Welcome to Gaia! ::

Reply Pro-Choice Gaians
"Why I Hate Children!" Goto Page: 1 2 3 [>] [»|]

Quick Reply

Enter both words below, separated by a space:

Can't read the text? Click here

Submit

Katya_Stevens

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:56 am


Article here

I have to admit, reading the "10 reasons why you should have children" just made me laugh...and then ridicule almost every single one of them. The ten reasons to and not to have children are quoted at the bottom, after the article: they're images on the site and I needed to type them out.

Daily Mail
Angels or savages - who would have children?

A new book is causing a storm of controversy by labelling children as annoying and pointless - a charge made all the more inflammatory by the fact that its author is a mother. Entitled No Kid: 40 Reasons Not To Have Children, Corinne Maier's book has sparked fury in France, where it was published.

Here, Corinne argues her "no kid" case while another mum, Ursula Hirschkorn, stands firm for parenthood.

Corinne Maier says children bring only pain, misery and expense

Corinne Maier, 43, a writer, who lives with her boyfriend Yves, 45, a psychiatrist, daughter Laure, 13, and son Cyrille, 10, in Brussels, argues her case.

Children are just too much work. They just aren't worth the hassle. Parents today are put under so much pressure to bring up perfect children, but what's the point?

They are just walking problems to which you constantly have to find solutions.

The world is in the grip of baby mania, with celebrities flaunting their pregnant bellies in magazines, live births on TV and everyone demanding the right to have a baby at any cost.

To be a la mode, the must-have accessory is a baby.

If you can't make your own, then a whole business has sprung up to service your needs and now as long as you've got the cash, you can buy IVF, eggs, sperm or even children.

Anyone who dares to be different and suggest that being child-free is the better option is vilified as immature or selfish.

It's a brave woman who will stand up for her right not to have children.

Let's start at the beginning with my first reason for being anti-children: labour is torture.

Even with anaesthetic it's the worst pain you'll ever feel. Anyone who tells you it will be a beautiful experience is lying. It's more like that scene from the film Alien, where the monster bursts from an astronaut's stomach.

Then there's breastfeeding. Everyone tells you breast is best, but no one tells you it hurts like hell. If you opt out and bottle-feed you're made to feel guilty for "going against nature".

Get over these early hurdles and you hit the big one: how to keep your child amused and happy.

This will fast become one of your most hated jobs. The moment you give birth you can forget leisurely lie-ins, last-minute trips or a spontaneous roll in the hay with your partner.

Instead, your weekends revolve around being woken at the crack of dawn to traipse around the zoo or watch minimum wage actors cavort in cartoon costumes at Disneyland; sitting through stupid kids' films and eating in "child friendly" restaurants. In my opinion this alone is reason enough not to have a child.

But perhaps the weekends aren't so bad when you look at the monotony that is the life of a working mother.

Your career is on hold in a dull job, because it's the only way you can get out of work on time to pick up your children from school or take a day off when they get sick.

I stayed for years in a job that bored me - as an economist - just so I could get out early to pick my children up.

I worked all day, and then came home to shopping, cooking, cleaning and hours of homework, and all so my kids could treat me like a maid. It was so boring.

Being a working mum is like being in prison, but there's no time off for good behaviour and no electronic tags you can wear for a brief trip back to the freedom you've given up for your offspring.

I found the hardest thing to give up when I had my children was my personal freedom.

There is no time left to be you any more. If I hadn't had them, I would have spent my money travelling the world. I could enjoy my money, rather than being stuck at home waking them up every day in time for school.

Once you have children, there is no space for spontaneity any more. We tried to go to an art exhibition last weekend which we'd been looking forward to for ages, but we had to take the kids along and they hate art.

They whined so much that we gave up and left without seeing anything.

If you thought your friends would help you get through parenthood, then you've got another thing coming. When your friends have children, conversation shrinks to how "Oscar's using the potty now" or "Alice slept the whole night".

Nothing is more mind-numbingly boring than "mummy talk".

Make no mistake, bringing up children is war, and you're on the losing side.

Every time you plan a little escape they will undermine you. Just as you are off to bed with your partner, they'll throw up; the one night you book a babysitter they'll come down with a fever; on your birthday they'll throw a tantrum as you're stepping out of the door - you just can't win.

Perhaps this is why children are such effective passion killers. Take my advice, if you want to stay together, avoid baby-making.

What hope is there of a fulfilling sex life when a woman is forced to turn into a fat, deformed animal decked out in sack-like dresses?

Far from the beautiful images on the front of magazines, the ugly reality usually means a long cold spell between the sheets.

Even once the baby is born, nights punctuated by feeds and a crying baby leave you so exhausted that any thawing in that department is a long way off.

As you bid adieu to your sex life, your relationship is quick to follow. You go from being a couple to being Mummy and Daddy.

Your job as a parent comes first, and the romance in your lives is replaced by DIY and dusting.

Now, my boyfriend Yves and I are parents first and a couple second. Our relationship hasn't been the same since we had children and I miss the romance.

Of course, millions of parents will read this and get all defensive and think that it's all worth it because those angels of theirs are sweethearts. But they're not: they're little savages.

Just think back to your own childhood - the playground was a bear pit where children were bullied and toys stolen.

Things haven't changed and little children are just as unpleasant and annoying as they ever were, except that as a parent you're not even allowed to fight back now.

I was in the library with my son when he was younger and he was playing up. He was getting on my nerves and annoying everyone, so I gave him a slap to make him behave, but then everyone looked at me as if I were a bad mother.

Modern parents' hands are tied. While there is pressure to produce perfect children, you no longer have any power to say no to them, so you're more likely to produce perfect brats.

Sometimes a slap is the only way to explain something to a child.

If you've disagreed with me up to this point and you still think you can cope with the emotional cost of a child, then perhaps you should consider the financial one.

Kids cost a fortune. First the family car and the house, then there's basics like food and clothes, and that's before they start pestering you for the latest toy.

A lot of people decide to have children to build a family around themselves, as a refuge from the world so they won't be lonely and will be loved for who they are.

Certainly, I often wonder why I had children. I think it was because I am an only child I thought I would be less alone if I had a family. Now I've learned that being in a family can bring a new kind of loneliness.

People often ask me what my children think of the book, but they don't give a damn.

They live in their own world and I live in mine. I would never give my daughter advice on whether she should have children. I don't care if I have grandchildren or not, but I know that if I do, I don't want to look after them too often.

The idea of a cosy picture postcard family is fantasy and the whole "loving family gathered around the Christmas tree" image is a lie.

More murders and child abuse happen within families than outside them - every family is a nest of vipers: all the more reason not to add to your own.

Even if you are savvy enough to realise that having children won't add up to having the perfect family, another parent trap is believing that it's OK to put off your dreams in the hope that your kids will fulfil them.

But if you have no children you are free to make your own dreams come true now, surely a more attractive option.

If you can't bring yourself to give up on the idea of children as your future, what future do you see for them?

Financial and job security are things of the past, housing is beyond expensive, the planet is suffering from over-population - do you still think it's such a good idea to bring yet another baby into this world?

They could end up being your problem for the rest of your life. What a prospect.

Instead of pitying the child-free, we should be envying them, I know I do. Because as a mother-of-two I know better than most why having children is a big mistake.



Ursula Hirschkorn, 35, lives with her husband Mike and their two sons, Jacob, three and Max, one. She says:

So Corinne Maier thinks motherhood gets too much good press - but I beg to differ.

I think most mums are only too happy to regale their scared single friends with tales of stretch marks, sleepless nights and sex-free relationships, if only to elicit a bit of sympathy.

I think most women go out of their way not to drone on and on about their children, especially when they're with friends who don't have a family.

To be honest, though, in the face of this vitriolic attack on the lifestyle I've chosen, I say to hell with other people's feelings.

I think the real secret of motherhood is that for all our griping about loss of personal freedom, dead-end careers and endless rounds of nappy-changing, being a mother is the best and most important job in the world.

As soon as you get pregnant, you finally realise the point of all those years of dealing with budding boobs and annoying periods.

As you body swells up with potential, you finally have a legitimate reason to spend hours drooling over baby clothes and the latest prams.

And you start to get what this baby-making business is all about.

Now I know that not all pregnancies are as rosy as mine, which were a round of cat naps and guilt-free chocolate scoffing, but the end result makes it all worthwhile even if you've spent nine months fighting morning sickness.

The moment you look your baby in the eye, you know a love like no other you will ever feel. Your feelings for your newborn baby are the very definition of unconditional love.

They are the cutest thing you've ever seen, even as newborns when they are slicked in blood and look like Winston Churchill (all new babies do).

Now I won't lie - yes, the early months are hard, but then doesn't anything worth having take a bit of hard work and self-sacrifice?

One of my most cherished memories is of a night feed with my son Jacob when he was all of two months old. I plucked him screaming and red-faced from his cot, and started to feed him his milk.

After a few moments, he pulled away from his bottle, looked up at me and gave me his first, beautifully gummy smile.

I've never felt being up at 2am was so worthwhile - even when I was dancing away at some nightclub in my youth.

I remember reading when I was pregnant that once you have a child you will never be bored again.

I was sceptical to say the least. In my experience, babies were grand masters at doing nothing, in between bouts of banshee screaming, but that was before I had my own to play with.

Even watching Jacob sleep held its own fascination, and when he started to do really interesting things such as eat solids, roll, crawl, walk, talk and boss me about, well that was when things really got fun.

My husband would come home from work and our entire dinner conversation would be about the milestones Jacob had reached, no matter how infinitesimal.

Parents know their world shrinks when children come along. They are painfully aware they are missing out on films and plays and boozy nights out.

But isn't that what your 20s are for? Do you really want to go on living the same way until you're 50?

The truth is that becoming a parent makes you less selfish - it forces you to devote yourself to another being more than to yourself.

It allows you to experience the joys and challenges of that little person's life as they live it.

And it lets you reconnect with your own childhood by reliving the excitement of discovering the world all over again.

The first time my son Jacob kissed me and told me he loved me, it beat all my previous romantic trysts into a cocked hat.

When I was a new mum to Jacob, I remember saying to my husband that if I were to die then that it wouldn't matter so much because I had done the best thing I ever could in having my son.

These are the moments that I will remember and savour when I am old: watching the boys put on a show, complete with my posh make-up smeared all over their faces, beaming as we clap their tiny achievements; my three-year-old boy genius asking me if we could come to a "compromise" about his excessive lolly consumption; my beautiful little baby boy pointing out the "tittomotamus" (read hippopotamus) at Disneyworld.

I certainly won't be thinking about how well a particular business meeting went or how many times I went to the cinema.

And that to me is the best argument for motherhood there could be.



Ten reasons not to have children
1. Yes, we all know giving birth is a nightmare, but no one ever warns you that breast-feeding is agony.

2. You never get to lie in again because you have to get up at 7AM every day to get your children off to school. And even the weekends are ruined because life loses all its spontaneity when you have to book a babysitter before you can do anything.

3. Children cost a fortune. Have you seen how much a pram costs, let alone nappies, bottles and clothes?

4. you have to spend your weekends in plastic theme parks or gawping at bored animals in a zoo.

5. you can never go to a grown-up restaurant. Instead you have to eat in wipe-clean, fast food joints.

6. Looking after toddlers is boring and unrewarding.

7. You spend your life cleaning up after your children and helping them with their schoolwork. And all you get in return is being treated like a maid by your family.

8. Your career is put on hold as you choose jobs based on whether you can fit them around your family or not.

9. Babies break up close couples and kill off your sex life.

10. There are already too many children in the world, so why add to the problem?



Ten reasons to have children
1. Having a baby introduces you to the joys of elasticated waists and big pants.

2. Mums who have a girl can indulge their inner princess and dress her up in fairy wings and tutus.

3. when you have a baby, you fall in love all over again, without being unfaithful or needing to shave your legs.

4. No matter how rough you look, your children always think you're beautiful (at least until they're teenagers).

5. Toy shops are no longer off-limits, but stopping your husband from buying Scalextric for your week-old baby can still pose a problem.

6. You can admit the perfect date is on your sofa with tub of ice cream, now that the cost of babysitting has put paid to a wild social life.

7. Pregnancy is a guilt-free excuse to gorge on chocolate.

8. Cooking for children reacquaints you with fish fingers/fish sticks and peas, which just never make it on to the table at grown-up dinner parties.

9. Even if they put a stop to a wild sex life, you will never be short of a kiss or cuddle with children around.

10. You have the chance to put right everything your parents did wrong -- and in the process give your children plenty of fodder to work on with their own offspring.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:29 am


So? The first list is by a woman who hates kids and the second is by a woman who loves them. That's all I see.

Lupine Pyrefly


Katsuya Ishtar

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:46 am


The person who is for having kids: I do not see the point in having them still. The reasons to have kids list is utter BS and sounds desperate. I hate elastic waistbands in my day clothes; I can go to a toy store anytime I want, I need no children for an excuse to go into one; you want fishsticks and peas? you're free to make them, no one's stopping you; there some women out there you cannot gorge on chocolate even when pregnant; a kiss or a hug from a child is not the same as good sex with your significant other.

I hate babies and prefer the company of dogs over children (when has a dog ever talked back to anyone?).

But Lupine is right, that's all the article is: a list by a woman who hates kids and a list by a woman who loves them.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:21 am


I call BS on both lists.

They're both worth basically nothing as they're biased all to heck and gone. Now, I do work at a childcare, and what that's told me is that whether having kids or not, or even just working with them, whether you like it, it's due to your personality.

I love kids. I want them someday. For me, a smile at work makes my whole job worthwhile.

Someone else may not want kids, because all the hard work (and it is hard work) isn't worth the (pretty scant in some ways) reward.

But isn't that what pro-choice is about? Choosing whether or not you want to be a mother?

RoseRose


zawazawaii

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:06 am


that that dont kill me....can only make me stronger.


I like how having kids is SO terrible, but she had two. Just like how Childbirth is REALLY BAD, but again, she had two.


If I'm going to be persuaded not to have kids, I'd like it to be by someone who isn't a hypocrite.

And as for the reasons to have children.......

.......Are those, like, trying to be funny? I really don't think I could take that seriously. Ever.


i need you to hurry up now. cause i can't wait much longer.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:37 am


Sometimes I really wish that the child-free and pro-choice movements were not so closely related. I sometimes get the sense that I am looked down upon or perceived as "not pro-choice enough" because I am not part of the child-free movement, I love children, and plan on having them.
I don't think whether or not having children is a good thing has anything to do with our pro-choice arguments.

Aiko_Kaida


Fran Salaska

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:48 am


Aiko_Kaida
Sometimes I really wish that the child-free and pro-choice movements were not so closely related. I sometimes get the sense that I am looked down upon or perceived as "not pro-choice enough" because I am not part of the child-free movement, I love children, and plan on having them.
I don't think whether or not having children is a good thing has anything to do with our pro-choice arguments.


I kind of have the same feeling. There was a discussion on the debate in LJ a while back about whether being pro-life personally but still pro-choice damages the movement, and quite a lot of people thought it did. That made me feel bad, because it makes it seem less about reproductive choice and more about abortion.

As for the lists... the reasons not to are better than the reasons to. But I wouldn't call the woman who didn't want children a hypocrite - you can't truly know how something is until you've experienced it. I'd say she's more qualified to comment than someone who doesn't have kids.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:09 am


First, I have to firmly agree with the first woman when she says that her having kids was a mistake. If she hates being a mother so much, it was clearly a mistake for her to become one. I'm not saying she should have known this beforehand and I'm not saying parenthood is evil because she says it, but I think it's fairly clear that motherhood was not the right life for this woman. It is possible that she wouldn't have been any happier as a child-free woman (because some people like to complain about and hate their lives no matter what is going on, and she might be one of those people) but if she didn't have kids, at least she couldn't hurt them by writing books about how they ruined her life. I can't imagine being a child whose mother declared I ruined her life. That would be so hard.

Second

Aiko_Kaida
Sometimes I really wish that the child-free and pro-choice movements were not so closely related. I sometimes get the sense that I am looked down upon or perceived as "not pro-choice enough" because I am not part of the child-free movement, I love children, and plan on having them.
I don't think whether or not having children is a good thing has anything to do with our pro-choice arguments.

I'm so sorry this is how it is where you are! It must be hard to be judged negatively for your life choices. The nice part is that not all people in all areas hold this opinion. Where I am, people like that I'm the Pro-Choice virgin who wants kids. It helps dispel the belief that people who are Pro-Choicers just want to be able to sleep around but never have kids. If someone stands up and says something like, "You all are just Pro-Choice because you hate kids but don't want to pay the price for sleeping around," I can just stand up, too, and say, "You're wrong. I've never slept with anyone and I love kids. Yet am I am Pro-Choice."

ShadowIce


RoseRose

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:17 am


Aiko_Kaida
Sometimes I really wish that the child-free and pro-choice movements were not so closely related. I sometimes get the sense that I am looked down upon or perceived as "not pro-choice enough" because I am not part of the child-free movement, I love children, and plan on having them.
I don't think whether or not having children is a good thing has anything to do with our pro-choice arguments.


I hope I never get that impression from anyone, because I want children someday (two biological, and however many we have time and money for foster-adopts.) Yet, I am pro-choice, on EVERYTHING.

The other issue I get this feeling for, both on this topic and gay marriage, is that because I have a religion, I'm stupid or ignorant or a slave to superstition (all said about ALL religious people at various times on Gaia, and often referring back to the aforementioned debates.) I'm Jewish, pro-choice, and pro-gay marriage. I'm an extreme social libertarian, actually. Not so much economically, but socially, yeah.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:47 pm


RoseRose
Aiko_Kaida
Sometimes I really wish that the child-free and pro-choice movements were not so closely related. I sometimes get the sense that I am looked down upon or perceived as "not pro-choice enough" because I am not part of the child-free movement, I love children, and plan on having them.
I don't think whether or not having children is a good thing has anything to do with our pro-choice arguments.


I hope I never get that impression from anyone, because I want children someday (two biological, and however many we have time and money for foster-adopts.) Yet, I am pro-choice, on EVERYTHING.

The other issue I get this feeling for, both on this topic and gay marriage, is that because I have a religion, I'm stupid or ignorant or a slave to superstition (all said about ALL religious people at various times on Gaia, and often referring back to the aforementioned debates.) I'm Jewish, pro-choice, and pro-gay marriage. I'm an extreme social libertarian, actually. Not so much economically, but socially, yeah.


I'm going to have to echo this.

I'm religious and I am pro-choice and pro gay-marriage. I believe that science should be taught in our classrooms, I am against legislating our morals and forcing beliefs on other people.

If someone doesn't want children, fine-- that is their decision and one I respect. Same with anybody's personal views on religion, lifestyle, etc. We are all allowed to make our own choices and I do not judge or lecture others on theirs and try to impose my morals. In turn though I expect that same courtesy and compassion.

At the risk of sounding like a b***h, but I just have to say it because it's something I have thought about a lot and something that does upset me is that what we need is to stand strong and if we're going to preach that we need to respect others beliefs even if they're different (meaning Pro-Lifers respect women's beliefs who would abort), than among ourselves we need to do so all the time to set the example. How can we ask others to do it if our own side becomes fractured? How can we demand that people who'd never abort respect our side that does abort when we in turn cannot at least respect the personal decision of a woman NOT to abort?

Pro-Choice does not mean pro-Child free, or Pro-Abortion. It's harmful to the movement to imply so, and hurtful and ostracizing to women who would otherwise embrace the idea of choice if they themselves weren't being told by, or having it at least implied by, "pro-choicers" that they're wrong to choose motherhood. We need more Pro-Choice mothers, we need to make women who may not choose the same path as someone who aborts to feel welcome and as much a part of the movement and the idea as someone who would abort.

Lady Adriata

Friendly Entrepreneur

7,800 Points
  • Tycoon 200
  • Profitable 100
  • The Perfect Setup 150

Miraculous Jorbee

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:55 pm


Anyone who has been looked down on for wanting kids, the choicers you met are not real choicers if they can't respect you or regard you as less.

Here we are bitching about bias, but this is a topic we can't really do anything about. The first one is a woman who experienced kids, and produced her opinion. She is at no fault and should not be disregarded, nor should the second woman who did the same.

I wanted kids all my life until one day I read up on it, and I can't say I've been the same since. What's the point? A boy today said they'd be the light of my life as I got older. Why? If I get lonely, I'll get a cat, and my friends can bunk with me for awhile. A lot of them don't have many life plans, and if I'm so dreadfully lonely they can stay with me if need be.

Kids make me remember how I was as a child, I want nothing of a child like that. I can't imagine anything worse than how I was as a kid, I screamed, I cried, I was taught christianity and at 7 years old I opressed my best friends with it. I cried, I whined, I got new toys every week. My mom sacrificed everything for me and that's how I repaid her. Screw how the mother might be happy, sometimes I wish I wasn't born just so I'd never have paid her back for keeping me like that.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:57 pm


RoseRose
I call BS on both lists.

They're both worth basically nothing as they're biased all to heck and gone. Now, I do work at a childcare, and what that's told me is that whether having kids or not, or even just working with them, whether you like it, it's due to your personality.

I love kids. I want them someday. For me, a smile at work makes my whole job worthwhile.

Someone else may not want kids, because all the hard work (and it is hard work) isn't worth the (pretty scant in some ways) reward.

But isn't that what pro-choice is about? Choosing whether or not you want to be a mother?


QFT.

I often waver between wanting to have children and not wanting to have children. I have had my arm snapped in half and it hurt like hell. Believe me, the idea of my v****a exploding sounds horrific, but the idea of having children with the one I love most, and to be able to guide that person into an adult is something that we both (my husband and I) look forward to in the future.

But what the ******** is up with saying that you have to treat children "in a certain way"? I think I'll probably swear around my children, but it's been ******** proven that the more you talk normally around children, the more mature they get because rather than go "tee hee, s**t is a naughty word!" they realize how stupid the whole thing is in the first place.

And as for going to boring children shows and crap, who says that you can't do a bunch of fun stuff? When I was very young, my parents took us to the major national parks and we went on tons of hikes, went swimming all over the lake, and had marshmallows and hot dog roasts. And my siblings and I were actually quite well behaved. We were able to bring things we wanted to play with and were given a designated "play tarp" area. We were exhausted from hiking and running around and getting our energy out, so we were too tired to whine about a bunch of stuff.

And who says that you have to be the tireless entertainer for your kids? I spent most of my childhood TRYING TO GET MY PARENTS TO LEAVE ME ALONE. I just wanted to play My Little Ponies with my sister. WAS THAT SO DIFFICULT?! Of course, there's time to have fun with family board games and nightly dinners and the like, but really, the way that the "hate kids" lady acts like is that first of all the male in the relationship is largely absent and stupid. And secondly that the kids are going to be idiotic brats forever.

The thing is, that you need to know what kind of a kid you have, just like any other being that you live with (cats, dogs, boyfriends, etc). Once you realize what his or her temperament is, you can figure out a solution, be it lots of active sports and outside activity, or lots of curling up with library books.

And really, if you're ambivalent towards having kids, it's not like they're going to be blithely ignorant about it. If you don't want kids, then DON'T HAVE THEM, "society" be damned!

Everyone told me that when I got married that our relation ship would "change" and that sex would stop and that he'd turn into a different person. Well, so far, that HAS NOT HAPPENED.

Most of this "universal truth" BS is just that, bullshit. It's a bunch of unhappy people puking and mewling about how the grass is greener and if only. But that just means that they're miserable, and they're trying to get you to listen to them so you'll be miserable too by betraying your own personal desires and goals.

So yeah. Have kids, or don't have kids, but don't tell me that you were FORCED either way.

Freedom of choice for women= <3

Oni no Tenshi

7,200 Points
  • Dressed Up 200
  • Forum Explorer 100
  • Peoplewatcher 100

MipsyKitten
Crew

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:31 pm


Aiko_Kaida
Sometimes I really wish that the child-free and pro-choice movements were not so closely related. I sometimes get the sense that I am looked down upon or perceived as "not pro-choice enough" because I am not part of the child-free movement, I love children, and plan on having them.
I don't think whether or not having children is a good thing has anything to do with our pro-choice arguments.
I'm going to have to call bullshit on this, and everyone who's said the Childfree movement's goal is to look down on mothers. You've gotten the feeling that you've been looked down upon because you want kids? Has anyone actually said you don't know what you want, that you'll change your mind, or that you're not capable of making a choice on your own? Has anyone actually said that to you? To your face or in writing?

I've had people online, and off telling me I can't make the decision to not have kids, because I'm only 20 years old. I've had family members tell me to 'grow up' when I say I don't want kids, be the reason due to my physical, or mental well being.

Now, I've seen the softer, and the more extreme sides of the Childfree movement. I've read too many instances where a woman was turned down for a tubal, because she was too young. Where women have been ridiculed by their families for not producing grandchildren, and situations where women have been left by their husbands/boyfriends, because they decided they wanted kids after X amount of years of being together. I have never, ever heard anyone say that the only real Pro-Choicers are Childfree.

Since when is making everyone Childfree Pro-Choice? When was that ever said, or implied? No one's saying you can't be a mother. No one's looking down on you for wanting kids. I'm am seriously pissed off that people here can even imply that people here push for abortion. We push for the CHOICE to have an abortion. I can not tell you the rage I'm feeling right now, because people want to come here and harp on about us not supporting women becoming mothers. I'm guessing none of you remember the instances involving two pro-choicers, one who aborted, and one who didn't? Some people still have the images in their signatures in support.

We need more Pro-Choice mothers? No we ******** don't. We need more women who made a choice, regardless of the outcome. Not a damn person here has implied that Pro-Choice is the same as Pro-abortion. Obviously the people saying this haven't had the brunt of people actually telling you that. People actually calling you 'baby killers' for wanting choice. You want to know how I, and servaral other people see it? When there are topics about being Childfree, and the hurdles that are put in front of you because of it, there are servaral people who like to turn the subject around to include mothers. There haven't been many Childfree subjects where someone hasn't come in to hijack the conversation, or come in with "well I can't imagine not being a mother/not having kids. I love the smell, and the feeling and it's so great!"

Stop. It. Now.

People set up conversations looking for views, yet when the person who doesn't want to be a mother comes in with her views, she's bombarded by mothers, and potential mothers showing their views in her face. Someone has a personal view, and people find it necessary to take it personally, and throw a fit. Take this thread as an example. The people who want to be mothers take offense to someone's view. Someone's personal view that they have lived through.

If you want to be a mother, fine, but don't act like the Pro-Choice movement is anti-mother. That's complete and utter bullshit. The same people fighting for choice, and fighting for better rights for mothers, children and families.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:11 pm


MipsyKitten
Aiko_Kaida
Sometimes I really wish that the child-free and pro-choice movements were not so closely related. I sometimes get the sense that I am looked down upon or perceived as "not pro-choice enough" because I am not part of the child-free movement, I love children, and plan on having them.
I don't think whether or not having children is a good thing has anything to do with our pro-choice arguments.
I'm going to have to call bullshit on this, and everyone who's said the Childfree movement's goal is to look down on mothers. You've gotten the feeling that you've been looked down upon because you want kids? Has anyone actually said you don't know what you want, that you'll change your mind, or that you're not capable of making a choice on your own? Has anyone actually said that to you? To your face or in writing?


They've said it to my face on my college campus, at least that I'll change my mind. Once people found out I was working in childcare, they told me I'd change my mind about having children... some of them as a joke, but others were dead serious.

Quote:
I've had people online, and off telling me I can't make the decision to not have kids, because I'm only 20 years old. I've had family members tell me to 'grow up' when I say I don't want kids, be the reason due to my physical, or mental well being.


And that's wrong. BUT, just because people have said things to you that are wrong, doesn't mean that people who agree with you about one thing wouldn't say things that are wrong to people who disagree on that issue.

Quote:
Now, I've seen the softer, and the more extreme sides of the Childfree movement. I've read too many instances where a woman was turned down for a tubal, because she was too young. Where women have been ridiculed by their families for not producing grandchildren, and situations where women have been left by their husbands/boyfriends, because they decided they wanted kids after X amount of years of being together. I have never, ever heard anyone say that the only real Pro-Choicers are Childfree.

Since when is making everyone Childfree Pro-Choice? When was that ever said, or implied? No one's saying you can't be a mother. No one's looking down on you for wanting kids. I'm am seriously pissed off that people here can even imply that people here push for abortion. We push for the CHOICE to have an abortion. I can not tell you the rage I'm feeling right now, because people want to come here and harp on about us not supporting women becoming mothers. I'm guessing none of you remember the instances involving two pro-choicers, one who aborted, and one who didn't? Some people still have the images in their signatures in support.

We need more Pro-Choice mothers? No we ******** don't. We need more women who made a choice, regardless of the outcome. Not a damn person here has implied that Pro-Choice is the same as Pro-abortion. Obviously the people saying this haven't had the brunt of people actually telling you that. People actually calling you 'baby killers' for wanting choice. You want to know how I, and servaral other people see it? When there are topics about being Childfree, and the hurdles that are put in front of you because of it, there are servaral people who like to turn the subject around to include mothers. There haven't been many Childfree subjects where someone hasn't come in to hijack the conversation, or come in with "well I can't imagine not being a mother/not having kids. I love the smell, and the feeling and it's so great!"

Stop. It. Now.

People set up conversations looking for views, yet when the person who doesn't want to be a mother comes in with her views, she's bombarded by mothers, and potential mothers showing their views in her face. Someone has a personal view, and people find it necessary to take it personally, and throw a fit. Take this thread as an example. The people who want to be mothers take offense to someone's view. Someone's personal view that they have lived through.

If you want to be a mother, fine, but don't act like the Pro-Choice movement is anti-mother. That's complete and utter bullshit. The same people fighting for choice, and fighting for better rights for mothers, children and families.


And Mipsy, I've SEEN people in the ADT basically say, "EW! Babies!" Not in those words, but there have been times when I've felt on the outside of the movement here on Gaia because I want children. I'm not going to name names of people who made me feel this way, because I do think it was unintentional... but it DOES happen. Some CFers get VERY defensive, and say things that make me feel uncomfortable.

Now, I would NEVER tell someone that being childfree is wrong. Look at my post upthread, I've spent enough time working with kids to know that you have to WANT them to have them.

What I think most of the critics are saying is that if the mother didn't want children (as she's obviously had a bad experience) she shouldn't have had them.

But maybe she changed her mind, and that's fine, but still... she has an obligation to protect her children, and I agree with the poster who said it WOULD be damaging to see your mother railing against having children.

Also, I've seen NOTHING in this thread warranting the vehemence of your post. Everyone's been polite, and relatively mild. You're free to disagree, but I think you took your disagreement far beyond what was necessary. NO ONE is attacking the Childfree. We're stating PERSONAL INSTANCES of people making us feel uncomfortable for not being so.

You know what? Other than the question of whether non-CFers are ever made to feel uncomfortable in the Pro-choice movement, I agree with you completely.

The existence of one legitimate wrong does not deny the existence of another. That's a basic summary of my post.

RoseRose


Lady Adriata

Friendly Entrepreneur

7,800 Points
  • Tycoon 200
  • Profitable 100
  • The Perfect Setup 150
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:27 pm


RoseRose
MipsyKitten
Aiko_Kaida
Sometimes I really wish that the child-free and pro-choice movements were not so closely related. I sometimes get the sense that I am looked down upon or perceived as "not pro-choice enough" because I am not part of the child-free movement, I love children, and plan on having them.
I don't think whether or not having children is a good thing has anything to do with our pro-choice arguments.
I'm going to have to call bullshit on this, and everyone who's said the Childfree movement's goal is to look down on mothers. You've gotten the feeling that you've been looked down upon because you want kids? Has anyone actually said you don't know what you want, that you'll change your mind, or that you're not capable of making a choice on your own? Has anyone actually said that to you? To your face or in writing?


They've said it to my face on my college campus, at least that I'll change my mind. Once people found out I was working in childcare, they told me I'd change my mind about having children... some of them as a joke, but others were dead serious.

Quote:
I've had people online, and off telling me I can't make the decision to not have kids, because I'm only 20 years old. I've had family members tell me to 'grow up' when I say I don't want kids, be the reason due to my physical, or mental well being.


And that's wrong. BUT, just because people have said things to you that are wrong, doesn't mean that people who agree with you about one thing wouldn't say things that are wrong to people who disagree on that issue.

Quote:
Now, I've seen the softer, and the more extreme sides of the Childfree movement. I've read too many instances where a woman was turned down for a tubal, because she was too young. Where women have been ridiculed by their families for not producing grandchildren, and situations where women have been left by their husbands/boyfriends, because they decided they wanted kids after X amount of years of being together. I have never, ever heard anyone say that the only real Pro-Choicers are Childfree.

Since when is making everyone Childfree Pro-Choice? When was that ever said, or implied? No one's saying you can't be a mother. No one's looking down on you for wanting kids. I'm am seriously pissed off that people here can even imply that people here push for abortion. We push for the CHOICE to have an abortion. I can not tell you the rage I'm feeling right now, because people want to come here and harp on about us not supporting women becoming mothers. I'm guessing none of you remember the instances involving two pro-choicers, one who aborted, and one who didn't? Some people still have the images in their signatures in support.

We need more Pro-Choice mothers? No we ******** don't. We need more women who made a choice, regardless of the outcome. Not a damn person here has implied that Pro-Choice is the same as Pro-abortion. Obviously the people saying this haven't had the brunt of people actually telling you that. People actually calling you 'baby killers' for wanting choice. You want to know how I, and servaral other people see it? When there are topics about being Childfree, and the hurdles that are put in front of you because of it, there are servaral people who like to turn the subject around to include mothers. There haven't been many Childfree subjects where someone hasn't come in to hijack the conversation, or come in with "well I can't imagine not being a mother/not having kids. I love the smell, and the feeling and it's so great!"

Stop. It. Now.

People set up conversations looking for views, yet when the person who doesn't want to be a mother comes in with her views, she's bombarded by mothers, and potential mothers showing their views in her face. Someone has a personal view, and people find it necessary to take it personally, and throw a fit. Take this thread as an example. The people who want to be mothers take offense to someone's view. Someone's personal view that they have lived through.

If you want to be a mother, fine, but don't act like the Pro-Choice movement is anti-mother. That's complete and utter bullshit. The same people fighting for choice, and fighting for better rights for mothers, children and families.


And Mipsy, I've SEEN people in the ADT basically say, "EW! Babies!" Not in those words, but there have been times when I've felt on the outside of the movement here on Gaia because I want children. I'm not going to name names of people who made me feel this way, because I do think it was unintentional... but it DOES happen. Some CFers get VERY defensive, and say things that make me feel uncomfortable.

Now, I would NEVER tell someone that being childfree is wrong. Look at my post upthread, I've spent enough time working with kids to know that you have to WANT them to have them.

What I think most of the critics are saying is that if the mother didn't want children (as she's obviously had a bad experience) she shouldn't have had them.

But maybe she changed her mind, and that's fine, but still... she has an obligation to protect her children, and I agree with the poster who said it WOULD be damaging to see your mother railing against having children.

Also, I've seen NOTHING in this thread warranting the vehemence of your post. Everyone's been polite, and relatively mild. You're free to disagree, but I think you took your disagreement far beyond what was necessary. NO ONE is attacking the Childfree. We're stating PERSONAL INSTANCES of people making us feel uncomfortable for not being so.

You know what? Other than the question of whether non-CFers are ever made to feel uncomfortable in the Pro-choice movement, I agree with you completely.

The existence of one legitimate wrong does not deny the existence of another. That's a basic summary of my post.


Thank you Rose.

The kind of response we got for voicing our discomfort for the connections being made between Childfree and Pro-Choice only further makes me uncomfortable.

I'm not sure why me wanting children and disliking reading about how women who have children are irresponsible in the ADT warrants that sort of a response.
Reply
Pro-Choice Gaians

Goto Page: 1 2 3 [>] [»|]
 
Manage Your Items
Other Stuff
Get GCash
Offers
Get Items
More Items
Where Everyone Hangs Out
Other Community Areas
Virtual Spaces
Fun Stuff
Gaia's Games
Mini-Games
Play with GCash
Play with Platinum