|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:27 am
Dear MPRILC members, in your opinion, is Magic Subjective or Objective? Present your opinion and why you think it is as such, and then discuss with others about theirs. Be open minded about it.
Here's what I mean by Objective and Subjective in terms of magic, but feel free to use your own definitions.
Objective: Can have an effect on reality and on others through your will alone. The magic works through your mind, or through energy, or through a higher power.
Subjective: Reality is effected by the minds of everyone at large. In order to effect magical change on an individual, you must get them to believe that the magical change will happen. In order to effect magical change onto a larger space of reality, you must get a larger number of people to believe that magical change will happen in reality.
Let's see if we can set an example of a discussion thread based on the ideas of guild community, guys.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:52 am
Both.
Some don't accept that reality itself has an objective base, and all our universe is functionally the product of our own mind. Therefore magic can be pretty much just hacking our own Matrix.
A few with more crypto-scientific beliefs think that the universe operates under objectives laws of energy, which we understand, and more subtle laws of energy, which we currently do not, and therefore call magic. I would say the reaction of quantum states to observation is the easiest way to point to a good example of "Oh hey, that's interesting, the mind may have reactions we can't yet explain."
My own personal belief, or rather the belief system I am currently most captivated with would be Zen/Buddhism, wherein "subjectivity and objectivity become one." I confess I do not currently understand the metaphor/statement but find it resonates with truth, and I endeavor to discover it further.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:58 pm
I think that making magic happen will always be an act of will, but I think that the results would be subjective. Where one person might see a successful spell, someone else will see a simple coincidence.
Unless the spell has some manner of time frame set to it (which I typically see as something not regarded highly) then it's rather hard to determine objectively if the spell was a success or failure.
Then again, if the intended result happens then who cares if it was magic or coincidence?
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:57 pm
Oh I love philosophy.
I believe that magic is objective, but has tendencies towards subjectiveness. The power of chicken soup is awesome.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:14 am
Zurine Oh I love philosophy. I believe that magic is objective, but has tendencies towards subjectiveness. The power of chicken soup is awesome. ^ Agreed. I think that some people can have magick forced upon them. While others can negate it by simple disbelief. I feel that it can be objective and subjective at the same time along these lines. Sort of a war between wills.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:49 pm
[BlkCat] Agreed. I think that some people can have magick forced upon them. While others can negate it by simple disbelief. I feel that it can be objective and subjective at the same time along these lines. Sort of a war between wills. Wow...that's almost word for word exactly how I see it. But I came to that view observing how dreams and dreamwalkers work and take effect on one another. How did you come to it? Anyway, it's also the reason why I have such a hard time defining magic and it's objective/subjective nature. At root it's little more than will imposed over energy, but it's the environment that it comes from and interacts with that makes the whole thing so utterly complicated. Something made more so when I believe our shared reality to be little more than a subjective field created by the god(s) responsible. Much like how we create our own realities, especially in dreams. Still...the real question is whether it is necessary to assert our reality over another's for our magic to take effect on them. I really don't think so, but that's because I think magic does not depend on just our individual subjective realities but on the overall reality that we share. Then again, I also think that it is the purpose worked into the magic itself that ultimately determines how it works and thus whether tends more toward objectivity or subjectivity. One thing in particular that I've noticed that supports this is that spells that are objective in nature are more on the passive side. They will work on others and do their job regardless of belief system and will simply present themselves in individual subjective realities in the most acceptable form that most closely resembles its purpose. Subjective spells on the other hand are more of an active nature. They must impose themselves into other realities and alter them to fit the conditions that they require to work. But these kind of spells usually require a lot of power to work or the caster absolutely requires that the results be tangible and real to those affected. So it makes sense they would be made to work this way. Then again, maybe others would see this differently and draw other conclusions.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 2:38 am
Agreed lol
I have found the most Effective spell work though is the one that compromises the persons belief system and works its way into their subjective reality. I also think that part of the nature of having a stronger will is to almost not have things affect you.
To understand is to be able to bend other things to your will because you understand How it could be one way and thus how to make it be another. The best spell work is slow and pervasive working on small things that people take for granted and working them selves slowly deeper into the persons awareness of existance (just look at Earth hahahaha) in some ways because of shared realities and modalities we don't need to impose our reality on another because we are already sharing the core foundation thats needed.
I've noticed most of creating an effective spell is compromising the other person involved. As the persons will is constantly in affect they will be constantly reinforcing what they want, what they believe. I believe that objective reality is a product of will or desire so you are altering their reality by affecting them and its way easier if the person provides you with an avenue
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:55 am
I never understood magic as hostile, or that it may take over any concept of free will. That's bad juju, and I stay away from it. Objectively, I can make a bowl of chicken soup for a friend (as a kitchen witch) who is sick. My intention is to make them (A) Feel better in spirits, (B) make them eat food so they can physically get better. I am not working as a group but it is my will that the chicken soup be a healing process for him/her.
I almost do not believe in subjectivity in magic. Though a small portion of me also knows that there has been studies of people with terminal illness who have been prayed for by families and their friends. I understand that by praying for a very ill person you hold an image of them happy and healthy in your mind. With a large group of people, the ability to press that will on a sick person has the ability to make them feel better, or become physically better.
I believe in objective magic, though I cannot doubt subjective magic also holds some credit in my mind.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:20 pm
Zurine I never understood magic as hostile, or that it may take over any concept of free will. That's bad juju, and I stay away from it. Objectively, I can make a bowl of chicken soup for a friend (as a kitchen witch) who is sick. My intention is to make them (A) Feel better in spirits, (B) make them eat food so they can physically get better. I am not working as a group but it is my will that the chicken soup be a healing process for him/her. I was wondering what you meant by "the power of chicken soup." xd But yeah, this is what I meant about objective magic being passive. It really doesn't involve the other person (at least not directly) and it takes the form closest to its intent. In this case the physical form is a bowl of soup, but the truer from would be the love and care shared through it, which is universally accepted as healing and comforting influence. It's also an extremely hard kind of magic to pinpoint unless you are a natural sensitive as to anyone else it would just appear that they healed by being taken care of and any wish or spell for said healing purely coincidence and not at all a part of the process.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:55 pm
I'm do not really have much thought regarding the topic, since I still have uncertainties regarding existence and other, more 'tangible', things.
However, the mention of free-will and such reminded me of a conversation I had, and I apologize if I've shared this before. It went along the lines of talking about magic and the relatively odd occurrences that seem to take place in that whole world of discussion. The person I was talking to went on to talk about "true", I think they said "real", magic, and how it's kind of 'bad' as what it does is take away the chance for other people to make a choice, a decision that they normally would have been able to make, or maybe should have been able to make. The moral or message was that people sometimes (often) were "robbed" of their free will as a result of such magic.
I think absolutes usually beg to be proven incorrect, but the impression was that said magic, or power, was something that would appear along the lines of a dead end to people seeking it, since it seemed to be one of those things that removed itself from the world, and anyone who would not go along with that would be unlikely to find such in the first place. An old story I suppose.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:56 am
Subrosian Objective: Can have an effect on reality and on others through your will alone. The magic works through your mind, or through energy, or through a higher power. Subjective: Reality is effected by the minds of everyone at large. In order to effect magical change on an individual, you must get them to believe that the magical change will happen. In order to effect magical change onto a larger space of reality, you must get a larger number of people to believe that magical change will happen in reality. So if I understand your personal distinctions correctly, in essence you're saying that in one case magic operates only in the minds of the believer or through psychological (subjective) mechanisms alone, rather than some (objective) force of nature that would operate regardless of the person's belief or disbelief in it? I'd have to err on Joshua_Ritter's opinion and go with both, as it really depends on how magic is defined. The objective aspect makes me think of natural science and the subjective aspect of the social sciences, more than they make me think of magic.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:29 pm
Interesting question.. very fun to think about. heart
I'd like to believe magick is both objective and subjective. The belief of the person "doing magick" may impact the energy and the result significantly, but the energy still has "universal laws of physic-sy-ness" it must follow to manifest on the physical plane. Get what I'm saying?
Energy and free will.. If a person becomes talented enough at containing and controlling magick energy, they can potentially surpass the beliefs of other people on a subconscious level, even if not a physical level. I have become aware of transferring ideas through objects, and picked up energy from objects, so yeh.. Magick is a very interesting thing..
I don't know if this is helpful or not, but there are times when I feel like the subjective and objective merge into a layer of collective subconscious reality.. I don't know what this really is, whether I am deluding myself or if it is a layer few are aware of but anyone can enter.. At this time, it seems as if everything is connected to me. It's like I am in a room with people's spirits, and though the spirits hear me and my thoughts, people's minds don't pick them up unless they are naturally intuitive. I can force thoughts towards my own thoughts or I can let them flow naturally.. I have tested this "theory" a bit, but my results are inconclusive.. My reason for mentioning this is because if the collective subconscious layer I find myself in at times is real, then that would mean it would be incredibly easy to manipulate people that are already open to certain ideas. That means, yes, people can be affected, but it may depend on how open they are to suggestion in this subconscious level.
Keep in mind these are my own observations and I am not saying that this is something anyone else should believe. razz
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|