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Talon-chan

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Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:42 pm

I.Am

The problem is, that's reasonless insulting! It's like, I can make up my beliefs however I like and state that the world's against me, but that doesn't make it true! I can say that, if I don't receive a thousand dollars from everyone I meet, that means that they hate me and think I'm a second class citizen, and, thus, are racist. And, according to my twisted beliefs, I would be right. But I'm not actually right. I just believe myself to be right. They don't actually think I'm a lower class citizen. So they aren't actually racist.

I'm just a paranoid freak.

It's not reasonless if it's justified belief.

I'd like to think that my pro-choice beliefs and your pro-life beliefs are better founded than your "you're a racist if you don't give me 1000 dollars" belief. Your "gimme money" belief may be internally consistent... but it surely isn't valid, justified, or backed by anything.

lymelady

Maybe I'm weird in that I don't discriminate against people based on their beliefs to the point where I'd try to avoid befriending them. I thought it was pretty normal that even though I'm pro-life, my best friend is pro-choice. I didn't realize that personal beliefs were a good thing to use to discriminate against people. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

I just can't be friends with people whom I believe seek to make me a lesser class citizen. At least not close friends. That's like asking a black man to be best friends with a card carrying member of the KKK. Sure they could put their differences aside and be friends on a personal level... but surely you'd understand why a black man would be opposed to such a relationship when he knows that deep down inside the KKK member would rather see him treated like s**t than a citizen.

Not saying pro-lifers have that view towards women... I understand quite clearly that you do not think your views are anti-women... but it is understandable why person A might avoid friendship with person B if person A understands person B's beliefs to be such that person B would want person A treated badly.

I feel strongly that the pro-life view is against women's rights (as I'm sure you understand)... even if pro-lifers don't see it that way themselves. Being a woman who wants my rights respected I feel I am in the place of the black man being asked if he'd like to be friends with a KKK member, or perhaps a Homosexual being asked to be Fred Phelp's best friend. I think I'm within my rights (and you would be within your rights as well) to refuse such friendships based on their personal beliefs.

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:50 pm

honestly, it's not the woman's right i care about, or making her feel inferior or anything- it's the fact that she made a choice, and because of it there is a human life inside her. i do not believe she should have the right to kill it. it is not about her, not about the fact that she is a woman. however, the fact is, only women can become pregnant, so abortion debates are inherently aimed at them.

divineseraph

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I.Am
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Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:55 pm

Talon-chan

I.Am

The problem is, that's reasonless insulting! It's like, I can make up my beliefs however I like and state that the world's against me, but that doesn't make it true! I can say that, if I don't receive a thousand dollars from everyone I meet, that means that they hate me and think I'm a second class citizen, and, thus, are racist. And, according to my twisted beliefs, I would be right. But I'm not actually right. I just believe myself to be right. They don't actually think I'm a lower class citizen. So they aren't actually racist.

I'm just a paranoid freak.

It's not reasonless if it's justified belief.

I'd like to think that my pro-choice beliefs and your pro-life beliefs are better founded than your "you're a racist if you don't give me 1000 dollars" belief. Your "gimme money" belief may be internally consistent... but it surely isn't valid, justified, or backed by anything.

And neither is yours, from my side of the fence. And neither is mine, from your side of the fence.

Quote:

lymelady

Maybe I'm weird in that I don't discriminate against people based on their beliefs to the point where I'd try to avoid befriending them. I thought it was pretty normal that even though I'm pro-life, my best friend is pro-choice. I didn't realize that personal beliefs were a good thing to use to discriminate against people. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

I just can't be friends with people whom I believe seek to make me a lesser class citizen. At least not close friends. That's like asking a black man to be best friends with a card carrying member of the KKK. Sure they could put their differences aside and be friends on a personal level... but surely you'd understand why a black man would be opposed to such a relationship when he knows that deep down inside the KKK member would rather see him treated like s**t than a citizen.

That's a ridiculous argument. The KKK is openly racist; They -do- hate black people. It's not that black people see their beliefs as making black people lower class citizens, but KKK members don't. Their beliefs actually are racist.

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Not saying pro-lifers have that view towards women... but that it is understandable why person A might avoid friendship with person B if person A understands person B's beliefs to be such that person B would want person A treated badly.

Yes, but that's not the way it is. Person B in this case does not want person A to be treated badly; That's not the intent. Person A perceives the end result as hurting them, put Person B does not intend them to hurt. That's the difference.

This argument is like me saying, "I'm going to avoid people who voted Kerry, because I believe that Kerry being president would have hurt the country and me."

Quote:

I feel strongly that the pro-life view is against women's rights (as I'm sure you understand). Being a woman who wants my rights respected I feel I am in the place of the black man being asked if he'd like to be friends with a KKK member, or perhaps a Homosexual being asked to be Fred Phelp's best friend. I think I'm within my rights (and within your rights as well) to refuse such friendships based on their personal beliefs.

I really don't understand all that well. As I said a moment ago, the KKK and, I'm assuming, Fred Phelps intend to harm blacks and gays respectively. We don't intend to harm women, even if the end results of our beliefs could be seen as that way.

From what I can see, saying that is like me saying I'm not going to be friends with people who want to, say, make guns illegal, because I could then be robbed by a guy with a gun, when I don't even have the chance of owning a gun. Or someone who was against going into Iraq, because I believe that Saddam either had WMDs, had access to them, or could whip some up fairly quick. Or someone who wants gay marriage made legal with no limitations on it, because I could forsee the government then trying to force my religion to allow gay marriages.

That's just stupid. No insult intended, but from what I can see those arguments are near-sighted, paranoid, and, in a way, racist themselves, because you are discriminating against people based on their political beliefs.

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:56 pm

Okay, so let me get this straight.

To me, you support the slaughter of 30-50 million babies worldwide each year.
To you, I support women having to stay pregnant another few months.

I can set my prejudices aside, even though to me you are just as bad as the people who kill their wives because it makes life easier, no, worse because you support doing it in an extremely painful way against someone completely defenseless...yet you can't get past, "They want women to actually deal with the choice they made when they had sex WITHOUT killing anyone."

lymelady
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divineseraph

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Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:58 pm

lymelady

Okay, so let me get this straight.

To me, you support the slaughter of 30-50 million babies worldwide each year.
To you, I support women having to stay pregnant another few months.

I can set my prejudices aside, even though to me you are just as bad as the people who kill their wives because it makes life easier, no, worse because you support doing it in an extremely painful way against someone completely defenseless...yet you can't get past, "They want women to actually deal with the choice they made when they had sex WITHOUT killing anyone."

heart

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:06 pm

divineseraph

lymelady

Okay, so let me get this straight.

To me, you support the slaughter of 30-50 million babies worldwide each year.
To you, I support women having to stay pregnant another few months.

I can set my prejudices aside, even though to me you are just as bad as the people who kill their wives because it makes life easier, no, worse because you support doing it in an extremely painful way against someone completely defenseless...yet you can't get past, "They want women to actually deal with the choice they made when they had sex WITHOUT killing anyone."

heart

She's a red head. That comes natural to her.

Tiger of the Fire

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Broorel

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Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:16 pm

lymelady

Okay, so let me get this straight.

To me, you support the slaughter of 30-50 million babies worldwide each year.
To you, I support women having to stay pregnant another few months.

I can set my prejudices aside, even though to me you are just as bad as the people who kill their wives because it makes life easier, no, worse because you support doing it in an extremely painful way against someone completely defenseless...yet you can't get past, "They want women to actually deal with the choice they made when they had sex WITHOUT killing anyone."

But apparantly we're all for the subjegation of women even though we're not enlightened enough to realize it. rolleyes

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:19 pm

Broorel

lymelady

Okay, so let me get this straight.

To me, you support the slaughter of 30-50 million babies worldwide each year.
To you, I support women having to stay pregnant another few months.

I can set my prejudices aside, even though to me you are just as bad as the people who kill their wives because it makes life easier, no, worse because you support doing it in an extremely painful way against someone completely defenseless...yet you can't get past, "They want women to actually deal with the choice they made when they had sex WITHOUT killing anyone."

But apparantly we're all for the subjegation of women even though we're not enlightened enough to realize it. rolleyes

Almost as bad as being for killing babies without realizing it.

lymelady
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Penguin Spoon

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Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:36 pm

Talon-chan

It's not reasonless if it's justified belief.

I'd like to think that my pro-choice beliefs and your pro-life beliefs are better founded than your "you're a racist if you don't give me 1000 dollars" belief. Your "gimme money" belief may be internally consistent... but it surely isn't valid, justified, or backed by anything.

I just can't be friends with people whom I believe seek to make me a lesser class citizen. At least not close friends. That's like asking a black man to be best friends with a card carrying member of the KKK. Sure they could put their differences aside and be friends on a personal level... but surely you'd understand why a black man would be opposed to such a relationship when he knows that deep down inside the KKK member would rather see him treated like s**t than a citizen.

How is racism a belief that is backed up and supported? Its not different than I AMs "gimme money" stance.

Quote:

Not saying pro-lifers have that view towards women... I understand quite clearly that you do not think your views are anti-women... but it is understandable why person A might avoid friendship with person B if person A understands person B's beliefs to be such that person B would want person A treated badly.

Does it mean that person A can judge person B? If so, then can I call you a baby killer and tell you that your stances against murder and rape are hypocritical because you support the violation of rights and the death of innocents every day?

Quote:

I feel strongly that the pro-life view is against women's rights (as I'm sure you understand)... even if pro-lifers don't see it that way themselves. Being a woman who wants my rights respected I feel I am in the place of the black man being asked if he'd like to be friends with a KKK member, or perhaps a Homosexual being asked to be Fred Phelp's best friend. I think I'm within my rights (and you would be within your rights as well) to refuse such friendships based on their personal beliefs.

Again, how is it that the KKK has a supported viewpoint, that isnt baseless racism? Thats exactly the same as comparing it to I Ams "gimme money" idea.

You are dodging the issue. You and the pro-choicers judge and slander us about our viewpoint based solely on where you are coming from. We do not do this. We could easily call you baby killers and hypocrits, but we would be the same as the crazed people who bomb abortion clinics. Your stance that you can treat us like s**t just because you feel a certain way is outlandish.

You have trouble admiting you are wrong I guess. Most people do. You could learn to develop this ability as it makes your arguments more credible and makes you as a person much more mature. It is okay to say "well youre right. I shouldnt judge your other beliefs based on how I feel about abortion. I apologize."

If anything it is going to make us respect you and your arguments more to see that you are capable of admiting you are wrong occasionally.

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:56 pm

Quote:

This argument is like me saying, "I'm going to avoid people who voted Kerry, because I believe that Kerry being president would have hurt the country and me."

I don't see it that way.

Pro-life positions pose a direct threat against what I percieve are my inalienable rights. Well intentioned or not I do not wish to be friends with people who would deny me these rights for any reason. You do not intentionally seek to cause me harm, but neither does a kid playing with matches intend to burn a house down. The KKK may intentionally seek to harm blacks, and Phelps may intentionally seek to harm gays, where the pro-life movement does not seek to intentionally harm women... but in my view the end result of significant harm is the same.

Quote:

That's just stupid. No insult intended, but from what I can see those arguments are near-sighted, paranoid, and, in a way, racist themselves, because you are discriminating against people based on their political beliefs.

So be it. You freely choose your political beliefs. I see nothing wrong with judging actions people freely and willingly choose to partake in.

Quote:

To me, you support the slaughter of 30-50 million babies worldwide each year.
To you, I support women having to stay pregnant another few months.

I can be dramatic about my position and belittle yours exactly the same way.

To me you support women losing control of their bodies where men would not be asked to do the same, officially qualifying them and valuing them only on the contents of their uteruses, reducing women to mere incubators for the sake of a non-sentient, non-person who if it was a person would have no right to be there anyway. You are taking away from women the one posession that is ultimately and completely theirs - their very being... for the sake of what? Non-sentient fetal matter that doesn't even begin to compare to a person/baby/adult/whatever.

But I imagine I won't be quite so applauded for representing your position as petty, as you were when you represented mine as petty.

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Almost as bad as being for killing babies without realizing it

I, and every pro-choicer out there, completely and entirely acknowledge that fetuses are being killed and that you consider them to be equivalent to born infants. I've never known of a pro-lifer to acknowledge their position will subjegate women by holding them to different standards than men.

Quote:

You have trouble admiting you are wrong I guess. Most people do. You could learn to develop this ability as it makes your arguments more credible and makes you as a person much more mature. It is okay to say "well youre right. I shouldnt judge your other beliefs based on how I feel about abortion. I apologize."

I see nothing wrong with judging people based on the beliefs they freely choose to have and maintain. I see nothing wrong with avoiding friendships with people I believe have everything but my best interest in mind. Am I wrong or immature for avoiding people who I believe would institutionalize what I believe would be my second-class citizenry with the "best intentions" sure, why not?

Anyhow I can see where this conversation is going, so I'm going to step out of it. I know where most of you stand, most of you know where I stand. I stand by all I've said completely, but I worry if I keep discussing it here it'll get too heated. If you *REALLY* want to argue about whether or not I'm justified to avoid friendship with people who believe differently than I, by all means PM me. I'm not posting in this thread anymore concerning that issue, though other things, have at it!

Talon-chan

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lymelady
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Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:13 pm

You represented mine as petty first by comparing the pro-life movement to racism. "Prolife is all about the subjugation of women." Oh, because that's not completely representing an entire movement as petty. A woman has a choice to her body. She has sex. Sorry, but when you have sex and then kill because you got pregnant due to what you did with your body, it's not taking control of your body, it's wrecklessly pleasuring yourself at the cost of another life.

So you are saying that an 8 week fetus is a baby to you? My mistake, I thought that it was just a clump of cells to you, which is why you don't support aborting in the third trimester. Even though a woman should be able to do what she wants with her body...oh, except when YOU think she shouldn't, right? Doesn't that go directly against your own definition of feminism? By your own standards, you treat women in the third trimester like incubators. Enjoy.

Oh yes. And when Kerry was running for president, I felt threatened by his politics. Directly threatened. So yeah, Andy's comparrison stands, shouldn't I have avoided people who voted for him since you know, they had a different viewpoint than I did and their viewpoints made me feel threatened? I suppose I should take a lesson in prejudice from you because I haven't quite got the whole, "Treat people like crud for thinking differently" thing down.

Also, does this mean that a kid playing with matches is just as evil as someone in the KKK and just as destructive? So in one case there's an accident, in another a hate crime, and the two actions are exactly the same to you?