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 Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:32 am
I would choose this thread to make my reappearance in the church proper rolleyes Note for people who have no idea who I am: Hi! My name is Cryllia pleasure to meet you ^_^ I've been on Gaia for just over three years, and a member of CoM for all but a couple of months of that. Rommy was kind enough to grant me sainthood, under the title of Compassion. I've been on hiatus from the church for quite a while, although I did poke my head in on occasion. This was mostly due to real-life taking over...my life. That being said, life has receeded to the point where I feel comfortable getting involved in more threads and the church once again. I have several mules who are 'members' of the Church in one sense or another, but I doubt you'll ever see them. So, stop in and say hi sometime! I'd like to meet all the 'new' people!Right, now to actually reply to the thread. I am unaware of what caused this current debate, and I'm happy to remain that way. I haven't actually seen anyone deny that there is elitism in the thread and church. What I'm seeing debated is the level and whether or not it's a bad thing. I've seen lots of people saying that it's human nature. True, but if we take this to the M&R level, its more than that. First, to define elitism as I'm using it: Quote: Elite: the most powerful, rich, gifted, or educated members of a group, community, et cetera Elitism: pride in or awareness of being one of an elite group. We are a Church in every sense of the word, except for the preachers. DYB started as a joke, but quickly grew into something more. The something more was the Church itself. It was created with certain beliefs in mind. They were clothed in laughter, but the belief system was still there. Follow the Rules. Be Intelligent. Be Nice. Don't Spam. Don't Piss Off the Mods. I don't know about you, but I say quite proudly that I'm a Modist. I try to live up to the expectations put before me by the system that we set up ourselves. I have a tendancy to ignore or (if truly awful) put down people who don't fit into these 'ideals' that post in the thread. We are a Church. As such we have a leader (if reluctant wink ). We have people who have been around for ages. We have new converts. The former tends to look on the latter with initial suspicion. After all, they know what it takes to be a 'true Modist' and are deeply confirmed and entrenched in that belief. I'm willing to guess that several of the 'converts' in fact don't actually understand what its all about - casual believers if you will. A great number of the oldbies have been forged together by more than a thread that was intended as a joke. We've gotten personal, we've held each other through heartaches. We've railed at each other, screaming at the top of our lunges. And the friendship came through not only in tact, but better. In M&R there is (or was...) a rule - burden of proof. In this case, the people who are 'new' bear that burden. Prove to those who are confirmed believers that you are willing to put in the same time and energy that they have. Does that make the oldbies elitist? Yes, by definition above. Is that bad? I can't say. From the knowledge that I have - nope. Not a bit.
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Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:29 pm
Deoridhe Heh, ironically, I think the reverse. In M&R Rommy made it a point to not ignore anyone and to forbid discussion of M&R in the thread in order to keep it open to all people. I know in M&R I greeted EVERYONE who posted while I was on, no matter how briefly. In the CB I regularly ignore people who post just a greeting, and I've seen several on a page that no one responded to, because so often in the CB that person is posting for money and won't be back. Not saying either is a bad thing - both are, I think, appropriate responses to the change in venue - but the former was actively trying to be the only chat thread for the forum wheras now we're a little chat thread in a big forum. I think there's more reason for her having to ignore people in the Chatterbox, as the spam posts in M&R could be reported and deleted (iirc), while, really, anything goes in the CB. I don't remember the spam being anywhere near as bad in M&R as it is in the CB. Honestly, I won't name names, but I think there are some new people who wouldn't be as accepted as they are if the thread had stayed in M&R. It might have started changing near the end of it's time in M&R, I'm unsure as I wasn't there, but I don't remember there being a lot of new additions there in the same way as there has been new additions in the CB. It seems that everywhere I turn there's a new person whom I have no idea who they are (though it's calmed down lately). The group in M&R was perhaps a little smaller and thus a bit more cohesive, whereas now it seems there are groups of people who chat with each other, and that they simply interact with each other because we're in the same thread. Horrible wording, but I can't figure out another way to express it. Everyone interacts, sure, but I think there are those who prefer to interact with a specific set of people. Does that make more sense? Quote: My experience has, and I'll be dead honest here, that while I'm sometimes ignored, I have never felt deliberately excluded. Some of this may be how I presented myself, though. Definitely, how one presents themselves matters. Constantly claim you're not a part of the group, and hey, you won't be. sweatdrop << >>
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:03 am
For what little I have to say on the subject...
...it's more than slightly unnerving to be in a thread I've been in for years and suddenly realize that, while there is a conversation going on, I know none of the people involved in it. I've seen them in passing, perhaps exchanged words with them...but I don't know them. And I find myself reading conversations and finding that I don't want to know them. I suppose this makes me elitist. I found myself snapping irrationally recently because someone I didn't know was asking for an avatar reference from me. And I found myself not wanting to give it because I didn't know anything about this person, their art style or intentions. Foolishness and elitism, but it was my reaction.
Also, on the subject of Saints, saintings and such... it was earlier mentioned that when Saints enter the thread, people pay attention. I would have to say I disagree...when CERTAIN Saints enter the thread, people pay attention. The older the Saint (with the exception of Rommy) the less likely that person is to be noticed because the newer people simply don't know who the old Saint is...and possibly the older people just don't care because the popularity of that person has worn off.
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:44 am
Kiji, wear your wings more. wink
However, you do make a point.
Regular posting is also an issue, if people don't maintain a presence, they may be forgotten... I know after my hiatus, I felt quite lost, and rejoiced at finding even two people in the thread whom I knew at the same time. sweatdrop
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:54 am
Fiddlers Green Kiji, wear your wings more. wink However, you do make a point. Regular posting is also an issue, if people don't maintain a presence, they may be forgotten... I know after my hiatus, I felt quite lost, and rejoiced at finding even two people in the thread whom I knew at the same time. sweatdrop My other complication is that I'd rather be known as a poster than as a Saint. The convention of Sainting has bothered me ever since I got my wings in the first place. whee
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Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:57 pm
KijiLinn My other complication is that I'd rather be known as a poster than as a Saint. The convention of Sainting has bothered me ever since I got my wings in the first place. whee I'm sure Romuel wouldn't mind removing you from Saint status if you requested it, since it bothers you.
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Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:09 pm
I've always been of the opinion that elitism is in the eye of the beholder. A new person is coming into an already established "scene" and wants to be treated the same as people who've been a part for years?
Sorry, what?
( and yes, I of course realise I'm not really a ... prominent member, or debatabley even a member atall of the CoM/DYBIM 'group'. I'm pleased as punch with my status as "That artist girl Gendou knows", and I'd be crazy to expect more than that. You can't expect acceptance into a group, it just ... happens. )
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:50 pm
Okay, I believe someone asked me to clarify on what I meant by elitism. In this case, I'll go with the attitude that a person or group of people appear to have that leaves others feeling left out and/or inferior. Very poorly worded and for that I apologize.
I would definately say it was easier to be welcome back when the thread was in M&R. If I remember correctly, I just came in curious one day, got invited to join the guild immediately, and was chatting with the regulars like I felt I belonged. Now, I definately never see that happening. However, we are also bombarded with a lot more new people, whose character we know nothing about since the CB is basically a free for all. I would say we do well to try and welcome these people, but it's harder to maintain that special group dynamic.
I really don't believe this thread will resolve much. sweatdrop See, no one feels like they can give specific examples, since we have the 'no finger pointing rule'. Frankly, I have specific examples I could give, but won't. Then I'd have to worry about upsetting people and feeling less welcome. The problem with trying to fix the elitism is that no one really wants to speak up about it and upset the popular people, thus risking estranging themselves even more. The problem itself blocks the solution, and I think in a group as cool as this, people would rather be peripherally accepted then rejected for airring any complaints.
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Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:24 am
Well, seeing as this thread specifically is requesting people's complaints...
It would seem odd to me to hold against someone concerns aired here. confused
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Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:36 am
More than accusing other people, this thread could (and in my mind, should) encourage people to engage in a little self-inspection and introspection.
From what I've seen so far, we're all a little guilty.
People have levied more than one complaint against me and my conduct, privately and publically in the past few years. I'd like to think I've gotten better at not automatically dismissing people out right, but I can't pretend I'm not a part of a problem. I can only hope other people can see the same in themselves and try to rectify it, not only for the thread, but their own sake should they wish to continue to hang out in DYBIM.
Because the more you push people away, the more distant you'll feel from the group as a whole. You can't expect automatic respect from people you've never met, and you can't expect everything to be the same after being gone for a year or more. Things change. You can either accept that and deal or you fade away and join a new clique.
And as for people feeling persecuted, give it time. From what I've seen, everyone gets accepted sooner or later. Persistance is rewarded, apparently.
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Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:11 pm
Another issue that comes up, methinks, is personality and differences in expression.
Disclaimer:The following is an example, not a dig.
I mean, for the longest time, I thought Ruevian held me in mild contempt.
The, issue, as I understand it now was more a matter of miscommunication than anything else. We have members from across the globe, things will get garbled in translation from one regio (or just sub-culture) of the nation to another... so much more the chances when we have such a diverse group. 3nodding
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Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:31 pm
And, see, I had no idea you thought that. It confuses me that you did, frankly. I'm sorry.
Things get lost in translation also because normal, unspoken social cues aren't here. All we have is text and emoticons, and sometimes I don't even use emoticons. So if someone feels like the person SHOULD be contemptuous, perhaps we'd assume they ARE.
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Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:58 pm
No worries at all Ruevian, it's been sorted, besides, tis nothing that merits apology, you did not intend me any malice. heart
And she's right, I speak more with my posture, my tone of voice, and my gestures than I do with my words. Not to mention the fact that a read such things in others as much as I hear their words. Even with the written word, I can look at the tempo of the handwriting and the punctuation... In print, such as on this forum, I am bereft of my primary communication tools, and deprived of the means I use to decypher what others intend.
In such a sensory deprived environment, we must supplement from our own minds the rest.
Having spoken with a few people in person or on the phone, I can better grasp what they are typing, but that really isn't an option always.
Regardless, those were my copper pieces for that thought. 3nodding
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