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 Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:47 pm
So, do we like our heroes and villians to follow stereotypes pretty much wholeheartedly? Or do we like them to have some stereotypes, but keeping as much originality as possible (depending on race/class/ability/occupation)? OR, do we endeavour to have no stereotypes in them at all?
We've seen villains that are bad throughout but repent later or at the end, and we've seen villians that are bad through out but repent later or at the end and die. We've also seen villains that are 100% evil through and through that usually end up defeated, and we've seen villains that are 100% evil through and through that are defeated but come back at a later date (eg: Sephiroth from FFVII and the Dark Lord Sauron from The Lord of the Rings - but he only returns once whereas Sephiroth just refuses to flipping well die time after time).
With heroes, are they all righteous with magical swords? (Yes the one in mind ends up wielding a powerful sword imbued with magic, but it's not the only one, though it has the power of judgment). Are they all capable warriors with lots of friends around to support them? Are they always kind, considerate and helpful? Do you like the taciturn-type hero like Squall from FFVIII? Do you prefer a hero to be nice all the way through? Or do you prefer them to start off a bit or really self-centred and have them change gradually throughout the story?
To be honest, I've done the following:
The protagonist at first appears almost irrelevant as he's not referred to much, and he starts off being a bit withdrawn, set in his ways, self-centred and self-opinionated. However, he will change as the story progresses.
One of my villains is bad, but as has happened before he is greatly misled and realises that he's made one terrible mistake after another and had become consumed in darkness. And yes, he MIGHT just die or repent and die.
There are other heroes with tragic pasts, and one with an exceedingly dark one. The one with the very dark past is a neutral taciturn heroine. The others have a lot of bad things that have happened in their lives, one of which despises the deities and refuses to believe that they're anything besides control freaks who destroy lives and use people as pawns like on a chessboard. All of these guys will have differences applied to them as they move through the story, but not in the ways many readers will expect.
The dark, neutral, taciturn one I mentioned is one of those characters that you have little in the way of clues to. You can be unsure as to whether they're good or evil or both, and whose side they're really on. The main assumption is on the side of good, but with other intentions as well.
There are other heroes who don't know what in the world they've gotten into and take quite a bit of time working out what their role actually is.
There are also a few villains who are definitely 100% evil and are a danger to the world.
You see, I like to get a variety of different kinds in there.
I suppose Dracula could be used as one of those all time villains who has trouble coming to terms with the lonely life of a vampire. Yes, he's evil, but he's also a very lonely person. Dracula has always struck me as the type who'd be good at being a dictator. Although he is a villain, his demeanour always carried that unique sense of authority as well as a strong feeling of justice, order, and fairness. Although we wouldn't ever agree with his methods at all, and the chances of someone LIKE him ever getting into government would be exceedingly slim (besides Hitler), I think he carries that kind of air about him from what I have read. I have read Bram Stoker's novel, watched films, read books, information online and played quite a few Castlevania games. Evil does have order within it you know.
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:46 am
Oh, good post and good topic!
I like villains AND heroes who have more than one dimension. Stereotypes are fine to make use of, because it gives your reader an image or concept on which to hang their comprehension of your story. But heroes and villains both must grow, adapt, and change--for either good or ill--in order to keep the attention of the reader and continue to be interesting. I think of Lord Voldemort in HP, who started out as the faceless, scary evil--the monster under the bed, if you will, that is all the more terrifying because you don't get a clear pic of him or what his problem is. Then of all things--in probably the most brilliant stroke of the series--we meet him most personally as... a schoolboy at Hogwarts! We get a feeling for why he went so far down the dark road--and then he becomes progressively worse and ickier as the series goes on.
As for heroes with magical swords... it's been so overdone that we're due for the "Different Hero"-- the one hiding in some writer's psyche even now, who seems to fit all the traditional stereotypes--then surprises us with some strong, compelling twist. Not a true anti-hero, he or she seems to be the run-of-the-mill Good Guy--and then something is revealed, or a reaction is made to something happening, and... a rich, wonderful tale is born. *g*
I like all your descriptions of villains and heroes from your own work. They all sound unique and interesting!
In my current work, I have:
a ghost who has fallen in love with a mortal woman, and wishes to protect her from a malignant power beneath the land she has just purchased;
a vampiric ruling family led by a charismatic but quiet master warrior and diplomat who has lived since the early days of Rome, and in which we find:
the young, perfect hero (except that he's a vampire) who is the answer to prophecy--and is doing his best to do his duty, while trying to change the parameters of the prophecy...
the conflicted, brooding, seemingly sinister assassin and guardian who has had a rough life so far and is attempting to overcome his past...
the wise, dogmatic paladin sent by an opposing (and rather arrogant) foreign government to take down the "crawling evil" represented by the previous three characters--only to find out that "evil" is in the definition, not necessarily in the practice... and that the evil he has been told about doesn't match reality...
Neat discussion! Thanks for starting it!
Jasta
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Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:00 pm
I don't have heroes or villains. I write about the peole that live above and under the radar. What they do is bad regardless as to who's point of view I write from. The public would shy away from them all. I don't think bad guys think what they are doing is bad. There are no more bad guys then there are bad Nazis. If they think they are just then they to the only peole that matter, themselves. Now do I think people disagree, and that there are opposing teams yes, but when you work with assassins, murderers, and serial killers nobody is going to be the picture perfect good guy.
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Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:16 pm
Hmm, well...though I don't write (aint got the imagination to do that) I have seen how so many characters have been put acorss.
I like ones that are neither good or bad, but near the end their true intentions come out and you know forsure what they are.
In most books it's black or white, and to be honest, you make up your own mind nayway so it doesn't really matter. Someone who is a hero could be a vilian in your own eyes because what they are doing could be wrong and the same but the other way around. You never know. I have seen a lot of films that do that and it really grips you to find out what is actually going on and it makes you think on what you already know.
To me no-one is a hero of vilian, it's upto you to decide.
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Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:03 pm
So the man/woman who saves the world can be construed as a villain, and the man/woman who seeks to destroy it can be construed as a hero/heroine?
Sorry, but that doesn't fit the bill in this case. You won't get on very well with my book if you decide not to call some villains and some heroes/heroines.
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Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:54 pm
I find it interesting when an author shows a particular character to be a hero when it seemed at first they were a villain (according to perception...) and vice-versa. But I do think someone has to be the antagonist, if not the hero or villain... without some shadow light doesn't seem as precious. smile
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Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:22 am
Yeah, I agree with that wholeheartedly Jasta.
I just don't agree with Mandy when she says that nobody is a hero or a villain.
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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:22 am
*nods* I'm right there with you. Sorry, Mandy!
Now mind you... I say that with a clear understanding that even bad guys have motivations--and unless they're gleefully evil, those motivations are just as valid for them as the hero's is for him- or herself. Case in point: Marvel Comics just published a really NICE one-shot in the Mighty Thor universe, entitled simply "Loki". It's full-colour and glossy pages throughout; it postulates that somehow (we never see that action) Loki has finally accomplished his great goal: he has captured Asgard. Odin, Balder and Sif are in prison, and Thor is in chains; Loki doesn't get to gloat very long before all the chickens come home to roost, as it were. Excellent book.
I don't much care for the art--I like my gods and goddesses beautiful as well as strong, thanks...--but the story is powerful. It attempts to see years of "situational stuff" in Asgard, from Loki's childhood all the way through, from Loki's unique viewpoint--and it succeeds well in explaining some of his more bitter actions. It's not canonical (my little brother Mika, who is a HUGE Norse fanatic in terms of history, myth, etc.--and yes, he's here on Gaia somewhere... had a bright green cow over some of the alterations they made to fit the comics universe) and some might not like it for that reason, but within its own "alternate universe canon" it really is well done.
It was a very interesting exercise in seeing things from a "bad guy" POV, how the customary heroes might look to the person they despise and casually mis-treat. Mandy, you might find it interesting too! I take your point about motivations, but at the end of the day I think there really does need to be a villain--and everyone needs heroes.
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Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:30 am
The "hero" of the book I'm writing now is somone who for most of his life has been an unnoticed kid always made his own decisions and followed his own path. Until he was converted into a vampire. Now he is struggling to figure out why this happened and what is going to happen to the rest of his life. So he's not a perfect hero by any means he's quite selfish in the beggining and he can't control his thirst for blood. Thus he ends up killing several humans until he is taught otherwise. So with this character you could veiw them through the light of a villian in the beggining.
Defining villians is something I havn't thought much about yet. I know I need some vampire villians and I know I need some other villians though I'm not sure of what their roles will be confused
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:16 pm
I don't think I would call your character a villain. I'd call him the anti-hero.
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:03 pm
*nods* I'd agree with that.
Drizzt, it sounds very interesting--conflicted heroes are a favourite of mine. smile And remember... there will always be some people somewhere in your story who think of the hero as a villain--and others who see him as a hero. Every story has two sides. In one of my favourite series--Katherine Kurtz's Deryni books--the Good Guys are the ruling family of the main kingdom and their friends, while their enemies are the "Bad Guys." But lately some fans have taken to writing stories from the perspective of the so-called Bad Guys--and from that POV, the Bad Guys are the Good Guys. And vice-versa! smile It's actually kinda neat to read things from the other side...
Hmm. This gives me an idea for another contest after the stereotypes one wraps up... *grins*
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Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:58 pm
Well of course. After all it would be rather difficult to convince everyone that a vampire is actually a hero.
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Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:26 am
drizzt-catstyle Well of course. After all it would be rather difficult to convince everyone that a vampire is actually a hero. Very true, sometimes they get stuck with the hero-esque person with ulterior motives.
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Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:54 pm
A story I did the preliminary notes for just a few weeks ago is about a man (Marcus) who has a one night stand with a woman, falls in love, and then finds that shes the daughter of a major assassin. The entire book's about his killing people to win her father affection. Like the tradition of buying a woman from her parents only much more bloody.
Most humanitarians will say that he's an evil man who killed people and should lose because that's what happens in books right. The bad guy looses. I personaly think he's a hero. Shure he made some really bad choices, but in the end he was more dedicated to his love than most men will ever be.
It's all about doing what you can with what you have. Do I thin the Viking warlords were evil because they came and stole from Europeans, killing those that fought back and taking what they wanted. Most people would, but I think of those men who took wealth and power back to their families. Those people who boldly ventured into an unknown world for the betterment of their people. I think they're heroes.
You rarely see someone who wants to destroy the world. Most people are realistic and seek to better themselves even if at the expense of others, but they rarely have it in for the planet itself. There are some people like Hitler who were after a race of people, but for the most part people take what they need.
Consider this scenario:
Two men have settled and started homesteads in the woods. They have families with wives and daughters. There is a single well that they must share. There is enough water for them both if they ration it. What if one man's child gets sick and needs more water. Sure he'll ask but the other man will say no. What does he do. Sit and watch his daughter fade away because he's a "good guy"? I think he'll load the shotgun and go for a walk. His hands will be red, but that well will be theirs. What is he? A good guy because he saved his family, or a bad guy because he killed a man who did nothing wrong.
There are no bad guys. We all want something diffrent, and the strongest get what they want. It sounds barbaric because it is. We're human barbaric is what we do best. It is however, a great canvas on which to study humans. When they are thrust into a world where the lines between good and bad aren't just blurry, they're non-exsistant.
Storyline:
Skinner Magnus became an assassin after his father removed the skin rom his face in a fit of rage. Now he kills and skins people for money. It's not always that simple, he represents the Brotherhood so a lot of his job is dealing with their enemies, but for the most part he kills people for the gain of himself and his loved ones.
My work revolves around those people who most consider evil. The guys that do things most of us would never do.
The quote that I sign at the bottom of all my papers: "The Romans considered killing and dying well an artform. These are the stories of it's most prolific performers."
It's all about doing what you must, some even like it. Some people love the feeling of warmth that leaves a body. Others crave the copper laced smell of blood. That tangy taste that accompanies it. Some are screwed up, but some are rather nice guys. Knowing how to twist a blade to end a life doesnt make you a savage, it's just another skill. Some think of themselves as soldiers, some as rebels. They know what they are, and that they are the simplest form of savagery, but there is an elegance in the world that I have come to love. There are no bad guys. It all boils down to honor. A man has a family, friends, and a circle that is in a siince his kingdom. His kingdom comes before anybody elses. The safety and happiness of his people is all that matters. Good and Bad need not apply. I respect a job well done. be it a properly planted crop, or a perfectly planned assasination. Everything to benefit your self and your people.
Lord I talk a lot. There are no heroes who save the world for the benefit of nobody. There are no good people who strive to help others at their own expinse. They help because it make them happy. There are no selfless acts.
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:36 am
This is certainly a forum with food for thought ...
I consider parts of my story to be not-so-conventional. Yes, there are villains, protagonists, misled in-betweeners, and the like. But really, who is who?
I have a villain who may be pure evil or may just have a shell of darkness concealing an ever-fading light.
I have a protagonist who could be exactly the opposite, though he has moments of true goodness that make him light.
I have a second villain who is truly pure evil, but the past is so shadowed that no one knows why - not even himself.
This is the one theme I find recurring in my novels - Why? To quote one of my favorite plays, "Are people born Wicked? Or do they have Wickedness thrust upon them?" It's always the question I ask when reading/writing.
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