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we don't feel important or vital or anything, that's not it at all. it's the fact that we have so much in life, we have chances, choices, opportunities. you cannot honestly tell me that you wish you had been aborted, that you wish that you had never existed. if that is the case, then honestly, why bother to keep living if life is, in your eyes, not worth it?

I just don't see the idea of what they might have been as something that can be taken away (this is turning into a ED subforum topic eek so maybe we should move the talk there? not sure, as I really don't wish to upset anyone, but I also do enjoy talking about this with you) Perhaps if my mother hadn't married my ex-step-father and I hadn't been abused, I might have gone on to cure cancer. Perhaps if my mother had never had children, she would have become the CEO of Viocom or a serial killer. Potential is such a slippery thing, it is hard to pin down what could have happened.

I don't believe in killing myself, even if I do not believe my life to be worth having happened. And really, I'm no longer very unhappy with my life, I just feel that my mother would have been better off without becoming a parent, and that with the amount of pain and suffering I've been through, I might well have been better off to have never have existed in the first place.

And really, I'm quite happy that I have divineseraph on my ignore list, because I find asking people why they haven't killed themselves rather offensive, and implying that one should commit suicide is both quite rude and very, very wrong. Had I seen something like that at a harder time in my life, it is quite likely that I would have tried and suceeded to end my own life. Really, I see no reason to encourage anyone, no matter how much they claim to hate their own existance, to end their lives. Especially in a place that is supposed to be FOR LIFE. I don't know if comments can be removed in Guilds, but if they can I would recomend that comment for removal, or if they can't I would strongly suggest that the poster of that comment change it. Advocating suicide, which I do feel it does, is never a good idea.

I can sort of see what you are getting at though, I.Am. By aborting someone, you are not allowing them to ever truly experience life, and who knows if they might have had some wonderful existance. At least, I think that is what you are trying to say?

I believe that the nervous system begins to develope starting at the tenth week of pregnancy (most abortions for non-medical reasons are done before the eleventh week). So while one can't say that all abortions are done while the fetus can't feel or can't feel much, many are done before it is capable of feeling (not attempting to justify anything, and the fetus is still alive so I can understand how people would be against abortion regardless of if the fetus can feel pain when it happens).

If it hadn't been quoted, I wouldn't have seen that. *shrugs* There are about three people in this Guild (and about the same number in the PCG) who are on my ignore list because I just don't want to see their usually angry posts, which is probably better for my health.

I can honestly say that most people in here are very kind to me, even though I happen to feel differently than they do on this important issue. That ^ sort of comment is by far not the norm, or even condoned by most members in here.

@Waters: It's not that I condone suicide, I just believe that if someone's life is really so horrible that they don't want to live it, they can find a way not to. I don't think they should, but I do think that, if that's the way they really feel, they will. And if they don't then, honestly, they really don't think that life is quite that bad. Or they aren't idiots and understand that life is in flux and doesn't stay bad. Usually.

Also, I'm not saying that they might live a wonderful life. But any life at all, compared to no life, is good to me. I would rather be alive then dead; That's why I would not commit suicide. Because life may suck, but if I'm dead, who knows what happens? If religions are correct, then, as a suicide, I could end up in Hell. Or I could end up on a worse off part of the reincarnation wheel. And if they are wrong... It's over. I may no longer be in pain or discomfort, but I will also never have a chance of getting past it. You said yourself that youhad a period of time where you might have committed suicide, but you are past it. That right there shows me that you know that the bad times do not always last.

I really do find the argument of "It'll have a horrible life" to be a despisable one. If it's born and wants to end it's life, it can do that on it's own. But who are you to say, "It'll have a horrible life and will hate it?" Who are you to assume that the child will not be able to get the possible bad times and live a great life? Everyone's life has ups and downs; Some have more ups, some have more downs. But who are you to deny them any of the ups, regardless of how many downs they might have?

Just because the net result is "terrible life," by our definition of it, doesn't mean that it's a life not worth living.

There's also the argument that it is a sliding scale; Just because I feel that the life of a hobo sucks doesn't mean that I have the right to go out and kill all hobos. Just because I feel that the living conditions in Africa suck doesn't mean that we have the right to nuke them and start over. And just because I think that their living conditions suck doesn't mean that they would rather not be alive.

Lastly, I -could- delete his post, but I don't see it as against ToS or guild rules; It's an understandable position.

There is a large difference between caring about dying now, and not wishing to commit suicide, and caring about never really existing in the first place.

And, because I just love justifying myself wink in here:
My life has not been easy, not that anyone's is. If I were to have ended it, I would have done so at age 15, when it was literally about the worst it could get (if you care to know why, I've said so a few times in the Debate, or of course you can PM me). I feel it would be stupid for me to kill myself after living through Hel and all of the pain and suffering I've stuggled though, since my life is significantly better now (other than having the flu, it's pretty good at the moment). But if I were given the option to never have existed in the first place, to not have to have lived though the abuse and torture that I lived through, I would take it. This is why I would rather have been aborted (along with the fact that I believe my mother would be better off if she had not choosen to have children, especially given the amount of times she has said that having children ruined her life) but am not going to end my life now.

That is it. Fin. This discussion has gotten more than ED Subforum worthy, and if you care to know anymore, PM me.