Quote:
"If I remember correctly, it was you who posted a medical journal report and concluded that the fetus is a living human child. Now in regards to a woman's bodily domain, she engaged in a certain activity, knowing the risks, and with all her reason and will, made her choice. She became pregnant, but if, as you pointed out, the fetus inside her is alive, she is denying another human being's bodily domain. The fetus did not choose to be concieved, did not spontaniously "infect" her. She is responsible."
Your memory is somewhat correct. I did say that it was biologically human and alive (as opposed to dead and of another species.) but, I also said, that being human and alive are irrelevant, since this applies to all human cells. Also, the term "child" is incorrect. A child is a human between birth and adulthood, technically. Calling a fetus a child is incorrect unless this is a term of affection.
*Human and alive does apply to all the cells of the mother's body, but a fetus, while in the mother's womb, is not part of her. It has unique genetic makeup. It will develop distinct fingerprints. The fetus is individual and distinct from the mother. I prefer to use "child" rather than "fetus" because to me "fetus" seems too clinical and hypothetical.*
You and I have VERY different views about responsibility.
I, personally, beleive that true responsibility involves handling a situation with logic, thinking of the best interest of all invloved. Solving a problem or correcting a past mistake realistically. In some cases, it would be irresponsible for a woman to give birth to a child, but ultimately, the decision is up to her.
Many argue fetal bodily domain, but in this case, it is irrelevant. The person (assuming a fetus is such) who first violated another's bodily domain is the one who has lost theirs. (ie: A rapist cannot take legal action against a woman who injured him defending herself from him.)
*The fetus violated the woman's bodily domain? How can that be, when she and her boyfriend were the ones who PUT it there? Unless it somehow entered her body some other way?*
I also do not understand why a woman should lose her bodily domain by having consentual sex. First of all, that is blatant discrimination on the basis of sex. Second, she consented to her partner's use of her body, and not any zygote/embryo/fetus that may result. Thirdly, she consented to sex, not getting pregnant. When you get into a car and drive, you do not consent to being in an accident. I don't see how this is cause to take away the option of removing the fetus.
*When you get into a car, you do not consent to the accident, but you do understand that you may get into one. You know that a collision MAY be a possible outcome of your desicion to drive, but decide that it is an acceptable risk. People who engage in casual sex may not concent to a conception, but it is another possible outcome of their desicion, and the risk is taken. How is that sex discrimination? *
And that sounds awfully like you want to punish the women for consent to sex and/or contraceptive failure, anyway. What would you say in the case of rape? That fetus is still the same as any other, remember. It's also still forced incubation when you deny the woman the right or ability to remove it.
*I have already given my position on abortion because of rape on the forum. I consider that argument a smokescreen. First of all, exactly what defines "rape"? I have heard of women who start out the evening looking for consentual affairs, but than halfway through the act, change their mind and then call it "rape". Or how about the women who sleep with sports players while they are high/drunk and then sue for "rape"? Not only are the body;s physiological responses capable of preventing conception, but hospitals can remove the semen to prevent conception. *
"I am against abortion not only because of the unborn child, but because I have seen firsthand the suffering the women go through when they go into the clinic."
In what situation? Were you working, specifically, with women who were having trouble after and during their abortion? That would be a bit of a biased viewpoint. Where did you see these things?
And since you've seen them firsthand, why didn't you say so on the group forum? Before, you told me that you only assumed that abortion was traumatic for women.
*The women, rather girls, that were going in ther were usually very distressed. sometimes they would talk, sometimes they just listen for a moment. One does not need to be a phsycologist to read their faces. I don't want to fillet myself on the forum. I'm not there to talk about me unless it is relevant. I speak more freely with you because you debate well, and are not just sporting for a fight. I have more respect for you.*
"I have seen young girls in tears, practically being dragged in by boyfriends or family."
Well, that's not pro-choice. I am dreadfully sorry that you had to see these young women lose their reproductive rights at the hands of people who should have been supportive of their wishes. A good abortion/women's healthcare provider also provides counseling and refuses to do abortions on women who may be unwilling. (Planned Parenthood does this.)
*Really? Can you show me where it says this in their policy?*
"Accidents such as perforating the uterus or infection have left women sterile, so they can never have children when they do want them. I have seen hundreds of women's names, all killed by "safe and legal" abortion (And that is just what the clinics document for the state. Many abortion related deaths are not reported as such). "
Again, I'd like to know just where you saw these things.
If you saw them personally, why did you not report the clinic(s) where you saw this and have them sued for malpractice or shut down? No healthcare provider is allowed to just get away with things like that.
I have not worked inside an abortion clinic. However, The clinic is sponsored by PP and abortion clinics are nearly untouchable because PP plays the legal system like a violin. I will forward you the list of names. I will have to find it again. *
But keep in mind that this is the percentage of injury and death from abortion. The rates of injury, infertility, and death from pregnancy are much higher.
*Do you have any specific statistics?*
"The risks and effects are glossed over by abortion clinics because they do not care for women, they care for profit. I came into possesion of an internal memo from the local abortion clinic. It said that the anesthesiologist was quitting because she couldn't take it anymore. It said, and I swear to you that this is the truth, that they would have to do without anesthesia and "if the girls can't hold still they would have to send them home". They would not temporarily stop doing abortions, they would not stop bringing in the money, even if it meant that the women went through severe pain. What is pro-woman about this kind of exploitation?"
Surely you, a person who cares so much about fetuses and women and who say this with your very own eyes reported this to the authorities? I know I would, regardless of my postion. Anyone who would make so callous a comment should not be working in reprodcutive healthcare!
*I was still a minor (16) at the time. I turned the note over to my parents, who handled it from there. I do not know if those same people are working there. I believe they got a new doctor, but cannot say for sure*
"Thank you for your letter. You have never written to me in a rude or irrational manner, and it has not gone unnoticed. We may disagree on many things, but you have my respect."
Thank you very much.
*Thank you for your reply*
QuietRiot
Your memory is somewhat correct. I did say that it was biologically human and alive (as opposed to dead and of another species.) but, I also said, that being human and alive are irrelevant, since this applies to all human cells. Also, the term "child" is incorrect. A child is a human between birth and adulthood, technically. Calling a fetus a child is incorrect unless this is a term of affection.
*Human and alive does apply to all the cells of the mother's body, but a fetus, while in the mother's womb, is not part of her. It has unique genetic makeup. It will develop distinct fingerprints. The fetus is individual and distinct from the mother. I prefer to use "child" rather than "fetus" because to me "fetus" seems too clinical and hypothetical.*
You and I have VERY different views about responsibility.
I, personally, beleive that true responsibility involves handling a situation with logic, thinking of the best interest of all invloved. Solving a problem or correcting a past mistake realistically. In some cases, it would be irresponsible for a woman to give birth to a child, but ultimately, the decision is up to her.
Many argue fetal bodily domain, but in this case, it is irrelevant. The person (assuming a fetus is such) who first violated another's bodily domain is the one who has lost theirs. (ie: A rapist cannot take legal action against a woman who injured him defending herself from him.)
*The fetus violated the woman's bodily domain? How can that be, when she and her boyfriend were the ones who PUT it there? Unless it somehow entered her body some other way?*
I also do not understand why a woman should lose her bodily domain by having consentual sex. First of all, that is blatant discrimination on the basis of sex. Second, she consented to her partner's use of her body, and not any zygote/embryo/fetus that may result. Thirdly, she consented to sex, not getting pregnant. When you get into a car and drive, you do not consent to being in an accident. I don't see how this is cause to take away the option of removing the fetus.
*When you get into a car, you do not consent to the accident, but you do understand that you may get into one. You know that a collision MAY be a possible outcome of your desicion to drive, but decide that it is an acceptable risk. People who engage in casual sex may not concent to a conception, but it is another possible outcome of their desicion, and the risk is taken. How is that sex discrimination? *
And that sounds awfully like you want to punish the women for consent to sex and/or contraceptive failure, anyway. What would you say in the case of rape? That fetus is still the same as any other, remember. It's also still forced incubation when you deny the woman the right or ability to remove it.
*I have already given my position on abortion because of rape on the forum. I consider that argument a smokescreen. First of all, exactly what defines "rape"? I have heard of women who start out the evening looking for consentual affairs, but than halfway through the act, change their mind and then call it "rape". Or how about the women who sleep with sports players while they are high/drunk and then sue for "rape"? Not only are the body;s physiological responses capable of preventing conception, but hospitals can remove the semen to prevent conception. *
"I am against abortion not only because of the unborn child, but because I have seen firsthand the suffering the women go through when they go into the clinic."
In what situation? Were you working, specifically, with women who were having trouble after and during their abortion? That would be a bit of a biased viewpoint. Where did you see these things?
And since you've seen them firsthand, why didn't you say so on the group forum? Before, you told me that you only assumed that abortion was traumatic for women.
*The women, rather girls, that were going in ther were usually very distressed. sometimes they would talk, sometimes they just listen for a moment. One does not need to be a phsycologist to read their faces. I don't want to fillet myself on the forum. I'm not there to talk about me unless it is relevant. I speak more freely with you because you debate well, and are not just sporting for a fight. I have more respect for you.*
"I have seen young girls in tears, practically being dragged in by boyfriends or family."
Well, that's not pro-choice. I am dreadfully sorry that you had to see these young women lose their reproductive rights at the hands of people who should have been supportive of their wishes. A good abortion/women's healthcare provider also provides counseling and refuses to do abortions on women who may be unwilling. (Planned Parenthood does this.)
*Really? Can you show me where it says this in their policy?*
"Accidents such as perforating the uterus or infection have left women sterile, so they can never have children when they do want them. I have seen hundreds of women's names, all killed by "safe and legal" abortion (And that is just what the clinics document for the state. Many abortion related deaths are not reported as such). "
Again, I'd like to know just where you saw these things.
If you saw them personally, why did you not report the clinic(s) where you saw this and have them sued for malpractice or shut down? No healthcare provider is allowed to just get away with things like that.
I have not worked inside an abortion clinic. However, The clinic is sponsored by PP and abortion clinics are nearly untouchable because PP plays the legal system like a violin. I will forward you the list of names. I will have to find it again. *
But keep in mind that this is the percentage of injury and death from abortion. The rates of injury, infertility, and death from pregnancy are much higher.
*Do you have any specific statistics?*
"The risks and effects are glossed over by abortion clinics because they do not care for women, they care for profit. I came into possesion of an internal memo from the local abortion clinic. It said that the anesthesiologist was quitting because she couldn't take it anymore. It said, and I swear to you that this is the truth, that they would have to do without anesthesia and "if the girls can't hold still they would have to send them home". They would not temporarily stop doing abortions, they would not stop bringing in the money, even if it meant that the women went through severe pain. What is pro-woman about this kind of exploitation?"
Surely you, a person who cares so much about fetuses and women and who say this with your very own eyes reported this to the authorities? I know I would, regardless of my postion. Anyone who would make so callous a comment should not be working in reprodcutive healthcare!
*I was still a minor (16) at the time. I turned the note over to my parents, who handled it from there. I do not know if those same people are working there. I believe they got a new doctor, but cannot say for sure*
"Thank you for your letter. You have never written to me in a rude or irrational manner, and it has not gone unnoticed. We may disagree on many things, but you have my respect."
Thank you very much.
*Thank you for your reply*
QuietRiot
Whole other can of worms to open tomorrow. Well, you know, the same can...
Plan so far:
Okay, so dead skin cells and hair are not alive. Every other cell is. The sperm and zygote are alive. Even so, there is more to being human than being alive and having 46 unique chromosomes. Identical twins have the same DNA, are they one person?
Calling a fetus a baby can be interpreted as an appeal to emotion and when you're speaking seriously, it's best to stick to serious, scientific langauge.
The woman consented to HER PARTNER using her body, not the fetus. Even so, consent can be withdrawn at any time. She did not "put it there", it was a biological process beyond her control. Why must she be a slave to her biology?
Sex discrimination: Man keeps bodily domain after sex. Woman loses.
Currently have no response to car analogy.
Utterly disgusted at her insensitivity towards rape victims.
"Not only are the body;s physiological responses capable of preventing conception, but hospitals can remove the semen to prevent conception." 1. Untrue. Burden of proof. 2. Not always effective or accessable. Just because most women are not raped, you will punish the few who ********. Can't find proof that PP offers counseling and refuses abortions on the unwilling.
She's being a coward. I'll acknowledeg that I know she was a sidewalk counselor, and when you scream at people, they typically panic and cry.
Take legal action anyway, you cowardly b***h.
Yes, b***h, I do have a few statistics. I need to find them. Gah.
Being a minor is no excuse. Did you even TALK to your parents?
What the ******** was she doing as a sidewalk counselor at sixteen?! She's been brainwashed her whole life?!
How does a ******** sixteen-year-old get ahold of such a document?!
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