While I understand your personal connection to the back story, it still doesn't seem to be too relevant to the plot you were initially planning. I can see how his old marriage may affect his romance in the story, but that could have easily been mentioned at a better time. I think if anything, the back story could be spread out, with his first back story cut short to only his career and maybe a short mention of what lead him to change jobs, then to what he was working on. The rest could be cut out or spread around to where it would apply to the current situation. However, that's just what I would personally try.
I'm not sure what you mean by the pacing... the back story, to me, brings the whole pacing of the story to a halt because it doesn't move the plot forward. Time has been stopped to explain the character's background, which isn't necessarily a bad thing in itself if the information is crucial to understanding what's going on in the current story- I just don't feel that the information conveyed is relevant enough to work in this particularly case. Beyond that, and while the section detailing Tim's back story is a bit shorter than the first part, I had a much harder, slower time getting through it because I didn't find it as important or interesting. It felt kind of like an info-dump. (I'm sorry; I know I'm being really negative about the back story part even knowing that you were personally fond of it. I hope I'm not bothering you too much; it really is just my opinion on it. The writing itself was not bad, it's just the placement and the content that I have a problem with.)
In the normal narrative, you have a relatively quick pace, not dwelling too much on any one thing (which I personally like) and moving the plot forward in (what I think is) a timely manner.
Also, tension comes in many forms. I'm not sure, judging by your reaction, that you meant to convey tension in your writing or that you did it by accident... it could even just be that I'm over-thinking things/picking up on things that aren't actually there simply because it's a new style of writing to me. (Like those Alfred Hitchcock movies. Once people learn that he has all these themes in there, they start trying to pick out and explain everything, even stuff that wasn't actually there or which was unintentional on Alfred's part. Am I making any sense? o.o )
No, you're right about the backstory. It's out of place, and doesn't contribute anything to the narrative. The only thing of relevance would have been the divorce (which would have been mentioned in one of the conversations with Rory's "mother" ). It should be completely pulled.
In regards to the pacing, when I say the background feels better paced, I mean as if it were a separate story. I don't feel like the main story moves particularly quick (or maybe I felt it was "required reading" to get to the meat). Of course, the irony in that thinking is that, as you said, it is an info dump, and becomes "required reading" in its own right.
Don't worry about harsh criticism. I'm aware of the "kill your darlings" lesson, and though it may seem like I argue, my goal is to get past the first level of revision to something of keepable content. This applies to anything I write.
Yes, I hadn't planned for tension to be present in the writing. I think I know where you're coming from; at lunch today, I tried writing a variant ending (one that didn't involve a semi) and...uh...it's disturbing to write a murder-suicide in the first person, even plural. Really, really, disturbing. Even by writing "we avert our gaze as (murder happens), only looking back when the sound of a chair moving on carpet brings us back to her," I felt uncomfortable.
Gah. gonk It's the first person plural, giving us the feeling, of, well, being there.
Plus, it left her body intact, which I didn't want to do in the original, because it makes her much less human if the only possible way she could have survived was to somehow digitize herself again. That part seemed important to me, because ending on a sorrowful/haunting note appeals to me with the story. Which is why I couldn't resist posting the plans for it.
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:48 pm
LiaThistle
No, you're right about the backstory. It's out of place, and doesn't contribute anything to the narrative. The only thing of relevance would have been the divorce (which would have been mentioned in one of the conversations with Rory's "mother" ). It should be completely pulled.
In regards to the pacing, when I say the background feels better paced, I mean as if it were a separate story. I don't feel like the main story moves particularly quick (or maybe I felt it was "required reading" to get to the meat). Of course, the irony in that thinking is that, as you said, it is an info dump, and becomes "required reading" in its own right.
Don't worry about harsh criticism. I'm aware of the "kill your darlings" lesson, and though it may seem like I argue, my goal is to get past the first level of revision to something of keepable content. This applies to anything I write.
Yes, I hadn't planned for tension to be present in the writing. I think I know where you're coming from; at lunch today, I tried writing a variant ending (one that didn't involve a semi) and...uh...it's disturbing to write a murder-suicide in the first person, even plural. Really, really, disturbing. Even by writing "we avert our gaze as (murder happens), only looking back when the sound of a chair moving on carpet brings us back to her," I felt uncomfortable.
Gah. gonk It's the first person plural, giving us the feeling, of, well, being there.
Plus, it left her body intact, which I didn't want to do in the original, because it makes her much less human if the only possible way she could have survived was to somehow digitize herself again. That part seemed important to me, because ending on a sorrowful/creepy note appeals to me with the story. Which is why I couldn't resist posting the plans for it.
I don't even have to read it to really understand how creepy the plural writing could make a murder scene. o.O It's funny how this is the first time I've ever heard of this style and yet I can already see so much potential in it with a story like this.
I think you're right; it's the fact that it makes us feel that we're actually there that really adds to creepiness. (It's probably why I felt tension even though you didn't intend to write it.) We're there but we aren't at the same time- almost like we're spying on them. sweatdrop Very strange.
(By the way, I never felt like you were arguing or anything and completely understand where you're coming from. I just began feeling a little guilty, thinking that I may have been reinforcing my thoughts on it too much. Sometimes I get carried away.)
I don't even have to read it to really understand how creepy the plural writing could make a murder scene. o.O It's funny how this is the first time I've ever heard of this style and yet I can already see so much potential in it with a story like this.
I think you're right; it's the fact that it makes us feel that we're actually there that really adds to creepiness. (It's probably why I felt tension even though you didn't intend to write it.) We're there but we aren't at the same time- almost like we're spying on them. sweatdrop Very strange.
(By the way, I never felt like you were arguing or anything and completely understand where you're coming from. I just began feeling a little guilty, thinking that I may have been reinforcing my thoughts on it too much. Sometimes I get carried away.)
Well, dammit. I think I have to write this now.
I'm gonna have nightmares about that scene, I'm sure. sweatdrop
(Never feel guilty about harping on something I write. I make semi-regular jokes about tuning my own harp, and I expect as good as I dish - I'm trying to get published, after all.) Also, the inspiration for first person plural: After Dark by Murakami Haruki.
Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:44 am
Guess who finally found some time to hop online and read this? Yes, me. Funny thing is I just got through reading one of my favourite books again, which is in first person plural and reminded me just how much I appreciate the style (and holy s**t, I saw you were inspired with first person plural by the same damn book). Anyway, that kind of got me excited to read this. It actually reminded me to find some time to do so! It’s going to be rather short because I am about to go check on my grandpa, so I hope you don’t hate me for that ;o;
First I am just going to say, typos, typos everywhere, but you did point that out. Anyway, the beginning was rather attention grabbing to the point where I simply had to continue reading. I enjoyed that while Rory is just a program, you portrayed her so well with an air of innocence to human behaviour and the like. Their interaction was...smooth? I think that is a good way to put it, and rather interesting. Although I enjoy the entire use of your similes, I believe they are used a bit too much when it comes to her; though I doubt I can say that to anyone. Overall the first part was masterfully done. You managed to give us a glimpse of the characteristics and the story itself, which were both very intriguing.
Now when me move to the second part of your story it becomes rather stale to the point where I felt a little forced reading it. It kind of felt more like you were trying to give the reader some information, which you know can be important and all, but it kind of just dragged your piece down. The pace at which I started reading this decreased drastically, I didn’t actually want to read his background story, though part of that might be because I am not all that fond of having to read those early on when I am not all that interested in the character itself enough to want to know who exactly he is yet, and from what background he comes. Nonetheless, I did read it. I think you just chose a bad timing to go about doing that. Is it even important? I just don’t see why his current behaviour was explained by anything within the back story at all.
After that part was over I was finally able to get back into it, and now I am running out of time to give you my thoughts. Towards the end my attention was straying again, but I still think you did quite a fantastic job on this approach and I did find myself liking it. I am rather glad you found this again and uploaded it! Now off I go to gramps.
You've read After Dark, too? You're the first other person I know of who's read it, yay! For me, it was, oh, six years ago? Probably enough time that I've forgotten how most of it went. Still, awesome.
Yeah, sorry about the typos. There were definite areas where I wasn't checking my typing as much, sorry. I've fixed most of 'em in my working copy, but haven't gotten to tense changes, or the massive background deletion. Or, ya know, fixing more than once instance where I have a bunch of text scratched out, but the resulting sentence is not a complete sentence. sweatdrop
I used too many similies? Oopsies. I'll look over that.
Remove background info dump. On it.
Your attention was waning? Hmm...suggestions as to how I can fix that? I keep coming back to Guy wanting to to experiment with Rory and see what she does, and the pseudo moral debate following that.
Also, might I have your thoughts on the potential for a murder/suicide scene using this style? emotion_kirakira
...that smiley following that sentence is awkward.
Also, is your gramps doing okay?
Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:05 am
That scene, first draft.
Daniel opens the door, sweeping a gesture to welcome and ushering Rory into the room. She gives a shy smile and a tipped head as thanks, and steps in.
The room is nice, with an elevated view of the city laid out before them. The window is more of a glass wall with the heavy curtains typical in most hotels. The bed - of which there is only one - is king size, but otherwise unremarkable. The walls are partially papered, with the other portions painted a pleasantly light hue of brown. For the state in which the property rests, it is far from a low quality room.
Rory walks to the window as their bags are delivered and unpacked, gazing without empathy on the city's corporate workers and revelers who are out at this time. Neither she nor Daniel say anything until the last of their items are in the room. We manage to catch that Daniel doesn't even tip the help.
When the door closes, Rory moves from the window to the cooler, opening it and wrapping her hand around the neck of one of the bottles. "Daniel," she coos, "What shall we start with?"
He comes over from the coat rack where he is hanging his suit jacket. As he opens his mouth to answer, she lifts the bottle and swings it into his face. He falls with the force of the impact, giving a fleshy thud as he lands on his side. Rory sets the bottle down and opens up the box where the utensils have been packed, searching for something.
We are not given much time to wonder, as she takes from it the small knife that was packed for the cheese. She approaches the body, and kneels over it. Setting the knife down, she checks for a pulse, placing two fingers on his neck. If he still has one, she gives us no clue in her expression.
She moves his head down towards his chest, then picks up the knife again. Quickly, she stabs the side of his throat, and then re-checks his pulse, this time, using his arm. After a moment, she appears satisfied, and moves down to get his wallet. From it, she fishes out a few bills, mostly twenties, and tosses the wallet aside.
She goes over to the desk, and in curiosity, we move closer when she picks up a pen and the pad of paper. She writes:
"My apologies for the mess; it is entirely my fault. Please accept this tip for the troubles you will endure to clean it."
Tearing off the sheet, she places it on top of the money we saw her lift. She folds her hands in her lap, and her eyes unfocus in what we know to be her accessing the internet.
Momentarily, we see her eyes return to normal. Then, they unfocus again. Nearly instantly after this second loss of focus, her body stops moving. We listen, but there are no sounds from the room. We watch, but we see no sign of her chest moving with breath.
There is nothing left for us to observe until the police arrive, so we leave the room with one body on the floor, and the other staring, dispassionately unforgiving, into the reflection of herself in the mirror.
My initial thoughts:
It stinks. Maybe it's because I've been thinking about it for several days now, but it doesn't have any sort of creepery or discomfort to me. I don't feel like it has substance in the slightest, and the ending is not only far from haunting, but weak. The epilogue will almost be skipped, because the reader won't care.
I've tried to remove all spelling and grammar errors from this, so hopefully you won't see any.
So, goals: I need suggestions on how to make it stick. I want nightmares from this. Well, I don't, but I do, if you understand. The above...is mild. Better than a semi, but not something I'd call "good" or even "good enough." I want it to stick out, stay with you for a week or a month, that sort of power.
Help me, dammit! xd
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Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:16 am
Kairi Nightingale
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Talia Delune
Quoting you three because you've expressed some level of interest in the story. Above, you'll find the murder scene I've mentioned, in its first draft form. It needs help, badly.
If you don't want to weigh in, I understand. If you think it's trash without a complete re-write, I understand that, too. If you don't want to read the plot spoiler, that's fine, too. If you don't have time thanks to the Fluffs but still want to give it a shot, say so, and I'll requote you after the event is over.
Anyone else who wants to help/chime in, feel free!
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:13 am
LiaThistle
Murakami is one of my favourite Authors. After Dark was rather brilliant with the play on the characters and the event of it all being in one night played perfectly. Actually, his book (Kafka on the Shore) managed to snag the spot of my third favourite book of all time--knocking Amistad from the spot it has been in for so many years. I barely know of anyone that has read the book either.
I think the experimenting would play nice, especially to the reader since that could be very interesting. I see you've already dabbled using the murder scene (and yes, that smiley really made it awkwardly amusing). Anyway, how long ago did you write this story again? Because I think with this little dabble section you lost part of the tone...? I don't know how to explain it. The scene where she does murder him is fast paced, I give you that, but I don't think it has the effect you want. It doesn't have this suspenseful discomfort when reading it, nor did it really draw anything else from me. I think you could make it more brutal, and yet still have it subtle in the way Rory does it all. But I laughed my a** off at her note, you have no idea. Also, last paragraph was...gripping, more specifically the last line dealing with Rory.
Sorry this is so quick, my mind is really scattering. My great-aunt died as well, and my great-uncle is dying of cancer and has a week left to live. June ******** sucks. My grandpa isn't doing so great, and whenever I go see him, which is pretty much every day, I ask if he is doing a little better and all he ever says is, "My heart is gone." That answers anything I would ask him of his state of being. It just really gets me, every single time. I totally get it too, they've been married for over 50 years.
Murakami is one of my favourite Authors. After Dark was rather brilliant with the play on the characters and the event of it all being in one night played perfectly. Actually, his book (Kafka on the Shore) managed to snag the spot of my third favourite book of all time--knocking Amistad from the spot it has been in for so many years. I barely know of anyone that has read the book either.
I think the experimenting would play nice, especially to the reader since that could be very interesting. I see you've already dabbled using the murder scene (and yes, that smiley really made it awkwardly amusing). Anyway, how long ago did you write this story again? Because I think with this little dabble section you lost part of the tone...? I don't know how to explain it. The scene where she does murder him is fast paced, I give you that, but I don't think it has the effect you want. It doesn't have this suspenseful discomfort when reading it, nor did it really draw anything else from me. I think you could make it more brutal, and yet still have it subtle in the way Rory does it all. But I laughed my a** off at her note, you have no idea. Also, last paragraph was...gripping, more specifically the last line dealing with Rory.
Sorry this is so quick, my mind is really scattering. My great-aunt died as well, and my great-uncle is dying of cancer and has a week left to live. June ******** sucks. My grandpa isn't doing so great, and whenever I go see him, which is pretty much every day, I ask if he is doing a little better and all he ever says is, "My heart is gone." That answers anything I would ask him of his state of being. It just really gets me, every single time. I totally get it too, they've been married for over 50 years.
After Dark is the only thing of his I've read. I was reading Murakami Ryo just before - specifically, In the Miso Soup. I probably ought to re-read that before writing the murder scene, since...well...spoiler if you haven't read it.
The original sections of TBD were written around 3 years ago, so I'm not surprised I lost some of the tone. It's also later in the story, where the tone should be (as much as possible) closer to the vernacular. Though, where Rory uses the bottle, I really want to put a sentence with "we" in it to push the reader more in. I just can't figure out what.
And yes, it is lacking. That's my big problem with it; there's almost no emotional response. Sure, some might get built up if D.Forester was more than a name, a non-tipping jerk, and a target, but I doubt it would be enough.
I changed the last line once before posting...instead of "herself" it initially read "itself." While doing a proofread for grammar and spelling before posting, I felt that attaching a gendered word would make her more human. I'm surprised it had any effect. That line was one of my big disappointments in the scene. While I'm ragging on that line, I really want to split it into two sentences, so Rory's stare can have more impact. Perhaps:
Binary Dryad
There is nothing left for us to observe until the police arrive, so we leave the room. One body is on the floor, his slit throat letting blood onto the carpet. The other stares, dispassionately unforgiving, into the reflection of herself in the mirror.
No, that just doesn't quite...have oomph. I need to play with it more.
I'm not too sure about how to make it more brutal. While I harp on avoiding the semi style kill, I'm failing to find a realistic style kill. Yes, she's in the south, so guns are a'plenty, but that seems even more cold than the bottle/knife combination. She can't strangle him, because she doesn't have the arm strength. Pushing him down stairs or ramming him into something isn't terribly viable (though I suppose she could try to shove him into the TV screen). Out the window seems out of her strength probability, too. Ideas, anyone?
Lastly, I'm sorry to hear about your family situation. Do you have someone to hug, or lean on?
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:39 pm
My computer recently died so I'm not going to be on much until I get a new one. I'd be happy to read the murder scene, but I would like to wait until after my new computer comes in since the one I'm now borrowing is annoying to use, having a habit of screwing up my messages. >.< Sorry!
My computer recently died so I'm not going to be on much until I get a new one. I'd be happy to read the murder scene, but I would like to wait until after my new computer comes in since the one I'm now borrowing is annoying to use, having a habit of screwing up my messages. >.< Sorry!
Take your time; neither it nor I am planning on going anywhere.
Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:36 pm
If I am allowed to say something...
Well first off, it's been a few hours since I read this piece. I found myself looking over it this morning, and now as evening over takes me, I am trying to remember everything I set out to say. sweatdropcat_razz
I feel (for those of you who must argue the I feel phrase, "I think") that for parts of the story the use of plural actually did add to the story, but in parts of the work it was distracting and made it more of a struggle. The topic it self is an interesting concept. It's great that you decided to write on it.
My final statement is that personally when thinking of how a story should flow, I think of just that flowing. This piece almost seems to jerk readers in a rough and sometimes hard to follow way. I'm not saying that slowing the action down for a moment is always a bad thing, if the story stays at one speed the whole time, or follows the same pattern readers will also become bored. However, it seems to take off in a direction, and suddenly slow and drag out, and then pick up again.
At this point I have no idea if my comment made sense as it it way too late to be thinking. However, if I don't post something now I'll forget to do it. I am only trying to be helpful, so I apologize if this is more than you would like for a critique. Thank you for being willing to share your work with us. It was an enjoyable read, and a great way to spend a morning. Now if you'll excuse me, I should be getting some shut eye. emotion_zzz
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Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:15 am
Artica635
If I am allowed to say something...
Well first off, it's been a few hours since I read this piece. I found myself looking over it this morning, and now as evening over takes me, I am trying to remember everything I set out to say. sweatdropcat_razz
I feel (for those of you who must argue the I feel phrase, "I think") that for parts of the story the use of plural actually did add to the story, but in parts of the work it was distracting and made it more of a struggle. The topic it self is an interesting concept. It's great that you decided to write on it.
My final statement is that personally when thinking of how a story should flow, I think of just that flowing. This piece almost seems to jerk readers in a rough and sometimes hard to follow way. I'm not saying that slowing the action down for a moment is always a bad thing, if the story stays at one speed the whole time, or follows the same pattern readers will also become bored. However, it seems to take off in a direction, and suddenly slow and drag out, and then pick up again.
At this point I have no idea if my comment made sense as it it way too late to be thinking. However, if I don't post something now I'll forget to do it. I am only trying to be helpful, so I apologize if this is more than you would like for a critique. Thank you for being willing to share your work with us. It was an enjoyable read, and a great way to spend a morning. Now if you'll excuse me, I should be getting some shut eye. emotion_zzz
I don't object to more critiques. The more, the better.
On that note, anything specific? The bios have been recommended to be pulled, so they're gone. What else can be improved?
