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 Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 4:10 pm
Jfigu1008 I understand where your coming from now. Mark Driscoll's view on marriage is what some call Complimentarianism. He writes, " Men and women are partners in every area of life and ministry together. Though equal, men and women have complementary and distinct gender roles so that men are to lovingly lead and head their homes like Jesus, and only men can be pastors in the church." Again I do believe there should be complimentary roles, I just don't believe that they should be determined by one's sex. This is where I disagree with him. I would be classified as an Egalitarian by him though I'm not seeing how that is rejecting any sort of structure. There is a structure, just not determined by one's sex but rather by one's abilities and talents. Quote: I guess you can call this the classic family approach. In this day and age, disagreements abound. But apparently there are people who really enjoy this aspect of family life. It's just a way of life for these people. Just a question if I could... why would it be wrong to suggest that you can't be a husband if you don't have a p***s, and a wife if you don't have a v****a? I have no problem with people who enjoy the "classic" family approach. If it works for you great. Sometimes a woman is better suited to run a house or a marriage over a man. Couples that have this set up should not be declared sinful because they aren't adhering to the stereotype. I don't think the capacity to be a leader is determined by one's sex. Quote: Women leadership roles... that's a sticky one. Apparently in the early church, there were some leaders in the church who were women. However, none of them happened to be Priests. I'm kicking myself now because my College Text book observing these things are at home, and alas, I'm here enjoying a salad at Panera. 3nodding If you want, I can get open it up soon and explain what it says! I need to read it anyways... I'm aware that there is little to no evidence for women priest. The establishment of a formal priesthood did not come about until later in Christianity's development. Also most protestants do not adhere to a formal priesthood so I'm not seeing where this is going. But yes you are correct there is a lot of evidence in early Christianity of women in leadership roles, but of course no evidence for women priests. Quote: Just like any Pastor, he will have his weaknesses and strengths. As you and Pseudo-Onkelos said, one of the most important things is to see what seeds are being sown and what fruit is being born in all of this. I wholeheartedly agree. If Christ's name is being proclaimed, and the Holy Spirit is apparently moving and causing people to repent and turn to God, then is it so bad? It's just pointing out where I think he's off so he won't mislead what I think he's off concerning. I believe and think that being a member of the Christian community means that I should speak up when I believe, think, and especially know when a pastor is off on something. I do agree with him that being caring, responsible, and confident should be encouraged in men and women. These traits are necessary for any sort of relationship, especially one with Christ. Quote: My goal isn't to defend Driscoll, but rather be fair to myself and what I know about him. I don't want this to become a "me-vs-you" kind of discussion. I like keeping things friendly. smile Of course biggrin . I've been making sure to try to word myself properly so you wouldn't think that it was turning into that. I'm sorry if I am coming off as too aggressive.
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 10:24 am
I don't really like or dislike Driscol...
He sounds like allot of pastors... actually the majority of pastors.... That I have heard in 30 years... Teaching the things they heard pastors teach when they were young... Taking it as concrete, and expecting everyone else to fall in line... forgetting that there is over 2000 years between the Word Christ taught and the words spewing from their mouth now... Not accounting for mistranslations, misunderstandings, and typos.... Not to mention propaganda that has been incorporated and indoctrinated into the commonly held beliefs of an entire religion...
There are things I like about him, such as telling men to step up, and to quit being stepped on... To be accountable, and to hold accountable... Something women have been being told for the last few decades, while the media has been demonizing men for doing so...
Yet at the same time, I don't like the fact that he is ready to put women 'back in their place' in order for men to be who they are meant to be... I don't know a single functioning couple where one partner is qualified to have the final say-so in all matters... Yet Driscoll would have all Christians believe that the man of every house is that qualified... but to be fair, that is the fundamental way.
I watched some of his services on You-tube. He does tend to dog down the guys pretty hard, and then he offers a solution after he has them feeling guilty, or less manly... Sure, some of the guys need it, but seriously, there are some mixed messages there...
Example:
My husband is not Christian... We are equal partners in our relationship of 12 years... Both of us are VERY happy... Yet my husband caught one of Mark's sermons when I was watching them, and he caught on immediately that since I am not kept under his thumb, to defer to him in ALL things, that he is less of a man, and that I am an unhappy woman...
According to Mark, our household is out of sorts... according to Mark, my husband probably isn't man enough to keep his woman (as if I am so weak that my actions in staying or leaving are determined on whether my husband 'puts his foot down')... According to Mark, judgment has been passed, and my husband is Hell-bound-and-gagged... Even if he was a Christian...
It's teachings like this that keep a good many strong people away from Christianity. Many (not all) of the people who succumb to these preaching tactics are people who are unsure what is the right doctrine, so they fall for the doctrine that is the most forceful. Think about it.
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:07 pm
rmcdra I'm sorry if I am coming off as too aggressive. Not at all! It's a pleasure to share opinions that differ. It's one way to grow. surprised Quote: Sometimes a woman is better suited to run a house or a marriage over a man. Couples that have this set up should not be declared sinful because they aren't adhering to the stereotype. I don't think the capacity to be a leader is determined by one's sex. Hmm... I need to figure out what that means on a Biblical level. I mean, what does Paul mean by saying that the man should be the head then? I'm not literally asking, I'm just thinking out loud for a second. I'll need to look into this. Historically speaking, women and men had very specific roles in the first century. Things today are different. Perhaps Paul was speaking in the context of their times? In other words, speaking in a way that made sense and was acceptable for them so that the most common family unit would smoothly operate. I wonder if he would have said different for today's culture. Quote: Quote: Just like any Pastor, he will have his weaknesses and strengths. As you and Pseudo-Onkelos said, one of the most important things is to see what seeds are being sown and what fruit is being born in all of this. I wholeheartedly agree. If Christ's name is being proclaimed, and the Holy Spirit is apparently moving and causing people to repent and turn to God, then is it so bad? It's just pointing out where I think he's off so he won't mislead what I think he's off concerning. I believe and think that being a member of the Christian community means that I should speak up when I believe, think, and especially know when a pastor is off on something. Good point, we're called to that. I think for now we agree to disagree on a few minor things. But our interests are the same, in that we want Pastors to lead with Integrity and Sensitivity to differing cultures. I really want to see where his ministry will lead him in the following years. He's certainly had an interesting one.
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:55 pm
Jfigu1008 Quote: Sometimes a woman is better suited to run a house or a marriage over a man. Couples that have this set up should not be declared sinful because they aren't adhering to the stereotype. I don't think the capacity to be a leader is determined by one's sex. Hmm... I need to figure out what that means on a Biblical level. I mean, what does Paul mean by saying that the man should be the head then? I'm not literally asking, I'm just thinking out loud for a second. I'll need to look into this. Historically speaking, women and men had very specific roles in the first century. Things today are different. Perhaps Paul was speaking in the context of their times? In other words, speaking in a way that made sense and was acceptable for them so that the most common family unit would smoothly operate. I wonder if he would have said different for today's culture. Oxford Bible Commentary suggests that 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 and 14:34-35 are interpolations. Next 1 Timothy wasn't penned by Paul. Though the simplest route most take is that these are advice of Church leaders at the time, not divine mandates. Quote: Quote: Quote: Just like any Pastor, he will have his weaknesses and strengths. As you and Pseudo-Onkelos said, one of the most important things is to see what seeds are being sown and what fruit is being born in all of this. I wholeheartedly agree. If Christ's name is being proclaimed, and the Holy Spirit is apparently moving and causing people to repent and turn to God, then is it so bad? It's just pointing out where I think he's off so he won't mislead what I think he's off concerning. I believe and think that being a member of the Christian community means that I should speak up when I believe, think, and especially know when a pastor is off on something. Good point, we're called to that. I think for now we agree to disagree on a few minor things. But our interests are the same, in that we want Pastors to lead with Integrity and Sensitivity to differing cultures. I really want to see where his ministry will lead him in the following years. He's certainly had an interesting one. Yeah more or less our disagreements are on minor points. But that's no big deal.
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Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 5:51 am
Here's one more quote you might take interest in. Romans 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. Junia is a woman.
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Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 12:53 pm
rmcdra Here's one more quote you might take interest in. Romans 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. Junia is a woman. Nice. Upon reading the first 16 verses of this chapter, I noticed that Paul addresses quite a few women. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen so many female names in one section of writing anywhere else in the New Testament!
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