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 Posted: Sat May 21, 2011 11:02 pm
As occultists or at least those interested in the paranormal and hidden aspects of reality, how do we cope with the thing that constantly weighs down our field: lack of objective evidence?
I've experienced incredible things in my studies and practices of various areas of occultism and mysticism but I don't have a shred of conclusive proof for any of it. It was definitely real to me, but I'm quite sure that it would be hard to believe for most other people.
So how do you deal with it? Are you content just having this knowledge and experience for yourself or do you constantly strive to prove the objective reality of the paranormal or supernatural? Do you think it even matters?
Do you tell people about your experiences openly or do you fear being labeled mentally unstable? Are you afraid that you are actually going mad because you are having these strange experiences?
Personally, I know that probably no one will believe that I've made contact with an entity from another sphere of reality. I was quite surprised myself when it actually worked. But I'm willing to do it again because maybe, just maybe, I'll receive information that can help me along in more objective occult faculties. If some day I'm able to conclusively prove something miraculous to the world then great, but for the time being I'm content with seeing just how far I can go.
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 6:30 pm
It's something to be dealt with? Either you're someone that believes in it, or you're someone who acknowledges the lack of evidence and still takes an interest anyway.
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:30 pm
Blind Guardian the 2nd It's something to be dealt with? Either you're someone that believes in it, or you're someone who acknowledges the lack of evidence and still takes an interest anyway. What I'm interested in is how one that is a practicing occultist that has had mystic or paranormal experiences copes with their reality when the majority of society has never had such experiences or adamantly opposes that worldview. Or how they cope with experiencing things that are far from the ordinary. Do we disregard our experiences because of a lack of objective evidence for those experiences? Does that make them any less real? That's the stream of thought I'm in. We could even discuss the more vague topic of how we relate to society as occultists, given many occult practices are misunderstood or have had a stigma attached to them.
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:54 am
Obscurus Blind Guardian the 2nd It's something to be dealt with? Either you're someone that believes in it, or you're someone who acknowledges the lack of evidence and still takes an interest anyway. What I'm interested in is how one that is a practicing occultist that has had mystic or paranormal experiences copes with their reality when the majority of society has never had such experiences or adamantly opposes that worldview. Or how they cope with experiencing things that are far from the ordinary. Do we disregard our experiences because of a lack of objective evidence for those experiences? Does that make them any less real? That's the stream of thought I'm in. We could even discuss the more vague topic of how we relate to society as occultists, given many occult practices are misunderstood or have had a stigma attached to them. Perception always has primacy. What one has perceived is effectively irrefutable, and the issue is the relation between perception and a public, shared notion of reality, which we of course make for ourselves, including the categories of possible and the not. In cases of altered states of consciousness (which is what spiritual/magical experiences are often referred to as in the academic world) there is a stigma attached to it in the West. It's the source of our attitude to drugs and mental illness: they are a deviation from our accepted, increasingly rationalistic reality. Secularism leads to the primacy of empiricism, thus the need for this shared reality in order to verify truths, rather than that of individual experience. So the solution many seem to take? Secrecy and private discussions. Like those taking place here. Many seem to accept the stigma of their views and continue them in isolation, accepting the differing forms of reality that their own experience and modernity constitute. So I would say that the experiences are not disregarded, but instead used to maintain a challenge to the dominant mode of reality. They are not taken as less real, but less permissible in broader social circumstances.
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 7:00 pm
Blind Guardian the 2nd Obscurus Blind Guardian the 2nd It's something to be dealt with? Either you're someone that believes in it, or you're someone who acknowledges the lack of evidence and still takes an interest anyway. What I'm interested in is how one that is a practicing occultist that has had mystic or paranormal experiences copes with their reality when the majority of society has never had such experiences or adamantly opposes that worldview. Or how they cope with experiencing things that are far from the ordinary. Do we disregard our experiences because of a lack of objective evidence for those experiences? Does that make them any less real? That's the stream of thought I'm in. We could even discuss the more vague topic of how we relate to society as occultists, given many occult practices are misunderstood or have had a stigma attached to them. Perception always has primacy. What one has perceived is effectively irrefutable, and the issue is the relation between perception and a public, shared notion of reality, which we of course make for ourselves, including the categories of possible and the not. In cases of altered states of consciousness (which is what spiritual/magical experiences are often referred to as in the academic world) there is a stigma attached to it in the West. It's the source of our attitude to drugs and mental illness: they are a deviation from our accepted, increasingly rationalistic reality. Secularism leads to the primacy of empiricism, thus the need for this shared reality in order to verify truths, rather than that of individual experience. So the solution many seem to take? Secrecy and private discussions. Like those taking place here. Many seem to accept the stigma of their views and continue them in isolation, accepting the differing forms of reality that their own experience and modernity constitute. So I would say that the experiences are not disregarded, but instead used to maintain a challenge to the dominant mode of reality. They are not taken as less real, but less permissible in broader social circumstances. That is pretty insightful. Thank you for responding.
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Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:06 am
Going with a Bonewits perspective, a lot of people simply accept and follow the Magical Laws of Personal and Infinite Universes. Everyone lives in their own universe and reality that can never be 100% experienced by anyone else.
So, in another's reality, magic and psi are just silly things to read about in fiction, while others partake in them as something tangible. It still makes it difficult to discuss, especially for someone in a field where such beliefs, if not taken in context, can be considered psychopathology.
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Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:15 am
As a Solipsist Scientist, personal observation is the only research I do.
Seriously, though, I feel that a self consistent worldview, vetted through your own standards of doubt and judgement, to the best of your ability, allows you to understand the world though personal experience, in such cases where society wide consensus or scientific research is not available.
I do feel, however, that this process of doubting ourselves is to a degree, very healthy. I think that some people, submerged in the orthodoxy of their lifestyle and beliefs, never stop once to question, to seek to further understand. They spend their waking hours sleeping through ideas and patterns they did not choose nor understand.
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Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:25 pm
Joshua_Ritter As a Solipsist Scientist, personal observation is the only research I do.
Seriously, though, I feel that a self consistent worldview, vetted through your own standards of doubt and judgement, to the best of your ability, allows you to understand the world though personal experience, in such cases where society wide consensus or scientific research is not available.
I do feel, however, that this process of doubting ourselves is to a degree, very healthy. I think that some people, submerged in the orthodoxy of their lifestyle and beliefs, never stop once to question, to seek to further understand. They spend their waking hours sleeping through ideas and patterns they did not choose nor understand. Kind of a "I may be wrong, but at least I came to this stance on my own," kind of thing?
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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:25 am
Obscurus Joshua_Ritter As a Solipsist Scientist, personal observation is the only research I do.
Seriously, though, I feel that a self consistent worldview, vetted through your own standards of doubt and judgement, to the best of your ability, allows you to understand the world though personal experience, in such cases where society wide consensus or scientific research is not available.
I do feel, however, that this process of doubting ourselves is to a degree, very healthy. I think that some people, submerged in the orthodoxy of their lifestyle and beliefs, never stop once to question, to seek to further understand. They spend their waking hours sleeping through ideas and patterns they did not choose nor understand. Kind of a "I may be wrong, but at least I came to this stance on my own," kind of thing?
Exactly. Even more so, how can you possibly be right if it doesn't occur to you that you can be wrong? How do you change a thing? Not every experience in this world is appropriate to be measured with the hard scientific method, but basic ideas of common sense and a willingness to doubt ourselves and grow goes an infinitely long way.
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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:51 pm
Joshua_Ritter Obscurus Joshua_Ritter As a Solipsist Scientist, personal observation is the only research I do.
Seriously, though, I feel that a self consistent worldview, vetted through your own standards of doubt and judgement, to the best of your ability, allows you to understand the world though personal experience, in such cases where society wide consensus or scientific research is not available.
I do feel, however, that this process of doubting ourselves is to a degree, very healthy. I think that some people, submerged in the orthodoxy of their lifestyle and beliefs, never stop once to question, to seek to further understand. They spend their waking hours sleeping through ideas and patterns they did not choose nor understand. Kind of a "I may be wrong, but at least I came to this stance on my own," kind of thing?
Exactly. Even more so, how can you possibly be right if it doesn't occur to you that you can be wrong? How do you change a thing? Not every experience in this world is appropriate to be measured with the hard scientific method, but basic ideas of common sense and a willingness to doubt ourselves and grow goes an infinitely long way.Common sense and a willingness to doubt and grow is something you don't see enough of whether it's spiritualists or "scientists."
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