My deck (traditional play)

[Sasori00923]

Dude I could smack this deck around with my ADVANCED format Gemini Deck,and it sucks hard.....it's just WAY TOO RANDOM and FULL OF 1 OF'S,you can use Cyber-Stein or Metamorphosis to get the fusions without the monsters and just cram random high atk fusions into your extra deck,Makyura the Destructor is a great monster......take out some of the random things in the deck and base on something, ex. Envoys, the Ol' Yata Lock, Hell you could even build a Cathedral of Nobles/Mythical Beast Serket deck and abuse that bad boy........ OPTIONS,OPTIONS,OPTIONS!!!  

[TimithyEcho]

Sasori00923

Dude I could smack this deck around with my ADVANCED format Gemini Deck,and it sucks hard.....it's just WAY TOO RANDOM and FULL OF 1 OF'S,you can use Cyber-Stein or Metamorphosis to get the fusions without the monsters and just cram random high atk fusions into your extra deck,Makyura the Destructor is a great monster......take out some of the random things in the deck and base on something, ex. Envoys, the Ol' Yata Lock, Hell you could even build a Cathedral of Nobles/Mythical Beast Serket deck and abuse that bad boy........ OPTIONS,OPTIONS,OPTIONS!!!

dont have makyura. i do have a yata somewhere dont think i have the mythical beast and why exactly are "1 ofs" bad? i generally play for fun ive never gone to a tournement and played because lack of money to get new cards ect and ide consider my self serous but not in a "im gonna look down on others cause my ego is huge" type way like someone did earlier. but i feel that its pretty decent. for a deck that " doesnt have a focus " its done pretty good. out of 4 duels on here it did won 2 of them, the 5th got started but they had to get going. but thats beside the point (sort of) so why exactly are 1 ofs bad and i dont think anything is really random, since my deck doesnt have a theme i dont exactly see anythign as random so your gonan need to be a bit more specific lol. (awaiting coments of me "turning down help")  

[Exotahu]

I'll just say that yea, I'd drop about 19-20 cards.

Not gonna say to make a new deck though, if it works well enough in your opinion and you don't care all that much, go for it.

However, removing 19-20 random filler cards should make it run even better. Maybe balance the lights and darks more if you're going for the chaos thing.  

[TimithyEcho]

Exotahu

I'll just say that yea, I'd drop about 19-20 cards.

Not gonna say to make a new deck though, if it works well enough in your opinion and you don't care all that much, go for it.

However, removing 19-20 random filler cards should make it run even better. Maybe balance the lights and darks more if you're going for the chaos thing.

not going for a chaos thing i just put ion end and begining because i realized i had a nice amount of light and dark monsters. non of them are exactly filler though lol  

[Gravitational Molestation]

SOLIDNSNAKE

Gravitational Molestation

Statistics, probability... they decimate your 60 card desire.

This list is also decimated by pretty much anything I can s**t out in less than 10 minutes for Traditional and all I do is throw random good Lights and Darks together for the most part. neutral

But the real reason I'm posting is to save people. This is the same kid who sat for, what, FIVE PAGES in Duelist Nexus arguing that Raigeki is perfectly balanced because everyone can use it and that there shouldn't be a ban list. I'd stop trying.

i dont remember argueing it was balanced, i just dont see why there is a ban list and i dont see why it is banned. but that was there, and i dont wanna get into this arguement cause i was banend from nexus just cause they couldnt prove a point and figured it be better to ban me then try to expalin it.

also im not ignoreing advice (if it seems as such im sorry) but when your "advice" is make a new deck completely, or something liek that, that isnt advice.

No, you were banned because you were and are a cancer. Your ignorance on the matter was ridiculous. No matter what points were made you simply stood there and went, "I don't understand, both people have it so it's fine right?" You used the same idiotic argument over and over again no matter what point was made against you. You could not win and can not win.

You are a cancer.  

[Fresh Porn]

Example of why there should be a ban list

Monsters: 17
2 Caius the Shadow Monarch
2 Cyber Dragon
2 Thunder King Rai-Oh
2 Doomcaliber Knight
1 Chaos Emperor Dragon Envoy of the End
1 Black Luster Soldier Envoy of the Beginning
1 Cyber Jar
1 Magician Of Faith
1 Witch of the Black Forest
1 Yata Garasu
1 Sangan
1 Plaguespreader Zombie
1 Spirit Reaper
1 Marshmallon

Magic: 12
1 Raigeki
1 Dark Hole
1 Heavy Storm
1 Pot of Greed
1 Allure of Darkness
1 Giant Trunade
1 Cold Wave
1 Snatch Steal
1 Brain Control
1 Change of Heart
1 Monster Reborn
1 Premature Burial

Traps: 8
2 Bottomless Traphole
1 Call of the Haunted
1 Crush Card Virus
1 Trap Dustshoot
1 Ring of Destruction
1 Mirror Force
1 Torrential Tribute  

[Gravitational Molestation]

Nope, we tried the chaos route.

He wouldn't even agree about the damn FTKs/OTKs of Traditional. He's just flat out ignorant.  

[TimithyEcho]

Gravitational Molestation

SOLIDNSNAKE

Gravitational Molestation

Statistics, probability... they decimate your 60 card desire.

This list is also decimated by pretty much anything I can s**t out in less than 10 minutes for Traditional and all I do is throw random good Lights and Darks together for the most part. neutral

But the real reason I'm posting is to save people. This is the same kid who sat for, what, FIVE PAGES in Duelist Nexus arguing that Raigeki is perfectly balanced because everyone can use it and that there shouldn't be a ban list. I'd stop trying.

i dont remember argueing it was balanced, i just dont see why there is a ban list and i dont see why it is banned. but that was there, and i dont wanna get into this arguement cause i was banend from nexus just cause they couldnt prove a point and figured it be better to ban me then try to expalin it.

also im not ignoreing advice (if it seems as such im sorry) but when your "advice" is make a new deck completely, or something liek that, that isnt advice.

No, you were banned because you were and are a cancer. Your ignorance on the matter was ridiculous. No matter what points were made you simply stood there and went, "I don't understand, both people have it so it's fine right?" You used the same idiotic argument over and over again no matter what point was made against you. You could not win and can not win.

You are a cancer.

still stands i think, i said i didnt wanna get into this here, because you guys couldnt explain it will enough doesnt mean i should have been banned, there was one person who tried to explain it better then all of you and i give them props for trying. ide rather not get banned from this guild just cause you suck at explaining why there should be a ban list  

[shrab]

here is a reasoning for the ban list. if their was none then any card including many powerful OTK cards such as yata would come back and the game would become destabilized and be thrown into a chaotic mess of cheap wins and rage quitting which would result in the game ending. and dont even try and say oh everyone can use the same things so its their own fault if they fail because thats not the case. most of the good banned cards since being banned are somewhat hard to come by unless they were made common and if the ban list had never been made then the game wouldnt have survived to this point anyway going off my last explanation. now lets go to new players. a newer player couldnt get into the game worth s**t seeing as they would have to buy into a powerful deck from the very beginning or otherwise be doomed to losing repeatedly and never being able to improve then they get frustrated and rage quit once again preventing the game from going on. i could go on and on with this but ill stop there. honestly yugioh has the best banning system i think of any card game seeing as things like pokemon and magic are douche bags and ban by sets so all those cards you worked so hard to get become worthless and you have to buy more. yugioh simply bans by what is unbalancing the game at the time usually leaving a set tier of decks that are above others. sometimes they ban weird things yes like getting rid of substitoad when it would have made more sense to get rid iof mass driver which usually by itself creates OTKs when the right cards show up(first thing coming to mind being the frog OTK with it and the giga plant OTK with it)  

[Space Toad -B]

shrab

like getting rid of substitoad when it would have made more sense to get rid of mass driver

Mass Driver was an Americanized problem. An issue we had with TCG, and even then, Mass Driver was not the most popular use of Frogs, Monarchs were.

In Japan, the problem Frogs created was the constant summoning and recycling of Trishula, Dragon of the Ice Barrier. It could be done, over and over again, thanks to Substitoad. Why ban Mass Driver, one unhealthy F/OTK, when removing Substitoad stopped the deck from performing all of them?  

[TimithyEcho]

shrab

here is a reasoning for the ban list. if their was none then any card including many powerful OTK cards such as yata would come back and the game would become destabilized and be thrown into a chaotic mess of cheap wins and rage quitting which would result in the game ending. and dont even try and say oh everyone can use the same things so its their own fault if they fail because thats not the case. most of the good banned cards since being banned are somewhat hard to come by unless they were made common and if the ban list had never been made then the game wouldnt have survived to this point anyway going off my last explanation. now lets go to new players. a newer player couldnt get into the game worth s**t seeing as they would have to buy into a powerful deck from the very beginning or otherwise be doomed to losing repeatedly and never being able to improve then they get frustrated and rage quit once again preventing the game from going on. i could go on and on with this but ill stop there. honestly yugioh has the best banning system i think of any card game seeing as things like pokemon and magic are douche bags and ban by sets so all those cards you worked so hard to get become worthless and you have to buy more. yugioh simply bans by what is unbalancing the game at the time usually leaving a set tier of decks that are above others. sometimes they ban weird things yes like getting rid of substitoad when it would have made more sense to get rid iof mass driver which usually by itself creates OTKs when the right cards show up(first thing coming to mind being the frog OTK with it and the giga plant OTK with it)

ehh makes some sence, doesnt exactly strike me as cards NEED to be banned but whatev. i dont get many things about the banlist, like what the hell makes certain cards banned at one point and then later not so bad. like for instance, in the thread i was banned from in nexus someone said dark hole is very unfair and should be banned (cause to me its exactly like heavy storm but for monsters) then later in the thread someone stated the new ban list got rid of dark hole and moved it to limited...i think (i dont keep up with it cause i dont use it) and then i think the same person was ok this is fair now.

i dont understand how suddenly a card becomes fair and unfair within seconds just because some list says so. sounds like you guys are followers to me. like monster reborn people tell me its so unfair cause you can get a monster from the graveyard regardless of level so there is no loss. then when it comes off the list "o yea its totally fair"

as for OTK's big deal you ahve to draw it, and yea people can get the cards, why they spend alot of money on these cards they could spend alot of money on 1 super card to help buff there deck up.  

[Gravitational Molestation]

Yep, I can't explain worth s**t.

Edit

As for Dark Hole, I'll admit, I was wrong about that.

http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=19612935&page=1

Delta Four Sicilian

Raigeki = auto 0 or higher in card advantage gain, hits facedowns and faceups, no cost.
Dark Hole = Played at the right time = Raigeki

There are cards to negate Butterfly Dagger - Elma but it's still ban worthy.

Things on the banlist are there due to OTK/FTK/Instant Win Locks or their ability to generate massive amounts of advantage one way. Those advantage generating cards remove all the skill that's left in deck design and play. With them free reign, almost all decks would look the same and it would easily be down to only who drew better.

Zera

The bolded part is exactly what a game should never consist of: 100% luck.

Skill is necessary for any competitive sport, and the banlist helps keep skill alive. There are simply certain cards and decks that undermine any skill that is necessary to have a successful competive environment. Decks like Explosion FTK and Magical Scientist FTK win the game outright on their first turn for free. Meaning if you lose the dice roll and have to go second, you lose. The banlist keeps these kind of decks in check. As you get further into the competitive aspect of the game, and learn about things like card advantage and what makes cards and decks successful, you'll understand the importance of the banlist on your own.

Delta Four Sicilian

The luck s**t had nothing to do with you.

If you've gotten into a Yata LOCK you wouldn't get out of it. Why? BECAUSE IT'S A LOCK. Getting pecked once or twice with resources still available to you isn't a lock.

Want to bet I can't?

Monsters 7:
1 Cyber Jar
3 Broww
3 Thunder Dragon

Spells 33:
1 Graceful Charity
1 Card Destruction
1 Serial Spell
3 Book of Taiyou
3 The Shallow Grave
1 Painful Choice
1 Pot of Greed
3 Dark World Dealings
3 Hand Destruction
3 Magical Mallet
1 Foolish Burial
3 Upstart Goblin
3 Into the Void
1 Harpies' Feather Duster
1 Heavy Storm
1 Giant Trunade
2 Book of Eclipse
1 Monster Reborn
1 Premature Burial

One of many "I go first, I win the match" decks. Want to try again?


beast king barbaros - No need, whatsoever. Three tributes for a possible two monster kill? Congrats, you just -1'd yourself.
star dust dragon assualt mode - Too hard to get out and I've beaten this thing a few times.
needle worm (at least limited) - No need. Milling is not a problem in Advanced because EMPTY JAR IS GONE.
grand mole. (cheap as hell) - Limited like it should be, not game breaking enough to make it ban worthy.

Try again.

Delta Four Sicilian

Magic Jammer is a -1, please use that, I don't care. I'll have the card advantage for game.

Gryphon's Win is a trap that hits one card. So not only do you have to concern yourself with the chances of drawing it, but you have to concern yourself with the chances of it living long enough to be used against Harpies' Feather Duster.

Try again.

Delta Four Sicilian

Ok, congratulations, you found a hand that will almost never happen. In fact I have a 1 in 3,838,380 chance of that happening. Your little technicalities do not defend your point that FTKs wouldn't rule the game is all those cards were unbanned.

I will win every match if I go first with that deck. Want to try it?

Barbaros: You're still only going to destroy two cards, at most, by the time you have three monsters to bring out. It's still a -1 and you'd have far better control by keeping those three monsters.

Assault Mode: Just because its effect is good doesn't negate the fact that it's hard as ******** to get out and a DD Crow handles the situation. You -2 or 3 yourself to get it out and I -1 myself to stop it. You're still down, I still win.

Needle Worm: Your opponents are bad, and so are you for even considering this thing broken.

Grand Mole: Yes, it has locking capabilities, that's why it's at one. However, there are wonderful amounts of ways AROUND that lock. Summon Fulhelmknight in attack mode. They either summon it and Mole's attack is negated and he's stuck on the field, or they attack with the other monster first and make you negate, then bounce Fulhelm so you have an invincible wall. OR you could Book of Moon, Dimensional Prison, Torrential Tribute, Solemn Judgment, Solemn Warning, or Mirror Force it. All commonly used cards.

Delta Four Sicilian

Ok, build a deck to stop:
Empty Jar FTK
Last Turn FTK
Frog FTK
Other Mass Driver FTK Variations
Magical Explosion FTK All three variations
Magical Scientist FTK
Chain Strike FTK
DDT
Exodia Now
Dark Strike Fighter OTK
Makyura FTK Both Variations


And still be able to beat...
Traditional STUN
Traditional Naturias
Traditional Morphtronics
Traditional Machina Gadgets
Traditional Synchro Cat
Traditional CO Burn
Traditional Black Garden Control
Traditional Gladiator Beasts
Traditional X-Sabers
Traditional TeleDAD
Traditional Infernities

and then beat...
Traditional RFG Monarchs
Traditional Perfect Circle
Traditional Frog Monarchs
Traditional Quickdraw
Traditional Drain Plants
Traditional Chaos
Traditional Lightsworn


Need any more?

Every deck becomes viable because 80% of that deck will be stapled banned cards. Why? Because they generate massive card advantage. There is no skill in traditional play.

You're wrong, utterly wrong about thinking those things should not be banned.

Also, I listed FOURTEEN OTK/FTK decks off the top of my head. I'd LOVE to see a deck to counter all of them while still being able to stand on its own against other decks that aren't OTK/FTK focused. Come on, try me.

Delta Four Sicilian

DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUR. Of course, the R&D department of Konami really care that much right? If they see an OTK/FTK possibility, they may nerf a card idea, or they could make it a secret rare so people buy more packs so they can run the OTK/FTK.

Then they'll limit it later to keep players playing.

Marketing Priorities > Game Development Priorities

Delta Four Sicilian

Being the minority =/= being right.

Also, Armycat, thank you for saving me from having to write out an example.

Delta Four Sicilian

Say I spend $300 on three copies of one card that makes an FTK/OTK with four months left before the new banlist.

With about seventeen weeks left, let's assume I have seventeen tournaments. Those tournaments cost me $5 to enter. Lifting my costs to $385. Let's add that I spend $10 every two weeks on gas to get to and from said tournaments. That raises my costs to $550. Now say I win every single tournament because of my FTK/OTK and get 5 packs each time I do so. Each pack is worth $4. 17*5*4 = $340. Eventually I'll be pulling cards worth more than $20, the total amount for each top prize. From those expensive cards, I shark online trades and end up getting a binder worth about $850. Meaning, I just profited about $300 over a four month period. I then sell that binder for $1000 as a bulk deal on eBay to some idiots who don't realize the banlist is coming. Not to mention selling the cards I just bought for $300 for $250 due to eventual market drop. So, I'll get back $1250 after spending $550. $700 profit? I think that's smart.

Delta Four Sicilian

Emergency bans have only happened TWICE. TWICE. Cyber Stein was the first and Dimension Fusion and Dark Magician of Chaos were the second.

Otherwise new ban lists occur every six months. September 1st and March 1st.

If I don't win, I'll likely get 2nd, 3rd, or 4th. Point is, over 17 tournaments I will likely obtain something and make a profit before last second selling out the $300 cards for a fraction less than the original $300 and profit with whatever else I've obtained.

It's not that hard to understand.

Delta Four Sicilian

The raw, free, generation of advantage with no disadvantage is why they were banned. How many times do we have to say that?

Ok, here...

I have Harpie's Feather Dust, Raigeki, Delinquent Duo, Confiscation, Forceful Sentry and Yata Garasu in hand and no field.

You have one back row, five monsters monster, four in hand. Ten cards to my six cards. Your utter control of the field to my superior sized hand. I drop Duster, regardless of your backrow, it goes. I drop Raigeki. I just used one card to destroy FIVE of yours. FIVE OF THEM. That's an equalizing move that puts me at four in hand to your four in hand. I then drop Duo, Confiscation and Forceful Sentry. You lose your whole hand and have no cards, hand OR field, to my one card in hand. I went from being down four cards to being up one. A switch of a five card stud. I then summon Yata Garasu for game.

A bit extreme, but let's do another. Dark Hole this time.

You have no hand, no backrow and five monsters on the field. I have a set Sangan and no cards in hand. I then top deck Dark Hole. I play Dark Hole and destroy your monsters and mine. I lose two cards to your five. Equalized. 0 to 0. However, Sangan just died. I search my deck for Yata Garasu, summon it and win.

Get it yet?

Delta Four Sicilian

If you're running Broww, you will lose anyway. I'd lead with Forceful Sentry, and save me from any of that.

Spectacular move? That's horrid. Absolutely horrid.

You assuming that I think you have NORMAL MONSTERS in Traditional is laughable.

I AM assuming you'd be running a good deck though. Which, given how you keep replying with off the wall, wouldn't be run in traditional crap, you're obviously not. You'd lose regardless of what I have in my hand with s**t like that. God damn.

EDIT: If you can't understand why things are banned, you should stop playing yugioh. Seriously. Go out and play something else, like Checkers.

Seriously, PLAY ME with traditional. I will OBLITERATE you 100% of the time because you don't understand how card advantage works and how it is the fundamental structure of the game. Play me in advanced and I'd crush you there too.

Delta Four Sicilian

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/The_Forceful_Sentry

I look at your hand, thus I don't use the rest of the s**t in my hand to discard! If you have something that won't negatively effect me I'll Confiscation it away. I'll use Yata to knock away a draw and still have card advantage on you! You don't even know the cards on the banlist and you're trying to defend them?!

Delta Four Sicilian

He said the same thing we've all been saying. THE SAME THING.

Cards need to be BANNED because otherwise the whole game would be dominated by FTKs/OTKs, complete, 100% FTKs and OTKs. It would be VERY BORING.

And if they banned the stuff that made FTKs/OTKs possible, we'd still be left with decks running 20~ of the exact same cards. Frog Monarch decks don't like different from other Frog Monarch decks, but they look different from X Saber decks, at least all but five or six cards. Now imagine all decks would be over 50% of the exact same thing.

It would be very boring, top decks would win regardless of what you did to prevent it. You could top out of a situation that took the opponent three turns to plan and execute by drawing Raigeki, Harpie's Feather, blah blah and equalize the situation.

tl;dr HOW MANY ******** TIMES DO I HAVE TO ******** REPEAT THE SAME ******** ANSWERS TO YOUR SAME ******** QUESTIONS?

Delta Four Sicilian

OKAY!
Harpies Feather Duster one for ones.
Raigeki one for fives, assuming you don't have Witch, Sangan, or, in your case, Neko Mane King.
I Forceful Sentry, you have Sinister Serpent, Broww, Broww, and Thousand Eyes Idol. I send back Serpent. Serpent goes INTO YOUR DECK. I Confiscation, you lose Idol. You now have Broww and Broww to my Duo and Yata Garasu. I summon Yata Garasu and you don't draw. You go, summon, swing for 1400. I draw Snatch Steal. I use it, grab Broww. I summon Yata. Swing for 1600. You don't draw. I now have four to your one. You summon or set Broww. Doesn't matter. You're locked.

I could have drawn Graceful Charity, Pot of Greed, Upstart Goblin x3 (I'd run it in Yata Lock, whatever), Black Luster Soldier, Chaos Emporer, or a plethora of other special summons for the permanent Yata Lock.

Congratulations. You LOST.

The problem with equalizing is that you shouldn't be able to topdeck to equalize when you're down four cards. You've been outplayed up to that point and the opponent deserves to win. Leaving wins to chance and luck instead of strategy and tactics, you know, SKILL makes this game ******** retarded.

Delta Four Sicilian

Snatch Steal
Monster Reborn
Premature Burial
Graceful Charity
Pot of Greed
Upstart Goblin
Upstart Goblin
Upstart Goblin
Dark Hole
Chaos Emporer Dragon - Envoy of the End
Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning
Cyber Dragon
Cyber Dragon
Smashing Ground
14 of the remaining cards in my deck. Assuming that was my opening hand, I have 34 cards left in deck. Two of those won't be useful, so 12 possible cards.

That's 1/3rd of my deck, and any good Yata Lock focused deck.

Or I'll just draw
Tribe Infecting Virus
Snipe Hunter
Mystic Tomato
Thunder King Rai-Oh
Thunder King Rai-Oh

Even MORE s**t I'd use to dominate you.

Yes, deserves to win. Say you're playing chess. You capture all but their Rook and King and you have seven Pawns, two Rooks, a Queen, a Bishop, a Knight, and your King. You have Checkmate in One. Would it be fair if your opponent used Raigeki and destroyed all but your King for game? No, no it would not.

 

[TimithyEcho]

Gravitational Molestation

Yep, I can't explain worth s**t.

Edit

As for Dark Hole, I'll admit, I was wrong about that.

http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=19612935&page=1

Delta Four Sicilian

Raigeki = auto 0 or higher in card advantage gain, hits facedowns and faceups, no cost.
Dark Hole = Played at the right time = Raigeki

There are cards to negate Butterfly Dagger - Elma but it's still ban worthy.

Things on the banlist are there due to OTK/FTK/Instant Win Locks or their ability to generate massive amounts of advantage one way. Those advantage generating cards remove all the skill that's left in deck design and play. With them free reign, almost all decks would look the same and it would easily be down to only who drew better.

Zera

The bolded part is exactly what a game should never consist of: 100% luck.

Skill is necessary for any competitive sport, and the banlist helps keep skill alive. There are simply certain cards and decks that undermine any skill that is necessary to have a successful competive environment. Decks like Explosion FTK and Magical Scientist FTK win the game outright on their first turn for free. Meaning if you lose the dice roll and have to go second, you lose. The banlist keeps these kind of decks in check. As you get further into the competitive aspect of the game, and learn about things like card advantage and what makes cards and decks successful, you'll understand the importance of the banlist on your own.

Delta Four Sicilian

The luck s**t had nothing to do with you.

If you've gotten into a Yata LOCK you wouldn't get out of it. Why? BECAUSE IT'S A LOCK. Getting pecked once or twice with resources still available to you isn't a lock.

Want to bet I can't?

Monsters 7:
1 Cyber Jar
3 Broww
3 Thunder Dragon

Spells 33:
1 Graceful Charity
1 Card Destruction
1 Serial Spell
3 Book of Taiyou
3 The Shallow Grave
1 Painful Choice
1 Pot of Greed
3 Dark World Dealings
3 Hand Destruction
3 Magical Mallet
1 Foolish Burial
3 Upstart Goblin
3 Into the Void
1 Harpies' Feather Duster
1 Heavy Storm
1 Giant Trunade
2 Book of Eclipse
1 Monster Reborn
1 Premature Burial

One of many "I go first, I win the match" decks. Want to try again?


beast king barbaros - No need, whatsoever. Three tributes for a possible two monster kill? Congrats, you just -1'd yourself.
star dust dragon assualt mode - Too hard to get out and I've beaten this thing a few times.
needle worm (at least limited) - No need. Milling is not a problem in Advanced because EMPTY JAR IS GONE.
grand mole. (cheap as hell) - Limited like it should be, not game breaking enough to make it ban worthy.

Try again.

Delta Four Sicilian

Magic Jammer is a -1, please use that, I don't care. I'll have the card advantage for game.

Gryphon's Win is a trap that hits one card. So not only do you have to concern yourself with the chances of drawing it, but you have to concern yourself with the chances of it living long enough to be used against Harpies' Feather Duster.

Try again.

Delta Four Sicilian

Ok, congratulations, you found a hand that will almost never happen. In fact I have a 1 in 3,838,380 chance of that happening. Your little technicalities do not defend your point that FTKs wouldn't rule the game is all those cards were unbanned.

I will win every match if I go first with that deck. Want to try it?

Barbaros: You're still only going to destroy two cards, at most, by the time you have three monsters to bring out. It's still a -1 and you'd have far better control by keeping those three monsters.

Assault Mode: Just because its effect is good doesn't negate the fact that it's hard as ******** to get out and a DD Crow handles the situation. You -2 or 3 yourself to get it out and I -1 myself to stop it. You're still down, I still win.

Needle Worm: Your opponents are bad, and so are you for even considering this thing broken.

Grand Mole: Yes, it has locking capabilities, that's why it's at one. However, there are wonderful amounts of ways AROUND that lock. Summon Fulhelmknight in attack mode. They either summon it and Mole's attack is negated and he's stuck on the field, or they attack with the other monster first and make you negate, then bounce Fulhelm so you have an invincible wall. OR you could Book of Moon, Dimensional Prison, Torrential Tribute, Solemn Judgment, Solemn Warning, or Mirror Force it. All commonly used cards.

Delta Four Sicilian

Ok, build a deck to stop:
Empty Jar FTK
Last Turn FTK
Frog FTK
Other Mass Driver FTK Variations
Magical Explosion FTK All three variations
Magical Scientist FTK
Chain Strike FTK
DDT
Exodia Now
Dark Strike Fighter OTK
Makyura FTK Both Variations


And still be able to beat...
Traditional STUN
Traditional Naturias
Traditional Morphtronics
Traditional Machina Gadgets
Traditional Synchro Cat
Traditional CO Burn
Traditional Black Garden Control
Traditional Gladiator Beasts
Traditional X-Sabers
Traditional TeleDAD
Traditional Infernities

and then beat...
Traditional RFG Monarchs
Traditional Perfect Circle
Traditional Frog Monarchs
Traditional Quickdraw
Traditional Drain Plants
Traditional Chaos
Traditional Lightsworn


Need any more?

Every deck becomes viable because 80% of that deck will be stapled banned cards. Why? Because they generate massive card advantage. There is no skill in traditional play.

You're wrong, utterly wrong about thinking those things should not be banned.

Also, I listed FOURTEEN OTK/FTK decks off the top of my head. I'd LOVE to see a deck to counter all of them while still being able to stand on its own against other decks that aren't OTK/FTK focused. Come on, try me.

Delta Four Sicilian

DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUR. Of course, the R&D department of Konami really care that much right? If they see an OTK/FTK possibility, they may nerf a card idea, or they could make it a secret rare so people buy more packs so they can run the OTK/FTK.

Then they'll limit it later to keep players playing.

Marketing Priorities > Game Development Priorities

Delta Four Sicilian

Being the minority =/= being right.

Also, Armycat, thank you for saving me from having to write out an example.

Delta Four Sicilian

Say I spend $300 on three copies of one card that makes an FTK/OTK with four months left before the new banlist.

With about seventeen weeks left, let's assume I have seventeen tournaments. Those tournaments cost me $5 to enter. Lifting my costs to $385. Let's add that I spend $10 every two weeks on gas to get to and from said tournaments. That raises my costs to $550. Now say I win every single tournament because of my FTK/OTK and get 5 packs each time I do so. Each pack is worth $4. 17*5*4 = $340. Eventually I'll be pulling cards worth more than $20, the total amount for each top prize. From those expensive cards, I shark online trades and end up getting a binder worth about $850. Meaning, I just profited about $300 over a four month period. I then sell that binder for $1000 as a bulk deal on eBay to some idiots who don't realize the banlist is coming. Not to mention selling the cards I just bought for $300 for $250 due to eventual market drop. So, I'll get back $1250 after spending $550. $700 profit? I think that's smart.

Delta Four Sicilian

Emergency bans have only happened TWICE. TWICE. Cyber Stein was the first and Dimension Fusion and Dark Magician of Chaos were the second.

Otherwise new ban lists occur every six months. September 1st and March 1st.

If I don't win, I'll likely get 2nd, 3rd, or 4th. Point is, over 17 tournaments I will likely obtain something and make a profit before last second selling out the $300 cards for a fraction less than the original $300 and profit with whatever else I've obtained.

It's not that hard to understand.

Delta Four Sicilian

The raw, free, generation of advantage with no disadvantage is why they were banned. How many times do we have to say that?

Ok, here...

I have Harpie's Feather Dust, Raigeki, Delinquent Duo, Confiscation, Forceful Sentry and Yata Garasu in hand and no field.

You have one back row, five monsters monster, four in hand. Ten cards to my six cards. Your utter control of the field to my superior sized hand. I drop Duster, regardless of your backrow, it goes. I drop Raigeki. I just used one card to destroy FIVE of yours. FIVE OF THEM. That's an equalizing move that puts me at four in hand to your four in hand. I then drop Duo, Confiscation and Forceful Sentry. You lose your whole hand and have no cards, hand OR field, to my one card in hand. I went from being down four cards to being up one. A switch of a five card stud. I then summon Yata Garasu for game.

A bit extreme, but let's do another. Dark Hole this time.

You have no hand, no backrow and five monsters on the field. I have a set Sangan and no cards in hand. I then top deck Dark Hole. I play Dark Hole and destroy your monsters and mine. I lose two cards to your five. Equalized. 0 to 0. However, Sangan just died. I search my deck for Yata Garasu, summon it and win.

Get it yet?

Delta Four Sicilian

If you're running Broww, you will lose anyway. I'd lead with Forceful Sentry, and save me from any of that.

Spectacular move? That's horrid. Absolutely horrid.

You assuming that I think you have NORMAL MONSTERS in Traditional is laughable.

I AM assuming you'd be running a good deck though. Which, given how you keep replying with off the wall, wouldn't be run in traditional crap, you're obviously not. You'd lose regardless of what I have in my hand with s**t like that. God damn.

EDIT: If you can't understand why things are banned, you should stop playing yugioh. Seriously. Go out and play something else, like Checkers.

Seriously, PLAY ME with traditional. I will OBLITERATE you 100% of the time because you don't understand how card advantage works and how it is the fundamental structure of the game. Play me in advanced and I'd crush you there too.

Delta Four Sicilian

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/The_Forceful_Sentry

I look at your hand, thus I don't use the rest of the s**t in my hand to discard! If you have something that won't negatively effect me I'll Confiscation it away. I'll use Yata to knock away a draw and still have card advantage on you! You don't even know the cards on the banlist and you're trying to defend them?!

Delta Four Sicilian

He said the same thing we've all been saying. THE SAME THING.

Cards need to be BANNED because otherwise the whole game would be dominated by FTKs/OTKs, complete, 100% FTKs and OTKs. It would be VERY BORING.

And if they banned the stuff that made FTKs/OTKs possible, we'd still be left with decks running 20~ of the exact same cards. Frog Monarch decks don't like different from other Frog Monarch decks, but they look different from X Saber decks, at least all but five or six cards. Now imagine all decks would be over 50% of the exact same thing.

It would be very boring, top decks would win regardless of what you did to prevent it. You could top out of a situation that took the opponent three turns to plan and execute by drawing Raigeki, Harpie's Feather, blah blah and equalize the situation.

tl;dr HOW MANY ******** TIMES DO I HAVE TO ******** REPEAT THE SAME ******** ANSWERS TO YOUR SAME ******** QUESTIONS?

Delta Four Sicilian

OKAY!
Harpies Feather Duster one for ones.
Raigeki one for fives, assuming you don't have Witch, Sangan, or, in your case, Neko Mane King.
I Forceful Sentry, you have Sinister Serpent, Broww, Broww, and Thousand Eyes Idol. I send back Serpent. Serpent goes INTO YOUR DECK. I Confiscation, you lose Idol. You now have Broww and Broww to my Duo and Yata Garasu. I summon Yata Garasu and you don't draw. You go, summon, swing for 1400. I draw Snatch Steal. I use it, grab Broww. I summon Yata. Swing for 1600. You don't draw. I now have four to your one. You summon or set Broww. Doesn't matter. You're locked.

I could have drawn Graceful Charity, Pot of Greed, Upstart Goblin x3 (I'd run it in Yata Lock, whatever), Black Luster Soldier, Chaos Emporer, or a plethora of other special summons for the permanent Yata Lock.

Congratulations. You LOST.

The problem with equalizing is that you shouldn't be able to topdeck to equalize when you're down four cards. You've been outplayed up to that point and the opponent deserves to win. Leaving wins to chance and luck instead of strategy and tactics, you know, SKILL makes this game ******** retarded.

Delta Four Sicilian

Snatch Steal
Monster Reborn
Premature Burial
Graceful Charity
Pot of Greed
Upstart Goblin
Upstart Goblin
Upstart Goblin
Dark Hole
Chaos Emporer Dragon - Envoy of the End
Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning
Cyber Dragon
Cyber Dragon
Smashing Ground
14 of the remaining cards in my deck. Assuming that was my opening hand, I have 34 cards left in deck. Two of those won't be useful, so 12 possible cards.

That's 1/3rd of my deck, and any good Yata Lock focused deck.

Or I'll just draw
Tribe Infecting Virus
Snipe Hunter
Mystic Tomato
Thunder King Rai-Oh
Thunder King Rai-Oh

Even MORE s**t I'd use to dominate you.

Yes, deserves to win. Say you're playing chess. You capture all but their Rook and King and you have seven Pawns, two Rooks, a Queen, a Bishop, a Knight, and your King. You have Checkmate in One. Would it be fair if your opponent used Raigeki and destroyed all but your King for game? No, no it would not.

so you were wrong about a card just because a list says so, thats stupid, personally i dont see a problem with the ban list, yea sure there are problems with some cards, you gotta come prepared for some cards. but as i said this is about my deck, you wanna talk about it then send me a message, ide rather not get banned from another yugioh guild.  

[shrab]

SOLIDNSNAKE

shrab

here is a reasoning for the ban list. if their was none then any card including many powerful OTK cards such as yata would come back and the game would become destabilized and be thrown into a chaotic mess of cheap wins and rage quitting which would result in the game ending. and dont even try and say oh everyone can use the same things so its their own fault if they fail because thats not the case. most of the good banned cards since being banned are somewhat hard to come by unless they were made common and if the ban list had never been made then the game wouldnt have survived to this point anyway going off my last explanation. now lets go to new players. a newer player couldnt get into the game worth s**t seeing as they would have to buy into a powerful deck from the very beginning or otherwise be doomed to losing repeatedly and never being able to improve then they get frustrated and rage quit once again preventing the game from going on. i could go on and on with this but ill stop there. honestly yugioh has the best banning system i think of any card game seeing as things like pokemon and magic are douche bags and ban by sets so all those cards you worked so hard to get become worthless and you have to buy more. yugioh simply bans by what is unbalancing the game at the time usually leaving a set tier of decks that are above others. sometimes they ban weird things yes like getting rid of substitoad when it would have made more sense to get rid iof mass driver which usually by itself creates OTKs when the right cards show up(first thing coming to mind being the frog OTK with it and the giga plant OTK with it)

ehh makes some sence, doesnt exactly strike me as cards NEED to be banned but whatev. i dont get many things about the banlist, like what the hell makes certain cards banned at one point and then later not so bad. like for instance, in the thread i was banned from in nexus someone said dark hole is very unfair and should be banned (cause to me its exactly like heavy storm but for monsters) then later in the thread someone stated the new ban list got rid of dark hole and moved it to limited...i think (i dont keep up with it cause i dont use it) and then i think the same person was ok this is fair now.

i dont understand how suddenly a card becomes fair and unfair within seconds just because some list says so. sounds like you guys are followers to me. like monster reborn people tell me its so unfair cause you can get a monster from the graveyard regardless of level so there is no loss. then when it comes off the list "o yea its totally fair"

as for OTK's big deal you ahve to draw it, and yea people can get the cards, why they spend alot of money on these cards they could spend alot of money on 1 super card to help buff there deck up.

it all depends on whats new in the game like what came out and how the meta has changed in terms of how and what people are playing. heavy storm was yes banned because dark hole came back mainly because that was a fair trade off of cards and dark hole is very powerful because it can open your opponent up for an attack or save you when your losing bad but just like heavy it can and will be countered alot by things like stardust therefore making it that much less of a threat. so see before things like stardust came into use those two were much better cards but once the way the game plays changes and people change the way they play certain card gain importance and others lose it. besides thing like that a cards will usually get banned for over domination and some thing will be limited to reduce how powerful a deck is enough to make it fair.