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 Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:33 am
I'm going to go ahead and drop this link here, which is still obviously a work-in-progress. While I don't necessarily expect everyone to read through it, I'd be interested in hearing feedback from those who do bother. sweatdrop
Also, I recognise that I can be boring and hard-to-understand, and that both of those make for bad tutorials. When I say feedback is appreciated, I really do mean it - any improvements you can think of, I'd be excited to hear... 3nodding
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Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:44 am
Wow Red! This is amazing, especially the idea of starting off with the cutscene from the manga. 3nodding Your ideas with introducing the basics is really clear and straightforward, one of the things I think tutorials should have, which sadly the current one does not have. sweatdrop I didn't find it at all to be boring or hard-to-understand! For the part where it states "[If one of the enemies reaches Frank, he pauses to handle the enemies himself, then restarts his timer from the beginning. Trigger on Frank completing his task.]", I don't believe it should start from the beginning again due to the fact most new players may not be able to do it and might get annoyed and not want to complete it. Maybe the timer should go back half of what it's been possibly? "Rage is gained by interacting with enemies, and can be spent to unleash bigger and more devastating effects." I believe something should be mentioned in here that it can also be gained through other rings that don't necessarily interact with enemies (e.g. healing rings, buffs, etc.). Wow, you've really thought this out. I didn't even consider giving Frank a defibrillate-like effect! whee " : Drag the ring from your inventory onto your ring tray to equip it." Excuse me if I'm wrong, but if you do not have all the rings in your inventory full, doesn't any new ring automatically already go into your ring tray? sweatdrop
That's about all I have going through my head at the moment. I may have a few more suggestions or questions later on though. ^_^
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Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:56 am
moranokii " : Drag the ring from your inventory onto your ring tray to equip it." Excuse me if I'm wrong, but if you do not have all the rings in your inventory full, doesn't any new ring automatically already go into your ring tray? sweatdrop That is if you get it from a killed enemy with agro upon you. from the picture red makes, the enemy doesn't necessarily need to be aggroed or even have anything in its drop list to grant the ring. it seems to be a plot event. There ought to be ways to add items to the inventory directly when someone enters the tutorial the first time. Quote: [Badge granted for first ring equipped?] Tutorial badges such as this, that can only really happen once, need a grant somewhere outside the tutorial, or the tutorial needs to be set up in a way that older players can run it and use any other ring to get the badges, even unequipping rings they are wearing and equipping again if necessary. There's a lot of people who will whine if they can't have it, despite making no difference. Quote: a small metre showing his progress above his head. I wonder if this is really necessary. For once, I did consider the idea of such indications in-game. ne place that would REALLY benefit for it would be the protection trial, as the meter is a much better way of seeing just how close the game is to being lost or not than a numeric value. Also, the many forms of PvP we could have other than direct skirmishes could include capture points, which could never work with timers, but a sliding meter would do just fine. Then again, we already have timers, for every single instance of situations similar to this one, but we don't have these metres yet. And I got to wonder if the difference is relevant or if this detail could be relinquished for the sake of getting the step done faster. Quote: [A Rage gauge appears above Frank’s head as he pauses.] can't complain about the use of it here though. Of note: If the player dies on any point, Frank revives them with full health and stamina, with no respawn prompt. That is a cool think we agreed. Unless it's impossible to remove the prompt. Then if the player presses it before being revived, they appear on the middle of the same screen.
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Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:31 am
moranokii For the part where it states "[If one of the enemies reaches Frank, he pauses to handle the enemies himself, then restarts his timer from the beginning. Trigger on Frank completing his task.]", I don't believe it should start from the beginning again due to the fact most new players may not be able to do it and might get annoyed and not want to complete it. Maybe the timer should go back half of what it's been possibly?
In all of my time in the Forums, I don't distinctly recall Fluff Rush giving anyone undue trouble - and what I'm thinking of here would be much, much easier. Frank would only be busy for a few seconds (slowing the gameplay too much makes things boring), and this is before the introduction of enemies that require more than one attack to defeat. Additionally, I'd considered having the spawns generate based on the speed at which the player defeats them - if the player is taking their time or having trouble, fewer enemies spawn overall, but if they're really getting the hang of it, the gameplay keeps up with them. I assure it wasn't designed to be a major stopping point, and even for new players the prospect of those enemies reaching Frank would be relatively unlikely.
Quote: "Rage is gained by interacting with enemies, and can be spent to unleash bigger and more devastating effects." I believe something should be mentioned in here that it can also be gained through other rings that don't necessarily interact with enemies (e.g. healing rings, buffs, etc.).
You gain Rage by healing when enemies have damaged you (you don't gain Rage if the target is at full Health), and you gain Rage from buffs which are designed to help you to deal with enemies. The whole concept of Rage is intended to require you to interact with enemies, and I'd personally like players to understand that, before we try explaining the exceptions to it. Besides, if we teach players to watch their Rage bar, they can deduce on their own which rings generate Rage, and how. If we want to go into more depth explicitly, I'd save it for later. 3nodding
Quote: Wow, you've really thought this out. I didn't even consider giving Frank a defibrillate-like effect! whee
That was just to avoid the issue of the Null Chamber, which can't be properly introduced until the player reaches the Village Greens. redface
Quote: " : Drag the ring from your inventory onto your ring tray to equip it." Excuse me if I'm wrong, but if you do not have all the rings in your inventory full, doesn't any new ring automatically already go into your ring tray? sweatdrop
It certainly does do that, but there's no reason that it should. The only justification I can think of is that the game never teaches players how to use the inventory, so it delays the relevance of it - but we constantly get Forum posts asking how to equip a ninth ring (in multiple forms), meaning that the system is not nearly as intuitive as we'd hope. sweatdrop
All-in-all, I think it's natural to expect players to work with their inventory. If we want to retain the functionality, we could reasonably add a 'Add New Rings to Ring Tray' option, in the Menu. 3nodding
Quote: That's about all I have going through my head at the moment. I may have a few more suggestions or questions later on though. ^_^
Thank you so much for reading through it! I'm quite glad that it didn't bore you too badly, as I know that it's particularly reliant on Manga cutscenes and general visual impressiveness - something zOMG! does well, but is hard to explain via text. sweatdrop
But yes, any comments you have are always welcomed... 3nodding
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Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:00 am
DrQuint Quote: [Badge granted for first ring equipped?] Tutorial badges such as this, that can only really happen once, need a grant somewhere outside the tutorial, or the tutorial needs to be set up in a way that older players can run it and use any other ring to get the badges, even unequipping rings they are wearing and equipping again if necessary. There's a lot of people who will whine if they can't have it, despite making no difference.
I believe the trigger for the Badge would be "Equip a ring" which would be easily manageable by anyone - tutorial or no. I'd definitely avoid being overly specific about the requirements, as tutorial badges are meant to be simplistic, and forcing players to complete the tutorial in order to get them makes little sense (while, contrariwise, forcing players to get the badges to complete the turorial makes perfect sense).
Quote: Quote: a small metre showing his progress above his head. I wonder if this is really necessary. For once, I did consider the idea of such indications in-game. ne place that would REALLY benefit for it would be the protection trial, as the meter is a much better way of seeing just how close the game is to being lost or not than a numeric value. Also, the many forms of PvP we could have other than direct skirmishes could include capture points, which could never work with timers, but a sliding meter would do just fine. Then again, we already have timers, for every single instance of situations similar to this one, but we don't have these metres yet. And I got to wonder if the difference is relevant or if this detail could be relinquished for the sake of getting the step done faster.
Replacing verbal information (numbers and text) with visual information (like graphs and metres) is really very useful when detailed information isn't necessary (like in this case). Quite simply, it feels like you're taking in less information, which reduces the chance for overload (which is bad for casual games and tutorials, both). In fact, I think there are relatively few instances in the game where timers couldn't be replaced with a simple metre to good effect - and when you can reduce the amount of needless information being throuwn around, it's probably for the best to do so.
That said, it probably wouldn't be necessary, and the metres could be reasonably replaced with timers. The thing is, a metre is not a hard thing to implement (it takes two rectangles and a division sign), so it's hard for me to imagine a position where it's not worth including.
Quote: Quote: [A Rage gauge appears above Frank’s head as he pauses.] can't complain about the use of it here though. Of note: If the player dies on any point, Frank revives them with full health and stamina, with no respawn prompt. That is a cool think we agreed. Unless it's impossible to remove the prompt. Then if the player presses it before being revived, they appear on the middle of the same screen.
Of course not, it's your idea. I 'just happened' to be looking over tutorial-relevant threads as I was writing, and the change from one piece of rubble to two was a pretty easy one. wink
I think the easiest thing would be simply to set the position of the prompt offscreen, if it can't be removed outright. That said, I don't see why it couldn't be removed at that point, but if we're feeling lazy, that would at least prove effective... 3nodding
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Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:19 pm
Red Kutai The thing is, a metre is not a hard thing to implement (it takes two rectangles and a division sign), so it's hard for me to imagine a position where it's not worth including. Oh boy, this takes me back. Even I made a bar like that once on the shootorials year back, and those tutorials were heavily reliant on the reader doing stuff they had no idea the ******** they were doing. I'm forced to agree, the bars seem too easy to implement, the entire work is aesthetics pretty much. Red Kutai I think the easiest thing would be simply to set the position of the prompt offscreen, if it can't be removed outright. That said, I don't see why it couldn't be removed at that point, but if we're feeling lazy, that would at least prove effective... 3nodding
Ironic. Parts of the HUD being offscreen is one of the most crippling issues we get players come seeking help for, and easy but annoying to fix as well. The prompt position isn't saved between dazes, so I don't see how making it like this could give any accidental problems later on (like, being dazed somewhere and unable to revive due to missing prompt)
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:14 am
I think everyone's already pointed out the questions that I had or may have had. I'll admit I was initially hesitant about having manga styled scenes in the game(as they appear nowhere else) but after going through the zOMG! manga for this, I'm very much for it, so much so I wish they'd have chosen to have the dialogue in SS, EB done manga style as well to add greater impact to it and to add a sense of closure to a chapter ending.
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:51 pm
Red Kutai
I'm going to go ahead and drop this link here, which is still obviously a work-in-progress. While I don't necessarily expect everyone to read through it, I'd be interested in hearing feedback from those who do bother. sweatdrop
Also, I recognise that I can be boring and hard-to-understand, and that both of those make for bad tutorials. When I say feedback is appreciated, I really do mean it - any improvements you can think of, I'd be excited to hear... 3nodding
I actually like this tutorial a lot even though I don't understand the point of having achievements for new players that old players don't get. It's a lot more basic text than the original tutorial but more helpful than the new tutorial, so it is really good. I also like how the train is used. It would be interesting to hear what the buff and powerup tutorial parts would be like. Awesome idea using the original manga to help with this.
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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:12 pm
Silk Kanishk I think everyone's already pointed out the questions that I had or may have had. I'll admit I was initially hesitant about having manga styled scenes in the game(as they appear nowhere else) but after going through the zOMG! manga for this, I'm very much for it, so much so I wish they'd have chosen to have the dialogue in SS, EB done manga style as well to add greater impact to it and to add a sense of closure to a chapter ending.
If we can get away with it, I'd propose converting Labtech 123's and X's dialogue into similar manga cutscenes - it would potentially require new artwork to manage it, but I think the impact of it would definitely be worth the effort. Visual impressiveness is one of zOMG!'s real strengths, and manga format is the 'language' through which Gaia expresses its stories - it seems only natural that we combine the two when we can, and I think it would really help in making zOMG! feel like part of the Gaia storyline. 3nodding
Scobes I actually like this tutorial a lot even though I don't understand the point of having achievements for new players that old players don't get. It's a lot more basic text than the original tutorial but more helpful than the new tutorial, so it is really good. I also like how the train is used. It would be interesting to hear what the buff and powerup tutorial parts would be like. Awesome idea using the original manga to help with this.
As I mentioned before, I don't intend for those Badges to be exclusive to new players - "Equip a ring" and "Defeat an enemy" are objectives that should be perfectly manageable even for experienced players; they simply make those accomplishments more rewarding for new ones. However, I would like to include a Badge granted specifically for completing the tutorial - and simply give players the option of replaying the tutorial (perhaps alongside the overall quest reset option that's been discussed) to obtain it. Since the tutorial will be intended to be part of the player's storyline, I see no issue with expecting players to run through it - so long as players are given the option. wink
I've run into some internet problems lately, so I'll have to save a copy of this on my computer and work on it while I'm not online - I'd also very much like to try and progress a bit farther, and I do already have some thoughts on what I'd like to do with it... 3nodding
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:44 am
Red Kutai
If we can get away with it, I'd propose converting Labtech 123's and X's dialogue into similar manga cutscenes - it would potentially require new artwork to manage it, but I think the impact of it would definitely be worth the effort. Visual impressiveness is one of zOMG!'s real strengths, and manga format is the 'language' through which Gaia expresses its stories - it seems only natural that we combine the two when we can, and I think it would really help in making zOMG! feel like part of the Gaia storyline. 3nodding
Indeed! biggrin Cause there is no other real indication that Frank is labtech123 apart from the way he looks. A manga styled scene might be able to better convey the revelation of Frank's true identity and sense of betrayal as Quint mentioned earlier. 3nodding And I hope you're taking into consideration the discussions we've had about the rings and how many and what type of rings should be offered to the players. 3nodding Looking forward to the rest of it.
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:14 pm
Silk Kanishk Indeed! biggrin Cause there is no other real indication that Frank is labtech123 apart from the way he looks. A manga styled scene might be able to better convey the revelation of Frank's true identity and sense of betrayal as Quint mentioned earlier. 3nodding And I hope you're taking into consideration the discussions we've had about the rings and how many and what type of rings should be offered to the players. 3nodding Looking forward to the rest of it.
Indeed. Making out the details of an avatar's face from that scale is exceedingly difficult - even with the hint at Old Aqueduct (the implication that Frank is, in fact, a Labtech) it's still not particularly likely that players will pick up on the connection. I personally feel that the fact makes for a much richer experience as a significant storyline element, than as some sort of Easter egg, so ensuring that players are able to easily make the connection that elicits that emotional response is key. 3nodding
I have taken it into consideration, yes - though, for the context of the scripts I've written, I've been assuming the off proto-ring theory we discussed; partially because I've been favouring that as a general solution, and partially because it avoids decisions that are difficult to resolve under the current ring balance. sweatdrop
That said, it would be minimal effort to adjust for ring pre-selection, so if that winds up being the better option, the changes should be perfectly manageable...
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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:35 am
Red Kutai
Indeed. Making out the details of an avatar's face from that scale is exceedingly difficult - even with the hint at Old Aqueduct (the implication that Frank is, in fact, a Labtech) it's still not particularly likely that players will pick up on the connection. I personally feel that the fact makes for a much richer experience as a significant storyline element, than as some sort of Easter egg, so ensuring that players are able to easily make the connection that elicits that emotional response is key. 3nodding
I have taken it into consideration, yes - though, for the context of the scripts I've written, I've been assuming the off proto-ring theory we discussed; partially because I've been favouring that as a general solution, and partially because it avoids decisions that are difficult to resolve under the current ring balance. sweatdrop
That said, it would be minimal effort to adjust for ring pre-selection, so if that winds up being the better option, the changes should be perfectly manageable...
Through having it in manga form, we could also give players a quick option to skip the entire scene so they wouldn't have to endure it every time and it would be a much nicer alternative to the slightly pensive "speedreading" ordeal which players have to go through right now. 3nodding I'm just wondering if the manga scenes should be applied to Marshal too. whee We know that would make the crowds go wild. lol And ooh! proto rings again. whee I'm curious now cause I think with the tutorial and instructions, the proto-rings will finally be made more clear to me. Another fine alternative as granting the user three attack rings and having to explain each of their functions might be far more time consuming. I just hope it'll be easy to implement from the devs side. 3nodding
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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:27 am
Silk Kanishk Through having it in manga form, we could also give players a quick option to skip the entire scene so they wouldn't have to endure it every time and it would be a much nicer alternative to the slightly pensive "speedreading" ordeal which players have to go through right now. 3nodding I'm just wondering if the manga scenes should be applied to Marshal too. whee We know that would make the crowds go wild. lol And ooh! proto rings again. whee I'm curious now cause I think with the tutorial and instructions, the proto-rings will finally be made more clear to me. Another fine alternative as granting the user three attack rings and having to explain each of their functions might be far more time consuming. I just hope it'll be easy to implement from the devs side. 3nodding
Indeed, and that supplies a couple more important notes for Manga cutscenes. Firstly, it'd be nice if they were viewable at any time through the PDA system - having an archive of Manga cutscenes that register after the first time you watch them would be enjoyable for players who would like to relive those scenes without the effort. You've earned it once, no reason to make you keep paying for it. sweatdrop
Second, allowing players to skip past cutscenes that have already been registered would be a convenient bypass to the speed-talking issue as you mention. I've never really been a major proponent of speed-talking, but if the game is guaranteeing that you've experienced the scene at least once previously, it makes a lot of sense not to force players to sit through it again. 3nodding
Marshall's cutscenes would be a little difficult, because much of his speeches happen in areas with combat potential - specifically, the explanation immediately after Lorelei is defeated (when Marshall is introduced) and the speech at the Undersea Ledge could be converted to cutscenes reasonably well. As with the introductions for most major characters, I agree that I'd like to see that converted into a Manga-style scene, for the benefit of the impact.
Hopefully the concept for the proto-rings (which I'm tentatively calling "Mystery Rings", for now) will be a tad more clear as I get to the point where their real use comes into play. At this point in the script, those rings are simply behaving as simple attack/heal effects, and there's no real extra consideration necessary. Once players leave the sewers (yep, we've still got a ways to go I'm afraid razz ), they'll be introduced to the fuller system...
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