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Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:32 am
arika-toteshi-ka Good point, they still are, but the bible wasn't written in the present, I just meant back then it existed too. The second part means tithing, so tithing 10% of however much money you make. It helps keep the church running and since many pastors don't have paying jobs it helps them too. And what do you mean the mess God made? He didn't make the mess, we did. God created us as choosing beings, he didn't make us robots. Imagine being married, and your spouse is tied by the ankles with a chain, so your spouse tells you s/he loves you, and cooks for you and does everything for you, but s/he's forced too because s/he's chained up. It's fake, it doesn't mean anything. Now imagine having a spouse who does those things and says they love you while being free. That's how it is with us and God, if it was forced, it would be and feel fake. Yeah only in those times it was ok to kill them and now it's not is that what you're saying or are you saying the bible is wrong or that jezus was wrong or what. Well religion is still getting too much i mean take usa as an example (senece we're all familiar with it). If religious institutions got taxed it would cover all the usa debut. Actually god allowed a mess, he did give us limitations in several directions, so why not put just 1 more parameter in, to make everything better. And yet we are still under the threat of hell. You can behave anyway you want but if you don't do this this and this you go to hell. That's the mafia boss analogy, and it's exactly the kinda god I would refuse to worship even if i believed. That's like me putting a gun to your head and saying, you have a choice give me 100$ or you die. And if you give me 100$ I say you gave it freely. And if you chose not to and i shot you its a suicide. So actually religion demands you to surrender free will.
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Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:41 am
arika-toteshi-ka So you believe in Satan and God. You believe Satan does exist and you choose to blame God for all the problems in the world? All of these problems you hate stem from satan, and you'd choose hell over heaven? No I don't believe, but i'm putting myself into a position of believer and saying what I'd do if I believed. I'm alredy heaving to many debates of god vs no god going on to start another right now, so this is more like a comedy in the middle of star track marathoon. Wait are you saying Satan has power over god? I mean anything that happens must be approved by god, he's the boss, so if satan steps out of line he's gonna get it. So if god is signing off on it, its even more his fault than satans, cuz he deliberally exposes his children to danger. For all we know satan doesn't know any better.
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Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:51 am
Socika arika-toteshi-ka Good point, they still are, but the bible wasn't written in the present, I just meant back then it existed too. The second part means tithing, so tithing 10% of however much money you make. It helps keep the church running and since many pastors don't have paying jobs it helps them too. And what do you mean the mess God made? He didn't make the mess, we did. God created us as choosing beings, he didn't make us robots. Imagine being married, and your spouse is tied by the ankles with a chain, so your spouse tells you s/he loves you, and cooks for you and does everything for you, but s/he's forced too because s/he's chained up. It's fake, it doesn't mean anything. Now imagine having a spouse who does those things and says they love you while being free. That's how it is with us and God, if it was forced, it would be and feel fake. Yeah only in those times it was ok to kill them and now it's not is that what you're saying or are you saying the bible is wrong or that jezus was wrong or what. Well religion is still getting too much i mean take usa as an example (senece we're all familiar with it). If religious institutions got taxed it would cover all the usa debut. Actually god allowed a mess, he did give us limitations in several directions, so why not put just 1 more parameter in, to make everything better. And yet we are still under the threat of hell. You can behave anyway you want but if you don't do this this and this you go to hell. That's the mafia boss analogy, and it's exactly the kinda god I would refuse to worship even if i believed. That's like me putting a gun to your head and saying, you have a choice give me 100$ or you die. And if you give me 100$ I say you gave it freely. And if you chose not to and i shot you its a suicide. So actually religion demands you to surrender free will. Wait, he didn't kill tax payers, they were just hated by everyone around them. Or what are you talking about? Why should religious institutions get taxed? There are still some states who don't get sale taxed at all, like Oregon for example. In what directions did God give us limitations? Can you be more specific? Still under the threat of hell? To go to Heaven/become a Christian, you just need to ask Jesus into your heart. If you mean "under threat of hell" as in Satan is still lurking around, well yeah, life's tough, Satan isn't going to give up w/o a fight, we have temptations every day. Whatever, that is NOT the mafia boss analogy. If you get married, it's because you Love that person and choose to be with them, it's the same with God, if you believe and Love him, you choose to be with him, how is that like the mafia? Religion does not demand you to surrender free will, you choose you're not forced into religion. Is someone forcing you to believe in God, is someone forcing you to love others, is someone forcing you to do every action that you do or have ever done? No, you have free will. Yeah every nation has laws you have to follow, but you choose whether you want to follow them or not.
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Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:24 pm
arika-toteshi-ka Wait, he didn't kill tax payers, they were just hated by everyone around them. Or what are you talking about? Why should religious institutions get taxed? There are still some states who don't get sale taxed at all, like Oregon for example. In what directions did God give us limitations? Can you be more specific? Still under the threat of hell? To go to Heaven/become a Christian, you just need to ask Jesus into your heart. If you mean "under threat of hell" as in Satan is still lurking around, well yeah, life's tough, Satan isn't going to give up w/o a fight, we have temptations every day. Whatever, that is NOT the mafia boss analogy. If you get married, it's because you Love that person and choose to be with them, it's the same with God, if you believe and Love him, you choose to be with him, how is that like the mafia? Religion does not demand you to surrender free will, you choose you're not forced into religion. Is someone forcing you to believe in God, is someone forcing you to love others, is someone forcing you to do every action that you do or have ever done? No, you have free will. Yeah every nation has laws you have to follow, but you choose whether you want to follow them or not. You said how friends of tax collectors are bad or some did. Well all other institutions are taxed, so why not religious too. it's not like they're doing anything good. Even religious charity work is corrupt, they dangle a carrot in front of you than hand you a bible. There is only so much we are capable of understanding, remembering, learning, we can only live for long, We can only take this much, we can only get this far... God made us right to his specifications and limited us in every way, even designed the way we think, for example he designed ants to always serve the queen sacrificing the individual for the good of the group. while we serve ourselves for our benefit not caring about society. And yes christianity is exactly like the mafia boss. It says accept jezus and live by these rules or be tortured forever. Gimme 100$ or die. Do x or y will happen If that's free choice to you ok, but it doesnt look like free choice to me.
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Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:58 pm
Socika Shanna66 and that i think is the biggest problem with christianity today, people forget christ's teachings unless its something easy. love the sinner hate the sin, its what jesus did and its what we need to do too. @rmcdra someone needs to put that on a bumper sticker Can you tell me where exactly in the bible is that written, cuz I can't find it. It's not in the Bible. It was coined by Augustine of Hippo and reaches in its modern form from Gandhi. It was to convey the idea of caring about a person despite not liking what they are doing, though it's more often used today as a catchphrase to justify demeaning a person while still claiming to "love" them.
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Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:59 pm
It's threads like this why I wish guilds had a "tip" options. Excellent responses and questions Elta and Socika. biggrin
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:57 am
Socika arika-toteshi-ka Wait, he didn't kill tax payers, they were just hated by everyone around them. Or what are you talking about? Why should religious institutions get taxed? There are still some states who don't get sale taxed at all, like Oregon for example. In what directions did God give us limitations? Can you be more specific? Still under the threat of hell? To go to Heaven/become a Christian, you just need to ask Jesus into your heart. If you mean "under threat of hell" as in Satan is still lurking around, well yeah, life's tough, Satan isn't going to give up w/o a fight, we have temptations every day. Whatever, that is NOT the mafia boss analogy. If you get married, it's because you Love that person and choose to be with them, it's the same with God, if you believe and Love him, you choose to be with him, how is that like the mafia? Religion does not demand you to surrender free will, you choose you're not forced into religion. Is someone forcing you to believe in God, is someone forcing you to love others, is someone forcing you to do every action that you do or have ever done? No, you have free will. Yeah every nation has laws you have to follow, but you choose whether you want to follow them or not. You said how friends of tax collectors are bad or some did. Well all other institutions are taxed, so why not religious too. it's not like they're doing anything good. Even religious charity work is corrupt, they dangle a carrot in front of you than hand you a bible. There is only so much we are capable of understanding, remembering, learning, we can only live for long, We can only take this much, we can only get this far... God made us right to his specifications and limited us in every way, even designed the way we think, for example he designed ants to always serve the queen sacrificing the individual for the good of the group. while we serve ourselves for our benefit not caring about society. And yes christianity is exactly like the mafia boss. It says accept jezus and live by these rules or be tortured forever. Gimme 100$ or die. Do x or y will happen If that's free choice to you ok, but it doesnt look like free choice to me. Friend's of tax collectors were evil? Who said that? There are charity groups that are corrupt, like some of them do it for the money and "buy golden toilet seats" type of thing, but there are many who actually do do a good job, and not all are christian, so which charities are you drawing from? So are you saying we're limited because we're not immortal? I believe that he didn't design our thoughts= we grew up in homes and react to how we were raised, that's why everyone is different. Yeah, ants do sacrifice and do good for the society, humans could be that way too, but many of us are too selfish, but it's not impossible. Many people do sacrifice their lives for the good of the society. I don't really think Christianity is like the mafia. If you accept Jesus and follow "the rules", everything you said that is wrong with humanity wouldn't be as bad. No killing, not as much selfishness (though it can be hard), loving others, etc. And while there are many temptations, it's not a sin to be tempted, it's how you react to those temptations that matters. I'm not sure if this is relevant, it kind of is, someone choosing between saving their son and letting a train full of people die, or saving the train and letting their son die: http://www.godvine.com/A-Father-Faces-an-Unfathomable-Decision-Powerful-550.html
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:48 am
Quote: ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' Matthew 11:19 qyp first page 1. And i wasn't reffering to charities who steal I was reffering to all religious charities who push their religious agenda using chairties 2. Among other things yes 3. well according to you god is the ultimate puppet master free will or not he put the parameters in place and we're stuck that way, whatever he wants basicly, in fact how can you even know free will isn't just an ilusion, thoughts being put into your head and you just think they're yours. kinda like the matrix which also can't be disproven 4. Do you know that the vast majority of prisioners are christian even when you put it into the proper ratio atheist So basicly you can whipe half the world out of existance and still go to heaven, but if don't believe no matter how much good you do you automaticly go to hell. ''For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith- and this not of yourselves it is the gift - not by works so that no one can boast.'' EPHESIANS 2:8-9 5. Well sacrificing your kids is kinda 2nd nature in the bible right.
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:13 am
Socika Quote: ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' Matthew 11:19 qyp first page 1. And i wasn't reffering to charities who steal I was reffering to all religious charities who push their religious agenda using chairties 2. Among other things yes 3. well according to you god is the ultimate puppet master free will or not he put the parameters in place and we're stuck that way, whatever he wants basicly, in fact how can you even know free will isn't just an ilusion, thoughts being put into your head and you just think they're yours. kinda like the matrix which also can't be disproven 4. Do you know that the vast majority of prisioners are christian even when you put it into the proper ratio atheist So basicly you can whipe half the world out of existance and still go to heaven, but if don't believe no matter how much good you do you automaticly go to hell. ''For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith- and this not of yourselves it is the gift - not by works so that no one can boast.'' EPHESIANS 2:8-9 5. Well sacrificing your kids is kinda 2nd nature in the bible right. Here's the whole verse of Matthew 11:19= "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinner." ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions." People called Jesus a glutton and drunkard, and a friend of tax collectors. He was being a good person by befriending everyone but they tried to make him look bad, which they failed to do. 1. So do you mean charities like TOMS shoes, where when you buy a pair of shoes they send a pair to a kid in a different country? I'm sorry, but that's the only charity I know of. I know people who went on a mission trip to Ecuador, and they helped pass out TOMS shoes to kids, so that charity is real. 3. I didn't say God was a puppetmaster, please stop putting words in my mouth. I said He gave us free-will and made us choosing beings. Sadly, I haven' t seen the matrix. Can you explain the 3rd point some more, what you mean by paramaters and stuff? 4. Many people call themselves Christian, that doesn't mean they are, doesn't mean they really believe, but we can't know that for sure because we can't get inside people's head or truly know what they believe. I don't know why everyone does what they do, but if they're in jail and call themselves Christian, they are going to get judged by God. It says in the bible that if you are a leader who leads people into doing wrong things, they'll get punished worse than others. And not the "oh you're in prison now" type of punishment, but when they meet God face to face, he will judge them severely. I went to a church last year where it was a popularity contest. It was all about image, and who LOOKED the godliest by attending every church event, showing off how involved they were, looking "perfect" because according to them Christians can't be sad. But it was fake, and you could tell. There were cliques and it was a popularity contest. Now I go to a church that is smaller, but you can feel the love of God, and it isn't about image or perfection, but about the relationship you have with God. So no, Christians aren't perfect. 5. What do you mean? Did you watch the vid? Sacrificing anything is hard, but a loved one is even harder.
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:52 am
0. Yes in that verse it says how being a friend to tax collectors is bad, (it's logical to assume tax collectors are bad too). And if you read 11:20 those people were condemed by jezus for basicly name calling. Nice messiah! 1.I'm not saying that religious charities don't do anything good but some make accepting their faith, or listening to preachings or giving out bible s**t.. along with the help. That's why secular charities are better they have no other agenda than just help. 3. If you watch The invention of lying you'll see it's still free will only noone was capable of lying (exept for 1) That would be like adding a new paramether, noone would really notice it. Btw ignore the adds they are short but they keep it free. 4. Actually they could just pray for forgivness and go to heaven. maybe you should check out Christian guide to sinning.5. That's probobly why christian god wants human sacrifice, cuz he's insecure.
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:21 am
That were not condemned for name calling...
They were condemned for ignoring the miracles Jesus did... rmcdra has already explained this...
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:49 am
Okay I'm stepping in as mod here. The OP's thread has been hijacked long enough and it has gone off topic for at least a page and a half now. Please start a new topic if you want to discuss any of this further.
Any more posts that aren't on the OP's subject will be deleted indiscriminately.
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:29 am
Bringing people who are already Christians to church defeats the purpose.
When you die, the only thing you take with you is other people.
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:06 pm
Yes, yes, yes. I agree wholeheartedly. If somebody honestly wants to change and wants to develop a connection with God, I don't see why they shouldn't be given that right.
On the other hand, if they're only causing trouble, goofing around and making no progress, then something should probably done.
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Quotable Conversationalist
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