|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:18 am
Nightmare1 Racheling: I think it depends on the genre, personally. I love comic books as much as the next person, but I find a lot of the covers are clearly tailored toward men with the big, muscled, he-man superheroes and scantily clad-heroines in provocative poses. Even the few comics directed at women tend to have a bit more fanservice for men (unless we get into manga, where it is a bit more even for males and females). Oh, I agree. There are a lot of genres still targeted at men (primarily). And comics is definitely one of them. But this is why I think it's silly when I hear complaining whenever one or two genres skew the other way, and why I think that some men don't think it through too hard when they ask for "neutral" covers--they don't mean to say "I want everything to appeal to me/male audiences." But, that's what comes out sometimes because they aren't used to being left out of a targeted audience, whereas female authors have had to fight for recognition in male-dominated genres. Nightmare1 But that does bring up a good point. While I think e-books can never truly replace paper ones, I do agree that is a nice compromise for this, though, since it is financially wise to make covers that appeal more to women. Honestly, I think no one should be ashamed of what they are reading (well...porn should probably stay at home, but if an erotica novel has an innocent cover, who cares?). It's funny, but when some children's/YA books cross over and are shelved in adult, they often have very bland covers, so adults don't feel embarrassed reading a kid's book. Harry Potter had editions like that, and so did His Dark Materials.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:57 am
DesertRoseFallen: I love Zapp too. XD The "Velour Fog" indeed. I think it helps that he is played for comedy, though I do like things that keep the historical period in check. For example, in Mulan, pretty much all the male characters are misogynist to some degree---and that was how it was in ancient China.
I have some female characters who have babies, but chances are if they have a career, they normally keep it along with the child. Minus the rich one who does not need to work, but she wanted to be a mother. I do have a society where women are in traditional roles, but are also free to have a lot of the same opportunities as men---the leader of the country understands that women have their place in things like combat and politics. I do admit it, though; I adore mothering characters. >> But not all my female characters are mothers, or in traditional roles.
The reasons you stated are actually a good reason to bring in more female characters (not saying you, personally, have to, but in-general). I think it is beneficial to show women who are content without children, or who are strong characters regardless of what comes from their loins. As mentioned, Mrs. Weasley may be happy with her family, but that is not all that defines her. In the same vein, 7 is likely never going to have kids (based on what she is; I do not see how they could reproduce), but she is still accepted as an awesome character, and it is clear she does not need to settle down and have a family to be somebody.
Racheling: Personally, I think it is possible for covers to appeal to both genders. When comic books appeal more to female audiences too, then we can discuss other genres.
I have heard about the "adult" Harry Potter covers. Again, if it just text and clearly not something someone is going to be offended by if they glanced at the cover, why does it matter? I think you and I both understand that children's books can be just as engaging as an adult book. And honestly, seeing people read at all makes me happy. It just shows that they have been able to get away from their electronics for a time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
DesertRoseFallen Vice Captain
|
Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:23 pm
Nightmare1 DesertRoseFallen: I love Zapp too. XD The "Velour Fog" indeed. I think it helps that he is played for comedy, though I do like things that keep the historical period in check. For example, in Mulan, pretty much all the male characters are misogynist to some degree---and that was how it was in ancient China. I have some female characters who have babies, but chances are if they have a career, they normally keep it along with the child. Minus the rich one who does not need to work, but she wanted to be a mother. I do have a society where women are in traditional roles, but are also free to have a lot of the same opportunities as men---the leader of the country understands that women have their place in things like combat and politics. I do admit it, though; I adore mothering characters. >> But not all my female characters are mothers, or in traditional roles. The reasons you stated are actually a good reason to bring in more female characters (not saying you, personally, have to, but in-general). I think it is beneficial to show women who are content without children, or who are strong characters regardless of what comes from their loins. As mentioned, Mrs. Weasley may be happy with her family, but that is not all that defines her. In the same vein, 7 is likely never going to have kids (based on what she is; I do not see how they could reproduce), but she is still accepted as an awesome character, and it is clear she does not need to settle down and have a family to be somebody. Yes, they are very good reasons to write with more female characters. Although I write gay fiction, I usually have a strong supportive female side character. My recent one was a hard headed woman who wasn't afraid to say what she wanted to say and looked after my main. So yes, in a way I do convey the strength in women even in my gay fictions haha.
Hahaha, I just love Zapp and his Velour obssession, oh and the way he says Champagne xD Mulan on the other hand is a great example of showing an independant woman next to the strong men of her country. I like that film only because she isn't a typical Disney woman who falls over the first Prince she sees. I respect that strength.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:10 pm
I just love good female characters in-general, regardless of the source. I do want to get back to one of my stories where a female character was the lead. Adding into N's love of genuinely ugly characters, she is a pretty, but insecure girl who gets half of her face smashed in a car accident and has to learn to cope with it and overcome her insecurities.
I think aside from Amelia, the only other Disney woman who really comes to mind is Esmeralda. Tough, street smart, and willing to stand up to a man who can have her head, and also does not fall head over heels for the first man she sees (she grew to love Phoebus, but only after she saw he was nothing like Frollo's other men). Definitely a step up from the book (and one of the rare cases where I liked an adapted version of a character better than the original. Book!Esmeralda was...stupid, and that is putting it nicely).
...Okay, I lied. Jessica Rabbit needs to go on that list too. She was painted as the vamp at first, but she has a heart of gold and a lot of courage. It also does not hurt that she figured out Doom's plan first, and did her best to help Eddie and Roger even when it meant risking her own neck. Also, her faithfulness to Roger is adorable. <3
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:15 pm
Nightmare1 Racheling: I think it depends on the genre, personally. I love comic books as much as the next person, but I find a lot of the covers are clearly tailored toward men with the big, muscled, he-man superheroes and scantily clad-heroines in provocative poses. Even the few comics directed at women tend to have a bit more fanservice for men (unless we get into manga, where it is a bit more even for males and females). We have to remember that comics are primarily written and drawn by men. If you are a man and have to draw a woman how are you going to draw a woman? blaugh So, today while reading Heir to the Empire I started thinking about the Young Jedi Knight characters, mainly Tenel Ka. I think she is an ideal icon for not only feminism but choice. She was heir to the Hape Throne, which she did not want. She wanted to be a Jedi. When she did eventually take the Throne it was because other forces where forcing her hand (her grandmother poisoning her mother, her grandmother trying to get her best friend to marry her father, the Yuuzah Vong War, ect) At that point she made a choice for her people. Tenel Ka is a strong leader who made her own choices. What I thought was interesting was Tenel Ka's mother made the opposite choices. She left behind her uncivilized life to marry a Prince she had captured and claimed as her husband (note, she caught him biggrin ). She left her planet to become a wife and Queen. A fairytale story, right? But it was all her choice! Leia also did the same thing. She chose to not marry said Prince because she didn't love him. She chose to marry Han and have his children. She chose to stay in politics. She chose start her training as a Jedi. She chose to end her training as a Jedi. She chose to begin her training again as a Jedi (those woman, always changing their minds blaugh ) She chose to give up her position as Chief of State. She chose get involved in the Yuuzhan Vong War. In fact, I've noticed between her and Han she wear the pants in the relationship. Think about it, he gave up his whole career as a smuggler to be with this former Princess/Senator/ect. He follows her.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:33 pm
As far as Disney women, I like Mulan, but there's also:
Belle--Smart, strong-willed and does what interests her. Stands up for herself against society's expectations for women and an unwanted suitor. Faces a monster to save her father.
Tiana--Smart and works hard to make her dreams happen. She doesn't get the benefits so many of the other Disney princesses do (fairy godmothers and perfect princes dropped in their laps), and she fights for what she wants and doesn't expect others to stand up for her.
Cinderella is a wet blanket in the original Disney version, but she gets a backbone in the Cinderella 3 (which was actually surprisingly decent for a Disney direct-to-dvd sequel).
Lilo and her older sister Nani--Lilo has a mind of her own and is funny and creative and a little bratty. Nani is basically a single parent, trying to keep guardianship of her sister and holding the family together.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:53 pm
KaNugget We have to remember that comics are primarily written and drawn by men. If you are a man and have to draw a woman how are you going to draw a woman? blaugh If you have any confidence in your work, you will make a few important female characters dress logically. One reason I like Harley Quinn is yes, she is sexy, and yes, she dresses in slut-tastic outfits now and again, but her main costume is functional on top of looking sexy: flat shoes, covers her body, is made of a breathable, stretchy material, and on top of it fits her theme. And most artists realize that ex-gymnast = small chest (it seriously pisses me off when they draw her with DD's. A gymnast would not have them!). I like Catwoman for similar reasons. Ivy...well, she is supposed to be the vamp and uses her plants to fight for her, so I tend to let her outfits slide...but it does annoy me when her outfits ride her crotch/are similar to a thong. For someone who moves a lot and does fight, that cannot be comfortable. Nonetheless, wait until I get a chance to finish my story and make it a comic. My main female wears comfortable, form-fitting clothes (but are still loose enough that they are not skin tight) and only shows a little cleavage---which gets covered by her jacket if she knows she is going to end up in a fight. The jacket is partially bullet-proof. I have never read the Star Wars extended universes (I have barely seen the movies), but I think I just fell in love with Tenel Ka. Racheling: Oh, lots of love to Belle! And you are right, Cinderella III was a surprisingly good sequel.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:01 pm
We've talked a lot about feminism being about choice, but here's another idea. Can't feminism be about responsibility? Men are suppose to be these responsible providers. They are our leaders. I think it's great to look at female leaders who have stood up for oppressed groups, not even female groups, and stood for their convictions.
Also, look at all those women who stand by their husbands and men during tough times. I'm not talking about the wives of adulteries, I think it's awful that society expect them to stand by their husband as he makes his public apology. What did she do? Why is she up there? I'm talking about the wives of presidents, like Michelle Obama. In fact, Michelle is a great feminist icon.
She's become her own person, does her own things, and still supports her husband and provides a nice home for the children.
No matter what choice woman makes she is still responsible for something, whether it is her career or her family. And since she made the choice about her life she is also responsible for her own life. She can't blame her husband for it, it was her choice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:03 pm
That is a very good point.
Harriet Tubman would be my pick for that, actually. She risked her life to help fellow slaves reach the North---with the risk of blacking out. She made it her responsibility to become a conductor on the Underground Railroad, and helped start schools for black children when the war was over, working towards a better life for the black community for the rest of her life. She was one of my heroes as a kid.
Though it does amuse me how historically, a lot of what we would call strong women (Amazons come to mind) were actually stories of why women should not be in power, and used as excuses to keep power and responsibility in the hands of men. But what does intrigue me is that they were partly right. Such societies might not work if the wrong woman is in power, i.e., one who has no idea what they are doing.
At the same time, they are wrong. How many times have bad things happened because of a male ruler? And why is it some of the most revered rulers in history are women? Elizabeth I comes to mind, but also look at ancient Greece: Spartan women ran the city because the men were at war or training as soldiers. When an Athenian woman asked why, a Spartan woman replied, "Because we are the only ones who can birth men!" And some Greek philosophers (I think Plato was one) have admitted some of the best conversations have been with women.
Just something that has always intrigued me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:34 pm
Nightmare1 I have never read the Star Wars extended universes (I have barely seen the movies), but I think I just fell in love with Tenel Ka. My brother thought I should point out that Tenel Ka does in fact come from two Staw Feminist societies, both on her mother's and father's side. But I've never seen her herself as a straw feminist. She always strived not to be like her father's side, mainly her grandmother, and for most of her life donouced that part of her heritage. And while she loved her mother's heritage, she was more a Jedi than anything. She saw her best freinds Jacen and Lowie (both males) as equals to her. Nightmare1 Harriet Tubman would be my pick for that, actually. She risked her life to help fellow slaves reach the North---with the risk of blacking out. She made it her responsibility to become a conductor on the Underground Railroad, and helped start schools for black children when the war was over, working towards a better life for the black community for the rest of her life. She was one of my heroes as a kid. Amen to that! As a kid I was inspired by Helen Keller. Because of the strenght, because she wanted so strongly to communicate with others she changed the way people looked at the mute, deaf, blind, handicap, ect. Different from Harriet Tubman, of course, but still inspiring. Nightmare1 Though it does amuse me how historically, a lot of what we would call strong women (Amazons come to mind) were actually stories of why women should not be in power, and used as excuses to keep power and responsibility in the hands of men. But what does intrigue me is that they were partly right. Such societies might not work if the wrong woman is in power, i.e., one who has no idea what they are doing. At the same time, they are wrong. How many times have bad things happened because of a male ruler? And why is it some of the most revered rulers in history are women? Elizabeth I comes to mind, but also look at ancient Greece: Spartan women ran the city because the men were at war or training as soldiers. When an Athenian woman asked why, a Spartan woman replied, "Because we are the only ones who can birth men!" And some Greek philosophers (I think Plato was one) have admitted some of the best conversations have been with women. Amazon societies have always been interesting to me. I think the idea started because it seems males have so much powers in our, but now woman have gotten more power that this idea seems less liberating and more childish. We really need to settle on fifty-fifty. Perhaps not in real life, people should be choosen based on creditional, if we start choosing more woman, despite under qualification than that's just as sexist, but in fiction I hope more authors will start reflecting this. Today I hear something interesting in an Angelina Jolie interview. Apprently she turned down a role in a James Bond movie because she doesn't want to be in a Bond movie...she wants to be Bond. I'm not about to propose we change James Bond until Jamie Bond, but it's a provocative thought.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:45 pm
So I'm thinking I'm going to write a Satire, a comment on feminists and the media. Basically it would have sterotypical characters from the medai, a straw feminist, a "heroine" who is really just there as a Ms. Fanservies, and it was be written with plot holes on purpose, kind of poking fun of stoires that have plot holes. I got this idea from my fanfic, The young and the Forceless, which pretty much does the same things. My original story, though, will have a completly different plot.
I'm laughing as I write this story. The main character is a prositute. They are always sending her on missions while the guys are doign some killings saying her mission is less important and therefore a girls mission. She always agrees. I the end she's going to change. I think it's funny and kind of true. That's how the media treats females.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:09 pm
Do not forget to have her choose to marry and have a ton of kids and become a housewife. Because female success is family.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:49 am
In my internet-ing I found this chart, and felt it relevant and (in a lot of cases) true in how female characters are presented in the media. Go on and have a chuckle or two at some of the truth.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
