish people believed that Christ would be a king, who would come and radically save them from opression through a great battle, not spiritually but physically. Their messiah was sure to come in a great and glamorous battle and save them from their opressors, so what did a man who preached peaceful ways matter?
Using a modern example like Donald Trump is hardly a decent way to compare... had there been computers in Jesus' day, I bet he would have had a hell of a lot more followers. Had information been easily accessable, had books even been invented in Jesus day, perhaps he would have the same kind of media attention as Donald Trump.... however, I promise you thousands of years from now it will be "Who the hell is Donald Trump?" while people will still know the name of Jesus. Although, if I recall the invention of the printing press, argueably one of the most important inventions of all time, was in order to print Bibles so the word of Jesus would be more easily accessable.
I'm sorry, are you honestly arguing that it's better to smack your neighbor over the head with a rock in order to get some berries? Because that's nature. To kill or be killed, and ******** as much as you can before you die so you can spread your genes. Is that all you want to live for, because last I recalled you were uncomfortable with the whole ******** thing. Honestly, it's a pretty sad and boring existence, and you can keep it...I'd take my "un-natural" life any day. The Hammurabi code isn't much better, just more violent. "Honor thy father and mother", "Love thy neighbor as thyself", "Do not covet another man's things", "Do not murder", "Do not use the Lord's name in vain" Good grief, how horrible! I can see what you mean, Christianity is truly evil! You're talking about the evil being done by Christianity and in the name of it, but really that's when people use Christianity to gain their human desires, and they give in to their nature... the thing you're trying to attack Christianity for going against. You're contradicting yourself, sir. Is it good to go with nature, or bad? Christianity has done good things, however most people only tend to remember the bad. Christianity has had more influence, for the smaller religions, I'm sure the same evil can be argued on their scale, so your point is really moot due to the fact that you can't even agree with yourself and the fact that it's just not good sense. I really don't see the problem with Christ suggesting you casterize yourself, there are people that do that today as a form of body modification...so what?
I must say, I really like how you tried to turn it on me, you were the one who mentioned Americans, and I quoted you. You could have easily said "Tell that to the billions of followers of Christ world-wide who believe that the end of the world is coming." But you chose to say "the approximately 100 million Americans." So yes, why did you choose to specifically pick out Americans in your arguement? You know I'm right, you got caught and you're hoping you can use sarcasm to make me feel dumb and concede that you must be right. Well kid, I'm way too old to be falling for some 16 year old's bullshit. YOU chose to use Americans specifically in your arguement when you have Christians world-wide, in every country. My response is, so what? What does American obesity have to do with a religious arguement? Just like why did you choose only to mention Americans as the ones believing the end of the world was coming when you could have easily and honestly stated how it was a world-wide thing.
Also, I have got to say, if you're going to try to sound so smart about your knowledge of the Bible and all the research you've done, and name verses, at least try to spell the names right. Virgin Mary, King Herod. These are some of the most well known figures in the Bible and you can't even get them right. Also, using blatant sarcasm in your argument such as "*robot voice*" just makes you sound as you are, immature and ill-informed, if that's what you have to rely on. Don't apologize for the "noob writing" saying you couldn't help it, were you mature and not just trying to make me feel stupid so I'd forget that you didn't answer my question you wouldn't have done it. Please, grow up. Sarcasm in your argument is fine, I won't say I haven't done it, but it's because your argument is honestly so lacking in any merit I can't pretend I'm not just galled by your misinformation and inability to listen to others. I have not sat here and given you an argument for why Christianity is the greatest religion ever, but I have given you logical arguments for things you brought up. I have pointed out where you let your personal dislike show, and you try petty things that make no sense with the current discussion to try and cover your a**, instead of saying a real response to the question. My response has been fairly neutral, I admit flaws, while you try to grasp for straws to make your arguement seem valid, and contradict yourself in the process.
I promise you, I'm not stupid. I don't know if you believe I am, because if you do you are honestly the one person I have ever met who feels that way... and that is through no fault of my own, it's through your own ego, which I have noticed on several occasions. You are the only person who has ever treated me like I'm an inept 8 year old when in discussions with me, for no reason other than your silly pride. That is your own problem, and I hope you learn that you are not as smart and not as great as you seem to think you are, it's quite unbecoming. But I must say, I'm smart enough to know that you won't listen to anything I say, no matter if I keep arguing with you or not, or explaining things simply for you... so I'm not going to bother. I'm not trying to convert you, I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you that for the points I've responded to they are valid answers, it doesn't matter to me. People uninterested in bettering themselves or having true discussions and debates are of no interest to me. You can respond, but I'm not even going to waste any more of my time reading it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:33 pm
This has become more of a closed conversation then the open discussion that I had hoped for. Let's stop arguing over a forum and bring it to MSN^^
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:16 pm
Boo, the next time you want to argue for/against a belief system of any sort, just remember this:
Whatever you believe in is just that. A belief. It is not fact, for if there was any firm, solid evidence whatsoever with regards to any viewpoint, then there would be no need for discussion of the topic anyway.
So next time, kick back, relax, drink a can of something (everything tastes better from a can in my opinion), watch something funny, and please, please . . . put your shirt back on! wink
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:44 am
Can't we all just get along?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:14 pm
Personal faith is a wonderful thing. Religion however, can get quite messy if it gets out of hand. gonk
I have to say, it was very difficult to follow everything, seeing as though it was three or four "wall o' text" posts, but I tried, so if this sounds a bit off, just know that it wasn't because I refused to read anything.
Um, Being on the Pagan end of the spectrum, I can see a lot of valid points in both sides of the arguement, one being a bit more analytical...loaded with scraps from myths all over the world, and the other representing the emotional and humanity side of the religion.
However, it's hard to pick one, mainly because I've been on both sides. I was formerly Christian...from childhood 'till about 15. Until that time I was confident in my personal faith. I'm not exactly sure what spark threw me into such uncertainty, but something had me constantly questioning my faith in God. I was Agnostic for a while, kinda on the fence about the matter, then at 18 I re-discovered(I say "re" because I was always interested in it, but never completely followed it) Witchcraft, and I fell into my niche. I have to say I'm more spiritually connected to my higher power than ever before, and it's wonderful. I can only hope that others find their personal God and are happy with it like I am.
I never went through a phase of "fluff", which is the term for teen girls that use( or more commonly misuse) Witchcraft as nothing more than a source of rebellion or personal security, because I didn't have a reason to do so. I was looking for faith, and I found it. ^^
Anyways, I think the point of my babble is this...you can gather up all of the information of every faith, and of every legend, and they're all going to have parallels. Why? Because at one point we were nothing but small tribes of people, very similar in every aspect of our beings. We soon adapted to different environments, and branched off into different faiths and belief systems. However, the similar foundations are still there. It can't be denied.
I think the reason Christianity is targeted is because it's so widespread, and it's often the object of criticism because some Christians think it's their God-given right to convert non-believers. It sucks, because I know so many awesome people that are Christian that don't do that, and it just sullies the whole damn religion. It's always a few bad eggs that spoil the lot, y'know?
Bottom line, Believe whatever the hell you want. Share them with people willing to listen, and accept the people that believe something else, it's their friggin' right, after all. As long as no one gets hurt, I can't see why we can't just live and let live. I mean sheesh, some people are so highstrung about religion that they miss out on the joy of it. <3
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:45 am
Barton Forever. I think the reason why you find it so easy to criticize Christianity is because you are taking it all literally. I was always under the impression that over half the Bible was a metaphor. For example, I think that what they say by The 'Virgin' Mary is that she was a virgin in her heart, not sexually. Obviously it's impossible to have a baby if you're a virgin. If it could happen before, why hasn't it happened recently? Mary was a good, pure person, and that is why she was chosen to have Jesus. Not because she didn't have sex.
Also, isn't it possible that all of those people you listed off were the same person...? I'm not trying to say that Jesus lived forever and traveled all over the world because he had superpowers or access to jets, I'm just suggesting the idea. I don't know any reason why it might be plausible, but it's something to think about.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:00 am
Something caught my eye, where you said (in a reply) that horrible acts were carried out for Christianity (basically).
The same could be said for any religion. I know many Satanists, who are just like Christians, except they worship the other guy. But that doesn't mean that there aren't a few that really do take part in sacrifices and what not.
There have been cases of Atheists killing people who believe in God, simply to prove their point.
Muslems from the East have killed innocent Americans of all religions because that's what their god told them to.
But that doesn't mean that all of everyone in any given religion does horrible things.
And for the record, the horrible things you're probably refering to, were more than likely done way back when that's how everyone solved everything.
Sorry I couldn't contribute more to the discussion, but it's really too long to read this early in the morning.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reply
