i'm part of a livejournal community in which another user posted a bazillion responses to this question. I think that when formulating your own opinion on an issue you should absorb as many facts and opinions as possible before stating your solid opinion on things. so, here is what was written on that lj community.
Quote:
In response to “Is there a connection between feminism and gay rights?”
“Many people relate feminists and bisexuals/lesbians because most bisexuals/lesbians are feminists. Bisexuals/lesbians our out there and have to fight to be who they are and so they are usually out fighting for feminism too.
Feminism is too broad of a term to associate a certain type of people with it. one of the problems with our society is that it is too quick to judge and stereotype. in my opinion more women would be feminists if they weren't afraid of being thought of as gay.”
Ash, 21, IN
“I don't like that feminism is related to lesbianism. I never say I am a feminist, anymore, because several people in the past have assumed I was gay--and I find that extremley offensive.
I don't want people to think I'm gay.. so I keep my mouth shut.”
Ana, 18, Columbus, Ohio
“I think that feminism and gay rights do have to be related. The same is true of class issues, race issues, and even weight issues. Early liberal feminists, most of whom were middle class, white, straight women ended up alienating so many other women because they ignored the way issues of equality are intertwined for so many people. Every woman experiences inequality differently due to these many different threads, and feminism is never going to be successful for all women if we keep ignoring that fact and trying to pretend that we're all the same.
As for the many women who are afraid of admitting their feminism because they might be mistaken as lesbians, I just have to roll my eyes. What's the big deal? Anyone who assumes that is obviously an ignorant a**, so why does it matter what they think? And if it bothers you, then just correct them and use the situation as a chance to correct their misconceptions about feminism. Educate them - feminism isn't going to be successful if people continue thinking feminists are all man-hating lesbians who don't shave their legs.
And, in the end, we can't ignore that there is a connection between feminists and lesbians. We wouldn't be where we are today if it wasn't for the many lesbian feminists who helped drive the second wave of feminism in the 1960s and '70s.”
Rachel, 21, Rochester, NH/Williamstown, MA
“I think that it's a big stereotype that all feminists are bi or full blooded lesbian. I think feminists are a big mix of different types of women. Gay, straight, black, white, Christian, Jew, etc. And there are men too who support these women and take part in feminist rallies. So I guess those males would be considered feminists as well.
As far as the connection between gays rights and feminism, it's a bit hard to say. I do believe that most feminists are for gays and vice versa. However I'm sure there are some gay males who are very active in gay rights, but don't believe that women should have equal rights as men. And there are probably some straight feminists who don't believe that gays should be given the same rights and benefits as straights, ex. marriage and adoption.”
Sandra, 17, Windsor, Ontario, Canada
“The feminist and gay rights movements are specifically intertwined because they both deal with the issue of gender roles. This is not to say that all feminists are gay rights activists or vice versa, but many are. A more specific reason to find commonality in their aims is because of the ties between feminism and lesbianism. Some parts of feminist ideology stress the fact that women do not need to be dependent on a man and choosing a female partner may be a way to show this. Of course, there are several reasons for women to be attracted to other women and I am not suggesting that feminism is solely responsible for lesbianism.”
Richard Martinez, 23, Long Beach, CA
“Sure I see that they are connected. When the civil rights movement started in the 60s it was made of up tiny factions - blacks, women, homosexuals (and the free speech and anti-war groups) - they are all fighting for the same thing - equality and freedom that their counterparts enjoyed. Their focus may be different but their ultimate goal is the same.”
Dawn 26, CA
“By assuming that all feminists are lesbians, which is simply not true, one also assumes that all feminists are women which is also simply not the case. Feminism is an attempt for equality similar to civil rights for all races, equal treatment of religious people, as well as homosexuals and other people that may be deemed as "different." If someone supports feminism they may also support gay rights, just like if someone supports gay rights they may also support feminism. If they support equality then most likely they support both, but it is not a requirement of a feminist to also support gay rights or be a lesbian.”
Rebecca, age 17, Connecticut
“Neither is in the same category as the other. The advocation and pursuit of gay rights is a political torch to be carried, and, like it or not, feminism isn't. Feminism tries to be a viable cause, but much like the black power movement in the late nineties, it has lost its justification. Both groups were not fighting for an Equality they know and understand, but rather a percieved equality about which they've an incredibly vague concept. Two problems will come from this, the first being that they have no idea what they're fighting for (though, ironically, this is why they fight tooth and nail for it), and the second being the fact that once they reach a plateau of sorts, they will look around, blink, and realize they have no idea where they are or why they wished to be where they now find themselves. On second thought, why the hell would anyone compare feminism with gay rights? The former concerns a cause that burnt down awhile ago and whose embers have been unsuccessfully fanned ever since. Does it not say a great deal about the cause when one looks at its recent history and sees that the fourth wave of feminism is the only thing that has succeeded in the revitalization of the movement, and it is also the first thing in a while that has actually deviated from the old approach and gone off in a logical direction? Women have abandoned that which is obviously dead in favor of something new, something that makes sense, and something that may actually work, rather than something which will only succeed in brewing hate and discontent between men and women, leaving both groups incapable of understanding where all this bad blood came from. The latter, the campaign for gay rights, is the ongoing struggle of a minority to keep their political identity from being gutted, which is a very real, very justified fear on their part.
The basic problem with feminism is its reckless conviction that total and absolute equality is actually what it wants, and it has convinced itself of this. Some have taken this tack because it's more socially acceptable than the admission that they just want to be better than men, but really, it seems as though most of them just want some sort of reason to be as reactionary as all hell, and these really haven't the foggiest idea why they've taken the tack they have. Either way, both parties are not only fighting on the wrong battlefield, but someone's slipped them the wrong weapons entirely. There is a new upsurge of "feminists" who feel that women ought to find strength in each other, but that movement actually seems logical and justified (same one I mentioned earlier), so they aren't mentioned here. You may ask, "Ok, if they shouldn't want absolute equality, that holy grail of the unfocused, then what should they want?" I suppose the key lies in the way one thinks about it, and the last thirty-odd years have found us at the bottom of a very deep hole, and instead of trying to climb out, we've been furiously trying to smoothe the sides and make our surroundings more comfortable. Needless to say, this doesn't alleviate the problem. The key is the acceptance that men and women are nearly exact opposites, and this undeniable point is what makes life worth living, in a lot of ways. Life ought to be a matter of complementation and completion, rather than ill-will and competition. Neither sex will ever excell in an area the other is hard-wired for. Before the punters pipe up with anecdotes about single fathers and executive mothers, let it be admitted that there are and will always be many, many exceptions. In an equally valid point, could you plunk ANY woman down in an executive postition and expect her to do well? Could you present ANY man with the demands of three toddlers and expect him to excell? Much as some of you may feel it debases your particular faction, the answer to both questions is obviously "no." Absolute sexual equality is something no one really wants because it would smother such a long list of naturally human traits and it would make life considerably less intricate. Anyone seen Zardoz? Fortunately for those who still want it, it'll never happen and so you'll never have to deal with the consequences of your disillusionment. Even asking whether or not men and women are equal is ridiculous because theyre so different and so tenable in completely different, incomparable ways. The key is acceptance of this fact. Perhaps the key may also be equal salaries. Which do you think would make everyone calm down? Answer honestly.”
Reid, 17, Oregon
“Let me get this straight... Because some feminists are lesbians, they make all feminists look bad? Not only does this imply that being a lesbian is a bad thing, it implies that there are people simple-minded enough to buy into the cliché that all feminists are lesbians.
Okay, okay, I *know* those people are out there. People frighten me with just how stupid they can manage to be.
First, I don't find it insulting if someone mistakes me for a lesbian. Second, most *intelligent* people these days are aware that being a feminist does not mean being a lesbian - and being a lesbian does not mean being a feminist. There is no actual relation between the two. You can be one without the other.
I don't know what relation that last section of the quote has to the subject, so I think I'll just leave it.
Feminism and gay rights are similar issues - feminists and gay rights activists are striving for the same thing: equality. The fight against racism is much the same. Other than that, I don't believe there is a connection. They're completely separate causes for completely separate groups.”
Kelly, 22, Canada
“I see that they go hand in hand by the virtue of the fact that gay rights is another issue that involves "rights" in the context. Anything rights related usually goes hand in hand with any other because its a concept that stems from the notion of a lack of them and a feeling that they need to be forced into creation. The truth be told is that there are no rights in this world. The simple concept of life isn’t even a right. I’m diverging now but its basically a political ideology that spans the spectrum of the notion of deserved rights instead of earned rights. The fringes of society will never have the kind of political power that the majority has. Its how this democracy was designed to function.”
Scott, 22, Reno, NV
“There is a connection between the struggle against ALL oppressions, particularly ones so closely linked to gender issues. Anyone who tries to de-link the two struggles, or somehow invalidate either, is either foolish, drastically misinformed, or deliberately trying to destroy years of effective, important activism.”
Zack, 20, New Jersey, USA
“Well, I’m a lesbian, and feminist, but I think that I developed into each of these identities separately. I do think that there are similarities between the gay rights movement, and the feminist movement, just in the same way that there are similarities between racial inequality and feminism.
I personally happen to know quite a few heterosexual female feminists, and even some heterosexual male feminists. Accusing feminists of being gay "femi-nazi's is a generalization, and this person obviously has not taken the time to actually get to know feminists.
I would also like to add that I think that a government should be run for the people, by the people, not a bunch of rich, white, male heterosexuals, who got their position and education not because they are smarter, or better human beings, but by the mistake of being born into a position of privilege. The public are not "uneducated ********". They are the sole core of a country, and they are also valid persons, capable of forming thoughts and opinions. If they do happen to be "uneducated" it is for lack of opportunity, rather than anything else.”
Rachelle E, 15, Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Canada
“I'm a young woman, in college, I'm a twin, a dancer, a minority, I am in the military, and I like to read and write... Hopefully, I'll fight hard enough to make a difference in at least one of these aspects with as many people fighting right along beside me. And we can meet those who are fighting for gay rights, and environmental safety or what not, somewhere along the path. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the term has no significance, it is the action and the intent with which it is done that really makes a difference.”
Crystal, 21, Albuquerque, NM
“I think there is definitely a connection between certain branches of feminism and gay rights. Particularly feminisms that focus on sex vs. gender and contend that gender is not a natural extension of one's sex--but is instead a socialized personality and persona and/or performance. The connection with gay rights comes as a result of the fact that gay people are often gender-benders and they do things that aren't considered 'normal' of their sex. There is a certain level of assumed heterosexuality in most cultures and some feminists see this as a prime source of discrimination because heterosexual relationships crux on more traditional gender roles and performances.”
Heather, 21, Minnesota
“Many people relate feminists and bisexuals/lesbians because most bisexuals/lesbians are feminists. Bisexuals/lesbians our out there and have to fight to be who they are and so they are usually out fighting for feminism too.
Feminism is too broad of a term to associate a certain type of people with it. one of the problems with our society is that it is too quick to judge and stereotype. in my opinion more women would be feminists if they weren't afraid of being thought of as gay.”
Ash, 21, IN
“I don't like that feminism is related to lesbianism. I never say I am a feminist, anymore, because several people in the past have assumed I was gay--and I find that extremley offensive.
I don't want people to think I'm gay.. so I keep my mouth shut.”
Ana, 18, Columbus, Ohio
“I think that feminism and gay rights do have to be related. The same is true of class issues, race issues, and even weight issues. Early liberal feminists, most of whom were middle class, white, straight women ended up alienating so many other women because they ignored the way issues of equality are intertwined for so many people. Every woman experiences inequality differently due to these many different threads, and feminism is never going to be successful for all women if we keep ignoring that fact and trying to pretend that we're all the same.
As for the many women who are afraid of admitting their feminism because they might be mistaken as lesbians, I just have to roll my eyes. What's the big deal? Anyone who assumes that is obviously an ignorant a**, so why does it matter what they think? And if it bothers you, then just correct them and use the situation as a chance to correct their misconceptions about feminism. Educate them - feminism isn't going to be successful if people continue thinking feminists are all man-hating lesbians who don't shave their legs.
And, in the end, we can't ignore that there is a connection between feminists and lesbians. We wouldn't be where we are today if it wasn't for the many lesbian feminists who helped drive the second wave of feminism in the 1960s and '70s.”
Rachel, 21, Rochester, NH/Williamstown, MA
“I think that it's a big stereotype that all feminists are bi or full blooded lesbian. I think feminists are a big mix of different types of women. Gay, straight, black, white, Christian, Jew, etc. And there are men too who support these women and take part in feminist rallies. So I guess those males would be considered feminists as well.
As far as the connection between gays rights and feminism, it's a bit hard to say. I do believe that most feminists are for gays and vice versa. However I'm sure there are some gay males who are very active in gay rights, but don't believe that women should have equal rights as men. And there are probably some straight feminists who don't believe that gays should be given the same rights and benefits as straights, ex. marriage and adoption.”
Sandra, 17, Windsor, Ontario, Canada
“The feminist and gay rights movements are specifically intertwined because they both deal with the issue of gender roles. This is not to say that all feminists are gay rights activists or vice versa, but many are. A more specific reason to find commonality in their aims is because of the ties between feminism and lesbianism. Some parts of feminist ideology stress the fact that women do not need to be dependent on a man and choosing a female partner may be a way to show this. Of course, there are several reasons for women to be attracted to other women and I am not suggesting that feminism is solely responsible for lesbianism.”
Richard Martinez, 23, Long Beach, CA
“Sure I see that they are connected. When the civil rights movement started in the 60s it was made of up tiny factions - blacks, women, homosexuals (and the free speech and anti-war groups) - they are all fighting for the same thing - equality and freedom that their counterparts enjoyed. Their focus may be different but their ultimate goal is the same.”
Dawn 26, CA
“By assuming that all feminists are lesbians, which is simply not true, one also assumes that all feminists are women which is also simply not the case. Feminism is an attempt for equality similar to civil rights for all races, equal treatment of religious people, as well as homosexuals and other people that may be deemed as "different." If someone supports feminism they may also support gay rights, just like if someone supports gay rights they may also support feminism. If they support equality then most likely they support both, but it is not a requirement of a feminist to also support gay rights or be a lesbian.”
Rebecca, age 17, Connecticut
“Neither is in the same category as the other. The advocation and pursuit of gay rights is a political torch to be carried, and, like it or not, feminism isn't. Feminism tries to be a viable cause, but much like the black power movement in the late nineties, it has lost its justification. Both groups were not fighting for an Equality they know and understand, but rather a percieved equality about which they've an incredibly vague concept. Two problems will come from this, the first being that they have no idea what they're fighting for (though, ironically, this is why they fight tooth and nail for it), and the second being the fact that once they reach a plateau of sorts, they will look around, blink, and realize they have no idea where they are or why they wished to be where they now find themselves. On second thought, why the hell would anyone compare feminism with gay rights? The former concerns a cause that burnt down awhile ago and whose embers have been unsuccessfully fanned ever since. Does it not say a great deal about the cause when one looks at its recent history and sees that the fourth wave of feminism is the only thing that has succeeded in the revitalization of the movement, and it is also the first thing in a while that has actually deviated from the old approach and gone off in a logical direction? Women have abandoned that which is obviously dead in favor of something new, something that makes sense, and something that may actually work, rather than something which will only succeed in brewing hate and discontent between men and women, leaving both groups incapable of understanding where all this bad blood came from. The latter, the campaign for gay rights, is the ongoing struggle of a minority to keep their political identity from being gutted, which is a very real, very justified fear on their part.
The basic problem with feminism is its reckless conviction that total and absolute equality is actually what it wants, and it has convinced itself of this. Some have taken this tack because it's more socially acceptable than the admission that they just want to be better than men, but really, it seems as though most of them just want some sort of reason to be as reactionary as all hell, and these really haven't the foggiest idea why they've taken the tack they have. Either way, both parties are not only fighting on the wrong battlefield, but someone's slipped them the wrong weapons entirely. There is a new upsurge of "feminists" who feel that women ought to find strength in each other, but that movement actually seems logical and justified (same one I mentioned earlier), so they aren't mentioned here. You may ask, "Ok, if they shouldn't want absolute equality, that holy grail of the unfocused, then what should they want?" I suppose the key lies in the way one thinks about it, and the last thirty-odd years have found us at the bottom of a very deep hole, and instead of trying to climb out, we've been furiously trying to smoothe the sides and make our surroundings more comfortable. Needless to say, this doesn't alleviate the problem. The key is the acceptance that men and women are nearly exact opposites, and this undeniable point is what makes life worth living, in a lot of ways. Life ought to be a matter of complementation and completion, rather than ill-will and competition. Neither sex will ever excell in an area the other is hard-wired for. Before the punters pipe up with anecdotes about single fathers and executive mothers, let it be admitted that there are and will always be many, many exceptions. In an equally valid point, could you plunk ANY woman down in an executive postition and expect her to do well? Could you present ANY man with the demands of three toddlers and expect him to excell? Much as some of you may feel it debases your particular faction, the answer to both questions is obviously "no." Absolute sexual equality is something no one really wants because it would smother such a long list of naturally human traits and it would make life considerably less intricate. Anyone seen Zardoz? Fortunately for those who still want it, it'll never happen and so you'll never have to deal with the consequences of your disillusionment. Even asking whether or not men and women are equal is ridiculous because theyre so different and so tenable in completely different, incomparable ways. The key is acceptance of this fact. Perhaps the key may also be equal salaries. Which do you think would make everyone calm down? Answer honestly.”
Reid, 17, Oregon
“Let me get this straight... Because some feminists are lesbians, they make all feminists look bad? Not only does this imply that being a lesbian is a bad thing, it implies that there are people simple-minded enough to buy into the cliché that all feminists are lesbians.
Okay, okay, I *know* those people are out there. People frighten me with just how stupid they can manage to be.
First, I don't find it insulting if someone mistakes me for a lesbian. Second, most *intelligent* people these days are aware that being a feminist does not mean being a lesbian - and being a lesbian does not mean being a feminist. There is no actual relation between the two. You can be one without the other.
I don't know what relation that last section of the quote has to the subject, so I think I'll just leave it.
Feminism and gay rights are similar issues - feminists and gay rights activists are striving for the same thing: equality. The fight against racism is much the same. Other than that, I don't believe there is a connection. They're completely separate causes for completely separate groups.”
Kelly, 22, Canada
“I see that they go hand in hand by the virtue of the fact that gay rights is another issue that involves "rights" in the context. Anything rights related usually goes hand in hand with any other because its a concept that stems from the notion of a lack of them and a feeling that they need to be forced into creation. The truth be told is that there are no rights in this world. The simple concept of life isn’t even a right. I’m diverging now but its basically a political ideology that spans the spectrum of the notion of deserved rights instead of earned rights. The fringes of society will never have the kind of political power that the majority has. Its how this democracy was designed to function.”
Scott, 22, Reno, NV
“There is a connection between the struggle against ALL oppressions, particularly ones so closely linked to gender issues. Anyone who tries to de-link the two struggles, or somehow invalidate either, is either foolish, drastically misinformed, or deliberately trying to destroy years of effective, important activism.”
Zack, 20, New Jersey, USA
“Well, I’m a lesbian, and feminist, but I think that I developed into each of these identities separately. I do think that there are similarities between the gay rights movement, and the feminist movement, just in the same way that there are similarities between racial inequality and feminism.
I personally happen to know quite a few heterosexual female feminists, and even some heterosexual male feminists. Accusing feminists of being gay "femi-nazi's is a generalization, and this person obviously has not taken the time to actually get to know feminists.
I would also like to add that I think that a government should be run for the people, by the people, not a bunch of rich, white, male heterosexuals, who got their position and education not because they are smarter, or better human beings, but by the mistake of being born into a position of privilege. The public are not "uneducated ********". They are the sole core of a country, and they are also valid persons, capable of forming thoughts and opinions. If they do happen to be "uneducated" it is for lack of opportunity, rather than anything else.”
Rachelle E, 15, Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Canada
“I'm a young woman, in college, I'm a twin, a dancer, a minority, I am in the military, and I like to read and write... Hopefully, I'll fight hard enough to make a difference in at least one of these aspects with as many people fighting right along beside me. And we can meet those who are fighting for gay rights, and environmental safety or what not, somewhere along the path. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the term has no significance, it is the action and the intent with which it is done that really makes a difference.”
Crystal, 21, Albuquerque, NM
“I think there is definitely a connection between certain branches of feminism and gay rights. Particularly feminisms that focus on sex vs. gender and contend that gender is not a natural extension of one's sex--but is instead a socialized personality and persona and/or performance. The connection with gay rights comes as a result of the fact that gay people are often gender-benders and they do things that aren't considered 'normal' of their sex. There is a certain level of assumed heterosexuality in most cultures and some feminists see this as a prime source of discrimination because heterosexual relationships crux on more traditional gender roles and performances.”
Heather, 21, Minnesota
all this can be found at this address.
