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Ultra Big Mega Super Sean

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:25 am


I have a hard time, sometimes, trying to discern what I am.
My family line is Jewish, or at the least we have a very good assumption they are. The records of my great-grandparents travels, the areas they settled in, and my grandmother's uncle's own statement do help.
Yet I do not follow the religion.
And I know that Reformed Judaism states religion only, but traditional Judaism is ethicity as well as religion.
So, in the most simplistic terms, am I Jewish because of my family line, or am I not due to religion?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:19 am


If you have a family tradition that "we are Jewish," along the maternal lineage, then you are Jewish. If your mother is Jewish by birth -- even if neither she nor you ever practiced the Jewish religion -- you are still a Jew. Reform Judaism states that a Jew is someone who has one Jewish parent of either gender, OR if they have converted under the auspices of any branch of Judaism (Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, Traditional, Renewal, Orthodox). Other branches of Judaism recognize that you are born Jewish only if your mother is a Jew through birth or conversion, or if you yourself converted.

If your mother is a Jew by birth or conversion, you are also a Jew, even if you never keep a single mitzvah in your life. Your children, however, must have a Jewish mother in order to be born Jewish.

By the way -- if a Jewish woman abandons her Judaism and actively practices another religion, and gives birth during this time in her life, the baby is not Jewish. Even if the mother later returns to her Jewish roots (called making t'shuvah/return), the baby still has to be converted in order to be considered Jewish. And if a born-Jewish person dies while in a state of apostasy (actively living according to another religion), they are not considered a Jew in death, but are buried outside the Jewish cemetary.

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Ultra Big Mega Super Sean

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:15 pm


Thank you.
That was very informative.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:36 pm


However, I am a belief that a person with a strong jewish lineage cannot become unjewish, and you can at any time, come back to the religion.

LordNeuf
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:52 pm


So, technically, a Jewish person is always a Jewish person by blood and heritage, but not necessarily by faith. Is that right? I still don't understand why your kids would need two Jewish parents to be considered Jewish. Could they be considered half Jewish? And why would a baby need to be converted, if the baby doesn't understand anything anyways? Unless it gets baptized. That is a different story.

BTW, Hendrik Heidler, long time no see.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:32 am


Hello there, Raito.
I see your point too, Neuf.

Ultra Big Mega Super Sean


LordNeuf
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:49 am


[Raito]
So, technically, a Jewish person is always a Jewish person by blood and heritage, but not necessarily by faith. Is that right? I still don't understand why your kids would need two Jewish parents to be considered Jewish. Could they be considered half Jewish?


Much like wizards and muggles in the wonderful world of Harry Potter and The Truckload of J.K. Rowling's Money, there are half blooded jews.

Does this make them any less jewish? I'm going to have to go with a maybe.

As far as I'm concerned if mom is jewish, and dad isn't. The kid is jewish, but the kid's tribal lineage is cut. I.E. If mother was a Choeni or a Levi the kid will not be. If dad is Jewish but mom isn't. The kid is half blooded, and would not be considered "one of us," in certain circles.

If the child is adopted, it would require a conversion.

HOWEVER, all this falls to the wayside the moment the child becomes a bar or bat mitzvah. The lineage of the kid could be a bhuddist monk from Tibet and a Chinese farmgirl get it on and decide to give up their child for adoption, and the kid gets adopted by two jews in New York. The child is raised as a jew, and becomes a Bar Mitzvah, that child is jewish. Period. They've taken up the right of passage to stand infront of their jewish community to take part of one of the holiest mitvahs of reading from the Torah. That's what it takes, in my mind, for a convert to beconsidered "one of us."

However, that's just my humble opinion.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:52 pm


[Raito]
So, technically, a Jewish person is always a Jewish person by blood and heritage, but not necessarily by faith. Is that right? I still don't understand why your kids would need two Jewish parents to be considered Jewish. Could they be considered half Jewish? And why would a baby need to be converted, if the baby doesn't understand anything anyways? Unless it gets baptized. That is a different story.


Technically a person is Jewish if their mother is Jewish. The father, if he is Jewish, determines the child's tribal affiliation -- Kohein (direct descendant of the Levite known as Aharon, or Aaron, the brother of Moshe/Moses); Leivi (Levite), a direct descendant of Leivi/Levi, the third son of Ya'akov/Jacob, but not of Aharon; or Yisrael, every other Jew. If a person's mother is Jewish, then the person is fully Jewish, not a half-Jew, even if the person's father is not a Jew. If the person's mother is not a Jew, then the person is not a Jew either, regardless of whether the father is Jewish. However, the person with the Jewish father and non-Jewish mother can say that they are of some Jewish heritage. There is no such thing as a half-Jew.

A baby's conversion has nothing to do with its understanding, and everything to do with its heritage. A person who is not born Jewish is not a Jew by heritage. However, they can become Jewish if they convert, themselves -- or if their parents have them converted (adopted into the family of Yisrael). In the latter case, the child is considered a sofek Jew, a "maybe Jew." Only when the child reaches the age of bar mitzvah (13 for boys) or bat mitzvah (12 for girls) can they confirm that they want their conversion to stand and that they want to consider themselves bound to the mitzvot (the 613 commandments incumbent upon all Jews). If they don't confirm it, they're not a Jew. If they do confirm it, they're a Jew.

Halachah -- Jewish law -- does not recognize a half-Jew. It only recognizes whether a person has converted, or whether a person's mother is Jewish, or not.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:28 am


Thank you for clearing this up for me. It makes a lot more sense now.

So much for calling one of my friends a half-jew.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:47 pm


I have been wondering that for a very long time! I assumed that's how it went, but I always wondered if I was actually right.

Thanks for the information.

And Neuf, Harry Potter, for some reason, is extremely World War II/Facist Germany to me. Especially the last one with all the muggle registration and the judgement of lineage done by the ministry. I wonder if that was something she chose to do? To be reminisent of the people persecuted in the Holocaust or perhaps specifically Jews...

kingpinsqeezels


darkphoenix1247
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:51 pm


kingpinsqeezels
I have been wondering that for a very long time! I assumed that's how it went, but I always wondered if I was actually right.

Thanks for the information.

And Neuf, Harry Potter, for some reason, is extremely World War II/Facist Germany to me. Especially the last one with all the muggle registration and the judgement of lineage done by the ministry. I wonder if that was something she chose to do? To be reminisent of the people persecuted in the Holocaust or perhaps specifically Jews...

I don't know, but the whole Nuremgrad thing as well had me confused as to why she chose such enormous Holocaust parallels....
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:45 pm


Yes, J. K. Rowling consciously chose to parallel the Nazi movement with the Death Eaters and their ilk. Even down to Voldemort's being a half-blood. There's a persistent legend that Hitler was part Jewish. He wasn't, in fact, but the rumor is so popular that I'm sure it influenced her treatment of Voldemort. Nurmengard is almost certainly supposed to suggest Nuremberg by similarity of sound. Azkaban is supposed to look like the Nazi death camps, and the restrictions on Muggle-born wizards are definitely supposed to recall the restrictions placed on Jews throughout most of Europe during that awful time. Rowling did a great job of it all, and the movies are doing a great job of being true to that vision.

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kingpinsqeezels

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:33 pm


Yes, I saw the Nurmengrad similarity as well. Maybe she'll write another book where muggle borns are given land by the ministry that causes a never ending war between the magical and non-magical.

I wonder why she chose the Holocaust. Maybe someone in her family was persecuted by the Nazis? Maybe she just thought it was appropriate... I wonder.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:12 pm


She's British. They saw the Holocaust up close, and it understandably freaked them out. Even those who were born after that awful time still feel its effects in their parents and grandparents, in their stories that they tell, and in the memories they don't share too.

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kingpinsqeezels

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:58 pm


This is true. They saw it up close and most of them still probably feel guilty for not acting more quickly. I suppose it makes sense.
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Jewish Gaians Guild

 
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