Okay, so I'll just answer some of the chowder questions first...
1. What are ESP cards?
ESP Cards are a deck of cards with 5 symbols on them instead of numbers. Its an exercise in psychic ability. The reason they are mentioned is because it is a mental discipline which takes focus to achieve and exercises the mind.
2. If genin only have one vision type, why is there a system mentioning how many times they can change? Or is that simply referring to switching between regular and enhanced vision?
Any switch, either from regular sight to special, or special back to regular counts as a 'shift' ... so at max, someone could shift from regular, to special, to regular, to special, and back to regular before requiring rest. Additionally, once more sights are required, they can shift from one special sight to another special without having to shift back to regular sight.
3. Get rid of the "immunity to genjutsu" clause, or at least rewrite it so that it applies to sight-based genjutsu only.
Can do, I'd be fine with that.
4. What is the chakra cost for each sight? For instance, does keeping stage 1 on cost less per post than stage 4?
A good question, one which was not addressed. I always considered it to have no chakra cost, except for the jutsu themselves. I figured the associated costs of the shifts and the dangers/limitations of using the skills themselves was enough of a cost. However, I would be alright with adding a cost, so long as it's not too major. Maybe 1 chakra point per post, maybe 2 at higher levels... but this should not be a chakra intensive skill.
5. I think they durations should be shorter since most battles would be over before it matters. It wouldnt be much limitation at all.
This bloodline is not really one which has much combat application, but I can see the concern. We can negotiate on the numbers later, I'm just looking for a concept approval first.
6. Kinda weird they get to choose either blindlness or being limited to only one sight.
It is not mentioned, but it is not a choice... it's a 50/50 shot either way.
7. Being able to pick up and track heat and chakra impressions. Mostly this needs to be defined, though it is definitely one of too many abilities...
The heat vision range is not as bad as that. The Ultraviolet one however, does have a longer range. As to your point about too many abilities... the abilities themselves are mostly minor and deal with tracking and identification. I would argue that many smaller abilities are as legitimate (and more interesting) then a few stronger abilities.
8. Overused concept. If it is done well enough, seeing in different light spectrums could prove interesting, but every doujutsu tries to have some form of "seeing through Walls"
This concept is not overused... mainly because it was purposely designed to be VERY different from other Doujutsu. I'm not sure where everyone is getting seeing through walls with X-ray vision... but that's not what it does. The range is limited to an inch or two into an object, allowing them to see through skin to the bone, or through other objects of about the same depth... but it would not go through a wall... unless it was less then an inch or two thick.
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:03 pm
Okay, Stage 1 Questions addressed...
1. How deep is the X-Ray ability? Is it just able to see in about an inch or so, as implied by the human bone bit, or can it see straight through walls and see what's on the other side? Is there any change to the user's sight while this is active, such as not being able to see as far, or vision degrading after passing through a solid object?
The X-ray ability is only about as deep as it would be to see through skin to bone... about 1-2 inches. This depth would apply for ALL objects, but would never allow for a depth greater then 2 inches for soft materials, and one inch for hard materials.
It cannot see through walls... unless they are super thin.
No, the benefits of the visions are integrated into the mind, so it reveals the new aspects of all they can see like an overlay over normal sight. This can be disorienting for beginners, which is why there are post limitations. So, when they use X-ray sight, its not like that is all they see. They can still see everything else they could see before with normal sight.
2. X-Ray: X Ray vision implies the ability to see through walls and stuff, but the only ability listed here is the ability to see on a microscopic level. I think its actually really cool, but I would rename this level "Microscopic Vision", so people don't get the wrong idea.
I answered part of this above. They cannot see through walls, unless they are super thin.
X-ray vision and Microscopic are different aspects. X-ray is the ability to see through things. Microscopic vision is the ability to see very small things. They are separate abilities.
3. Also, exactly HOW microscopic is this sight? Can the user see subatomic particles? Individual atoms?
No, no... subatomic or atomic would be too small. I would say the maximum level of magnification would be 40x... Good Reference
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:24 pm
Now on to Stage 2...
1. How effective is the reduction of blinding effects? Can you look straight at a flash bomb going off with no ill effect?
Yes, this would be the benefit. The idea is that your eyes are covered in an ultraviolet filter, which reduces the brightness of other objects by absorbing the ultraviolet radiation which would normally penetrate and blind your eyes. This simultaneously allows you to detect fluids such as blood, and other such things as if everything were cloaked in black light.
2. Spectromablobagramaphony: This jutsu says you can find out information on an item's special abilities. Does this mean I could, using this, pick up Shinji's sword and tell you all about how it's elemental attacks work? It's an interesting concept if used to, say, analyze a poison, but using it on a custom weapon seems a tad far fetched. Honestly the entire ability is a bit far fetched if the user doesn't already have the background knowledge to explain what they see.
It would be able to tell you that the material the sword is made of is capable of absorbing and channeling chakra. Additionally, if they were familiar with metallurgy, they would be able to identify it on sight, down to its components and ratios.
They need to have the knowledge, so if they want to know a poison, they would need to have some knowledge of such things. For everyday things, they would be able to tell what a cake was made of just by looking at it.
3. "X": Would a regular blacklight be able to reveal the secret mark? Seems like it should. Makes for an interesting information transfer technique.
Yes, I guess it would. Good luck finding a blacklight in the ninja world...
4. Ultraviolet: Spectrophotometry, in it's essence, is the same thing as microsopic vision, only now the user has the bonus of autoknowledge of the compounds they're looking at.
Spectrophotometry and Microscopy are two VERY DIFFERENT things.
Microscopy allows you to see smaller objects magnified.
Spectrophotometry allows you to know the constituent parts of a material via an analysis of how they absorb and reflect light )plus other factors). It has nothing to do with seeing the components.
...yes, the ability is supernatural, giving them a knowledge of what the material is made of and some of it's basic properties, but it is entirely different from seeing a smaller object magnified many times.
5. Exactly how is the "X" made? Do they touch the target? Is it a special chemical viewable only under a UV light? Is it just something you can create by concentrating on an area? Is it instantaneous, or do they have to focus on the same spot for a certain amount of time (as in, the target has to be immobile or slow moving, no mid battle marks)? Hypothetically, if a normal UV light were present, could another person see the mark, or would it only be users of this bloodline? If the latter, Why?
Its an invisible mark that is projected through the air like radiation. I'm okay with it having a maximum range of about 100 ft though, and it can only travel in a straight line. The mark would travel quickly through the air, kind of like a gunshot, so it would be easy to mark someone in battle, or as they were running away, so long as you had a clear shot.
I answered the other part above. Though I would reiterate that finding such a source of UV light would not be that easy in the ninja world. Its not like its even that common in everyday life of our society, which is far more technologically advanced.
6. Why would UV Vision help you when staring at the sun? The Atmopsphere blocks a lot of UV rays, but I imagine staring at the sun would still be enough to make you go blind. Very Minor Point of Course
This was mentioned before, but the screen acts like an ultraviolet filter, both cancelling out brightness, shielding the eyes from the sun or bright flashes... while also revealing things such as body fluids, or ultraviolet marks, such as those one would see under black light.
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:27 pm
Alright, that's enough for now. If my response was enough to satisfy your question, then there is no need to discuss it further.
If you did not agree with me or still have an issue with something, please quote it and speak to each issue separately.
Cobra, you do not dictate when a discussion is over. Unless the entire crew, or myself along with both VC's agree the issue is over, it is not over. This isn't even including the fact I have yet to answer to anything here. If you're going to try and shut discussion down, at the very least attempt to have the captain of the guild answer something.
EDIT:
Eh, I'm gonna edit this solely for harshness. I should not have come down on you as hard considering the responses that have come through, however still you can't just close discussion, at least without enough authority to do so.
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:58 pm
Luo1304
Cobra, you do not dictate when a discussion is over. Unless the entire crew, or myself along with both VC's agree the issue is over, it is not over. This isn't even including the fact I have yet to answer to anything here. If you're going to try and shut discussion down, at the very least attempt to have the captain of the guild answer something.
EDIT:
Eh, I'm gonna edit this solely for harshness. I should not have come down on you as hard considering the responses that have come through, however still you can't just close discussion, at least without enough authority to do so.
Dude, calm yourself down... you have completely misread my post.
...I was not closing the discussion down in any way... I was just saying that I had written enough for the day and that I was finished responding for the time being. I've only answered half of the questions/comments thrown out, but it was a lot, so I took a break.
Clearly there is still much discussion to be had regarding the bloodline. I would have hoped you would have a bit more faith in me then to think I would close a discussion or post something as official after only one rebuttal, with no responses yet.
I simply await responses to my rebuttals above before I begin to handle the last two stages of the bloodline.
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:54 am
Quote:
4. What is the chakra cost for each sight? For instance, does keeping stage 1 on cost less per post than stage 4?
A good question, one which was not addressed. I always considered it to have no chakra cost, except for the jutsu themselves. I figured the associated costs of the shifts and the dangers/limitations of using the skills themselves was enough of a cost. However, I would be alright with adding a cost, so long as it's not too major. Maybe 1 chakra point per post, maybe 2 at higher levels... but this should not be a chakra intensive skill.
I dunno. Seems to me this one works as is without the cost. It's not like Sharingan where you can keep it on forever so long as you have chakra to sustain it. You get a limited time it can be active at all before it fries your eyeballs, and a limited number of times you can even turn it on at all between resting periods. (Does regular sleep reset it, or does it have to be mental exercises?) Perhaps an activation / shift cost, but having a per post fee seems a bit much when using it at all is limited by default. Seriously, this is more limited than the mangekyou for extended usage.
Quote:
6. Kinda weird they get to choose either blindlness or being limited to only one sight.
It is not mentioned, but it is not a choice... it's a 50/50 shot either way.
1. How deep is the X-Ray ability? Is it just able to see in about an inch or so, as implied by the human bone bit, or can it see straight through walls and see what's on the other side? Is there any change to the user's sight while this is active, such as not being able to see as far, or vision degrading after passing through a solid object?
The X-ray ability is only about as deep as it would be to see through skin to bone... about 1-2 inches. This depth would apply for ALL objects, but would never allow for a depth greater then 2 inches for soft materials, and one inch for hard materials.
It cannot see through walls... unless they are super thin.
No, the benefits of the visions are integrated into the mind, so it reveals the new aspects of all they can see like an overlay over normal sight. This can be disorienting for beginners, which is why there are post limitations. So, when they use X-ray sight, its not like that is all they see. They can still see everything else they could see before with normal sight.
2. Spectromablobagramaphony: This jutsu says you can find out information on an item's special abilities. Does this mean I could, using this, pick up Shinji's sword and tell you all about how it's elemental attacks work? It's an interesting concept if used to, say, analyze a poison, but using it on a custom weapon seems a tad far fetched. Honestly the entire ability is a bit far fetched if the user doesn't already have the background knowledge to explain what they see.
It would be able to tell you that the material the sword is made of is capable of absorbing and channeling chakra. Additionally, if they were familiar with metallurgy, they would be able to identify it on sight, down to its components and ratios.
They need to have the knowledge, so if they want to know a poison, they would need to have some knowledge of such things. For everyday things, they would be able to tell what a cake was made of just by looking at it.
5. Exactly how is the "X" made? Do they touch the target? Is it a special chemical viewable only under a UV light? Is it just something you can create by concentrating on an area? Is it instantaneous, or do they have to focus on the same spot for a certain amount of time (as in, the target has to be immobile or slow moving, no mid battle marks)? Hypothetically, if a normal UV light were present, could another person see the mark, or would it only be users of this bloodline? If the latter, Why?
Its an invisible mark that is projected through the air like radiation. I'm okay with it having a maximum range of about 100 ft though, and it can only travel in a straight line. The mark would travel quickly through the air, kind of like a gunshot, so it would be easy to mark someone in battle, or as they were running away, so long as you had a clear shot.
Same response on all of these. Please clarify that in the bloodline. Most of my own questions were on things I was fairly sure of the answer on, but the wording left a bit too much to interpretation, which where things like X-Ray come in, is asking for trouble.
~
Much as I like the jutsu concept, where does Microscopy connect to X-Ray to make it a fitting jutsu for the stage?
Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:10 am
Hinote Tosatsu
4. What is the chakra cost for each sight? For instance, does keeping stage 1 on cost less per post than stage 4?
I dunno. Seems to me this one works as is without the cost. It's not like Sharingan where you can keep it on forever so long as you have chakra to sustain it. You get a limited time it can be active at all before it fries your eyeballs, and a limited number of times you can even turn it on at all between resting periods. (Does regular sleep reset it, or does it have to be mental exercises?) Perhaps an activation / shift cost, but having a per post fee seems a bit much when using it at all is limited by default. Seriously, this is more limited than the mangekyou for extended usage.
This is how I would prefer it... I think there is enough of a cost as is with the number of times it can be used, not to have to suffer from additional chakra costs.
Hinote Tosatsu
Much as I like the jutsu concept, where does Microscopy connect to X-Ray to make it a fitting jutsu for the stage?
X-ray Microscopy is a thing. An X-ray microscope uses electromagnetic radiation in the soft X-ray band to produce images of very small objects. Unlike visible light, X-rays do not reflect or refract easily, and they are invisible to the human eye. Therefore the basic process of an X-ray microscope is to expose film or use a charge-coupled device (CCD) detector to detect X-rays that pass through the specimen.
Its not an exact match, but it fits the bill. Some 'ninja magicky' ability can apply here, but its not totally outside the realm of science to see an object magnified via interactions with X-rays. I've even nerfed it to say 40x, since most X-ray microscopes can magnify aspects of living tissue, such as individual cells.
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Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:22 am
Anyone else have any thoughts on my responses to your questions above? Are we satisfied with what I have put forth?
I'll wait another day or so for responses before addressing the next stages of the bloodline...
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Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:14 pm
Kagura:
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Mind's Eye of the Kagura Medical, Chakra, Sensing
History: The 'Mind's Eye of Kagura' is a technique utilized by the character 'Karin' who displayed several unique and impressive abilities, especially in the realm of chakra sensing and healing abilities. Karin was charged with operating Orochimaru's southern base, located on a small island in the sea. There she made sure Orochimaru's prisoners behaved. She along with Suigetsu were both experimented upon by Orochimaru due to their special abilities. After joining 'Hebi' (Sasuke's organization, later called 'Taka'), Karin used her abilities to help Sasuke achieve his goals and followed him around, while being obsessively infatuated with him.
Description: Karin showed several unique and highly useful jutsu which made her an incredible support to 'Hebi' (or 'Taka'). Using the Mind's Eye of the Kagura, she displayed the ability to detect chakra with incredible accuracy and precision, allowing her to track them over large distances. Karin also displayed a unique healing ability, which after allowing someone to bite her arm, chest or neck, would allow them to suck her chakra out and completely heal themselves. Additionally, she was shown to be able to suppress her own chakra so as to make her nearly impossible to detect.
Requirements: • Must be a medical ninja
Abilities/Skills: • Has excellent Chakra Control. --> [-1 chakra point cost for all jutsu] • Has the ability to "read" chakra, which allows them to distinguish people based on chakra signature alone. • Is able to tell how much chakra someone has, and if they are a Bijuu host. (though they cannot specifically tell which Bijuu) • Able to sense incoming shinobi from a distance and track others. • Can heal almost any injury, except death (for another person) • Able to suppress one's own Chakra to become near invisible. • Slightly increased Healing Factor.
// Bloodline Jutsu //
Jutsu Name: Mind's Eye of the Kagura Jutsu Rank: D Type: Chakra Sensing
Description: This ability allows the user to find, sense, and track individuals through their chakra over vast range. This is done by closing their eyes and opening the mind's eye. The ability extends to telling when a person is lying from the fluctuations in a person's chakra made from dishonest emotions or if someone is under a genjutsu. Also by focusing on a particular chakra they can perceive its location and movement with great detail.
Jutsu Name: Heal Bite Jutsu Rank: D Type: Medical, Healing Description: The user can heal other's wounds by having them bite into their skin and suck out their chakra. In addition to rapidly depleting their chakra reserves, the user is left with a permanent bite mark every time they uses it. Due to this depletion of chakra, it is dangerous for them to use this ability more than once a day.
Jutsu Name: Chakra Suppression technique Jutsu Rank: D Type: Chakra Control
Description: This ability allows the user to suppress their chakra until it is undetectable. This makes it impossible, or at least very difficult, for sensing-type shinobi to track them. The downside of this ability is that since the user is suppressing their chakra, they are unable to use their Mind's Eye of the Kagura.
Clan Head: 1. Axel Hajime 2. 3.
Property of TUP
Alright, I quit being lazy for a couple minutes and compared this to the one we have. While most of the rules are the same, this one is a fair bit better done. I think we can get it workable in a very short time too.
Rules/Abilities:
Quote:
Requirements: • Must be a medical ninja
Abilities/Skills: • Has excellent Chakra Control. --> [-1 chakra point cost for all jutsu] • Has the ability to "read" chakra, which allows them to distinguish people based on chakra signature alone. • Is able to tell how much chakra someone has, and if they are a Bijuu host. (though they cannot specifically tell which Bijuu) • Able to sense incoming shinobi from a distance and track others. • Can heal almost any injury, except death (for another person) • Able to suppress one's own Chakra to become near invisible. • Slightly increased Healing Factor.
I don't think this should be limited to medical. The bloodline has one medical leaning trait, and that trait doesn't mesh in the least with the rest of the bloodline, leading me to believe it was probably a character trait of Karin, not part of the bloodline. Admittedly, the character probably didn't even have a bloodline and was just a strong sensor, but that's not the point.
Most of the bloodline abilities are traits that would be given to any sensor profession we might make as well, but somehow I still want to keep it even with the profession. And without requiring it in the bloodline.
Abilities 2,4, and 6 are all sensor traits that would go to the profession, by way of jutsu. If the profession passes, I'd replace them with the ability to learn sensor jutsu. As is, I'd suggest turning them into jutsu or just giving them a set cost.
Rule 3 should definitely be a jutsu, if it's allowed at all.
5 and 7, I feel should be dropped entirely. The bloodline is a sensor type. Tacking healing on as well just feels odd.
Jutsu:
Mind's Eye: Needs an actual range, and probably rank/cost requirements on the different abilities. I can see this being the jutsu that goes along with all of the rules mentioned, segmented by rank and cost for each effect.
Heal Bite: As stated, I don't think this should be part of the bloodline.
Suppression: This should probably have a time limit and cooldown, and definitely needs to state that you can't use any jutsu while it's active, not just the mind's eye jutsu.
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Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:46 am
Soooo.... you want to keep the bloodline, but remove heal bite... thusly making it a bloodline that gives you a Profession for free, more or less?
...would seem more efficient just to remove the bloodline and change the bloodline into this profession which is being developed.
I mean unless that's what you were aiming for and the bloodline abilities would be a kind of stripped down version of the profession?... I'm confused.
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:38 am
I'd like to keep both, if it turns out to be possible. There's a few reasons, definitely some points against it, but I'd like to try. Giving the bloodline some jutsu the profession wouldn't get by default, such as the ability to "See" chakra signatures without a jutsu, or get a more detailed analysis of a person's chakra, so far as to identify a host as implied by the one rule. Basically making the bloodline a more advanced form of the sensor profession, with some natural abilities tacked on to supplement it.
At the same time I'd like to steer clear of making it a profession specific bloodline. For three main reasons. One, people already utilizing the bloodline would be forced to either change professions, losing whatever path they had initially chosen for their character, or lose the bloodline, with the same result. Two, Bloodlines with professional leanings, but no required connection are a good chance for some character variation. The "Dual Class" some people have been looking for. And I seem to have forgotten number three.
All that said, I think focus should be given to making it a good bloodline, and the decision of what to do about it's relationship to the profession can be made later, when it's more relevant.
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Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:58 am
I kinda have to agree with Cobra on this. If you take away the weird bity bit then it really is just sensor profession. Sure it might have some unique qualities, but the main point is If you restrict it to the sensor profession then the bloodline only makes their abilities slightly better. If you don't restrict it, it would be a bl/cl that is essentially just get an extra, more powerful profession.
It just looks to me like the sensor profession would replace most Kagura benefits. I'm starting to think we should just remove it completely. Those who have it now can just choose sensor or medic, and a different bl/cl (if they want).
Edit: If we wish to introduce dual class/professions then we should introduce dual class/professions. Making individual bloodlines for specific combos is a very sloppy way of doing that. Although we could make multi-classing only available to non clan/bl users.
(See Profession revamp central for discussion on multi-classes)
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:08 am
Hinote and I discussed the idea and I think we came up with some good solutions. By keeping both the Bloodline and the Profession (once it is created), we allow for a greater stratification of Sensors.
The Sensor Profession will allow anyone of any Bloodline or class to be a sensor if they so wish, with all of the Benefits and Skills involved with it.
The Bloodline however will give much of the same, minus the Rank-based benefits, but will be given more specific Bloodline Sensory jutsu which will on the whole make them beteer sensors then the average sensor with the Sensor profession.
...and for the individual who just HAS to be the best, they can take the Bloodline AND choose the profession.
I think this creates a wide range of options for people and I feel like each gives a specific set of advantages so that one isn't more overwhelmingly appealing then another.
Plus, all we'd need to finish the bloodline is to develop the Bloodline specific ninjutsu, which wouldn't be THAT hard.
I mean all-in-all we could just work on both as you mentioned and if for some reason the profession doesn't seem to work, we could drop the profession and keep the bloodline.
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