You are wrong.

[Monergism]

This topic has gone a bit to far without having a correct exegesis for the Christian Conservative position on abortion. Which leaves me the job to do so. I will present my thesis soon so don't go off saying that the arguments are confirmed.  

[AthenaArros]

BeeVee28

...And for gay people, the one that confuses me, since they have no choice but adultery since they can't get married...

You know, they actualy can get married. I can see that you mean that gay marriage is not allowed, but they can still get married. They are choosing not to marry a member of the opposite sex.  

[Monergism]

The key passage in the hotly contested debate over the destruction of the human embryo or fetus is Exodus 21:22-25. Even in the early church it is possible to cite contrary opinions on the issue of abortion. Thus Norman Anderson will appeal to Gregory of Nyssa, a fourth-century church father, who remarked, "It would not be possible to style the unformed embryo a human being, but only a potential one¾assuming that it is completed so as to come forth to human birth, while as long as it is in this unformed state it is something other than a human being." [S1] On the other hand, the church condemned abortion in the first part of the second century in the Didache (ii.2). The Apostolic Constitutions warned, "Thou shalt not slay the child by causing abortion, nor kill that which is begotten; for everything that is shaped, and has received a soul from God, if it be slain shall be avenged as being unjustly destroyed, Ex. 21:23" (8, 3). Tertullian in his Apologeticum (9) concurred: "To hinder a birth is merely a speedier man-killing; nor does it matter whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that is coming to birth. That is a man which is going to be one; you have the fruit already in its seed." [S2]

Is the fetus a human being or is it not? There is the key question¾and there are not a great many biblical texts to help us. Traditionally, biblical scholars have pointed to such evidences as both Jeremiah and Paul being known and called by God for their life's work while they were still in the womb (Jer. 1:4-6; Gal. 1:15); and God personally fashioning each individual in the womb as Job and the psalmist contend.

"Your hands shaped me and made me. Will you now turn and destroy me? Remember that you molded me like clay. Will you now turn me to dust again? Did you not pour me out like milk and curdle me like cheese, clothe me with skin and flesh and knit me together with bones and sinews? You gave me life and showed me kindness, and in your providence watched over my spirit." (Job 10:8-12)

David, in agreement with Job, sang:

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praised you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (Ps. 139:13-16) [S3]

These texts, along with Job 3:11 and Luke 1:39-44 may be cited to indicate that God considers the fetus fully human. But Exodus 21:22-25 is even more definitive in its regard for the sanctity of unborn life.

How is the fetus regarded in the covenant code law? In the two cases presented in the Exodus 21:22-25 law. Case A in verse 22 has been widely held as being nothing more than a miscarriage for which an appropriate compensation is sought. Case B in verses 22 and 23, on the other hand, involves not only the loss of the fetus, but of the mother also and is therefore a capital case with the talion formula of "life for life."

But this construction of the law will not stand up to the scrutiny of the text. In the first place, "there is absolutely no linguistic justification for translating verse 22 to refer to a miscarriage." [S4] The Revised Standard Version, Berkley Version, New American Bible, Jerusalem Bible, Amplified Bible, Douay-Rheims, Moffatt and Goodspeed translations and numerous commentaries such as the Broadman, Wesleyan, Wycliffe, New Bible Commentary, Beacon Bible Commentary, and Interpreter's Bible Commentary are all in gross error in referring to a miscarriage here. [S5] The text literally reads "so that her children go [or come] out." The New American Standard Version says "so that her fruit depart." The verb is , meaning "to go (or) come out" and the noun is the regular word for "child" () with the only irregularity being that the noun (and hence, by agreement, the verb) is in the plural. The use of the term "child" makes it clear that a human being is in view here; the plural is generic to cover the contingency of multiple births or either sex. [S6] In fact, the Hebrew does have a word for miscarriage that is not used in Exodus 21:22-25, namely , "to be bereaved [of children], or to be childless." This root in the piel participle is used as a substantive meaning "abortion" (, 2 Kings 2:21). Not only is this verb used of the sterile land and vines (2 Kings 2:19; Mal. 3:11) and animals which are caused to abort or experience an abortion (Gen. 31:38; Job 21:10), but it is also used of women who miscarry in Exodus 23:26: "And none will miscarry or be barren in your land"; and Hosea 9:14:

"Give them, O Lord what will you give them? Give them wombs that miscarry and breasts that are dry."

Moreover, the verb "to come out" is used in every case except one (Num. 12:12, it is used for a stillborn child) for the birth of an ordinary child. [S7]

Most of this evidence is now being conceded by those who previously had adopted the case for miscarriage. But the penalty clauses is another source of misunderstanding, for some interpret Case A as necessitating only a pecuniary penalty while Case B calls for the talion principle. This would seem, then, to suggest to some that the fetus of Case A is less human!

Meredith Kline, however, has argued that does not denote a process of assessment based, as in extrabiblical legislation, on the age of the fetus. Rather, he notes that in every context [S8] where, what he takes to be an adjectival form ( with an enclitic ), is used, it deals with "an offense of a most serious nature. In fact, the meaning could well be liability to death." [S9] The preposition is the bêth of equivalence that, interestingly enough, is also used in the talion formula in Deuteronmy 19:21 to replace the more usual : "a life as an equivalent of a life." Kline concludes, "Hence, bpllym in Exod. 21:22 may be regarded as an archaic legal formula expressing the same principle of ransoming a forfeited life that is more fully expressed in Exod. 21:30." [S10] The suggested translation for verse 22 according to Kline would be "he must pay for his forfeited life" or "he must pay as one deserving of death (or retribution)."

Feticide, we conclude, is indeed murder, and only when the fetus presents a danger to the life of the mother should abortion be considered at all. The lex talionis refers to both cases: when harm () is done to either the child or the mother. But, in spite of Kline's moving discussion of , the contrast in verses 22-23 would appear to be between those instances when no damage has come to either mother or child (v. 22) and where damage has come to mother, child, or both (v. 23). The contrast is:

"And no harm occurs" (v. 22)

and

"And if harm occurs" (v. 23)

The value that God sets on the fetus can be seen from the text we quoted earlier from Psalm 139:16. The clause is "your eye saw my unformed body (i.e., my embryo)" . [S11] God, it was then, who "knit me together in my mother's womb" (Ps. 139:13; cf. Job 10:18 ) and knew me in my prenatal state (Jer. 1:4-5). The value and worth of the forming child is clearly established.

Footnotes: ------------------------------------------------------------

S1. Anderson, Issues of Life, 76-77, citing from "Adversus Macedonianos," trans. from Library of Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers, Series 2, ed. H. Wace and P. Schaff (Oxford, 1839) 5:320.
S2. All three of these quotes were cited by Rushdoony, Biblical Law, 265. See his footnote 6 on p. 265 for six other church fathers on this same question who concur with the judgments expressed in these three.
S3. On these verses, see Donald R. Glenn, "An Exegetical and Theological Exposition of Psalm 139," in Tradition and Testament: Essays in Honor of Charles Lee Feinberg, ed. John S. and Paul D. Feinberg (Chicago: Moody, 1981), 170, 174-78.
S4. Cottrell, "Abortion," 604.
S5. Cottrell, "Abortion," 603.
S6. Kline, "Lex Talionis," 198-99.
S7. Cottrell, "Abortion," 604.
S8. See besides Exod. 21:22; Job 31:11, 28; Deut. 32:31.
S9. Kline, "Lex Talionis," 195.
S10. Kline, "Lex Talionis," 195-96.
S11. Cf. the Armaic word "shapeless mass." See Glenn, "Exposition of Psalm 139," 186, n. 99.  

[Uncouth_Youth]

zz1000zz

This guild seems nearly dead, but maybe i will get some response from this.

Being gay is not a sin. Having sex before marriage is not a sin. Having wanton sex with many women outside of marriage is not a sin. Having an abortion is not a sin.

Many of you disagree. I challenge you to show me wrong. I challenge you to show me biblical passages showing how i am wrong. I have responded in several topics in which i made each of these claims, yet i have had no response that disagreed with me. Nobody has even attempted to show me i am wrong.

Is it possible i am wrong, and each of these are truly sins? I suppose so. However, until they are shown to be sins, i must assume they are not. Indeed, until they are shown to be sins, you are the ones sinning, by saying they are. After all, using your own morals as God's morals is disgusting and sinful.

So feel free to show me i am wrong. Feel free to explain why sex outside of marriage is wrong. But if you cannot do so, do not say it is a sin.

(In regards to homosexuality, it would probably be best to leave that debate to the sticky in the D&D subforum. For now, it should suffice to say that there is a great deal of controversy on the topic, and none of the posters here are qualified to say their view is the "truth.")

oh u poor poor misguided soul.



here:
* 1 Corinth. 6:9
*1 Tim 1:10
* 1 corinth 6: 12-20
*Genesis 19
* Leviticus 18


i used the New Living Translation. Which is the study bible.
But honestly, u need to stop. Ur fight against christian beliefs on homosexuality. U sound like a little child. neutral  

[Uncouth_Youth]

there are so many scritpures on sexual sin that i don't need to list them. Just read proverbs. Soloman had it down pat 3nodding and keep going until u get to the teachings of peter in the NT....  

[Berezi]

Moppytop

there are so many scritpures on sexual sin that i don't need to list them. Just read proverbs. Soloman had it down pat 3nodding and keep going until u get to the teachings of peter in the NT....

Umm...don't put so much faith in Solomon's "having it down pat" with understanding sexual sin. You're saying that of one of the greatest lechers in all the Bible. He was so enamored with women and sex that he had over 700 wives/concubines, and they ended up being his downfall.

But his teachings on it are great. He just didn't live them so well.

Also, please don't go calling people misguided just because they don't believe things in your way of thinking. The person who you quoted isn't a Christian and shouldn't be expected to hold to the same moral patterns you do. You can correct, in fact you should correct, but you don't have to be patronizing (and I'm well aware I'm not doing such a nice job of that myself).  

[promised_child]

soddom and gammora were destroyed for the rampant homosexuality in the cities. the catalyst was when the MEN of the cities came to Lots house saying "send out the men you brought to your house (which were the angels the Lord sent to ultimitally determin whether or not to destroy the cities) so that we may have sex with them."

Quote:

Genesis 19
Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed
1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning."
"No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."
3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."

9 "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

12 The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it."

14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters. He said, "Hurry and get out of this place, because the LORD is about to destroy the city!" But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.

15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished."

16 When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the LORD was merciful to them. 17 As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, "Flee for your lives! Don't look back, and don't stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!"

18 But Lot said to them, "No, my lords, please! 19 Your servant has found favor in your eyes, and you have shown great kindness to me in sparing my life. But I can't flee to the mountains; this disaster will overtake me, and I'll die. 20 Look, here is a town near enough to run to, and it is small. Let me flee to it—it is very small, isn't it? Then my life will be spared."

21 He said to him, "Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of. 22 But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it." (That is why the town was called Zoar. )

23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.

29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.