Welcome to Gaia! ::

Mmm... Here, I think.

As lyme said before, you have to see it from our point of view. If they are killing human beings, what does their safety in the matter have to do with anything? As Lorysa said earlier, if we made rape or murder legal and had little killing/rape clinics, murderers and rapist would be safer. But does that mean it should be legal? Just because it will be safer?

The doctors? No, it shoudl be left to the expectign mother. The doctor has the choice to study the field of abortion, if thats what you mean.

As for a black market trade? That sound pretty ridiculous. Yes, there will, of coarse be "back alley" abortions, but I highly doubt there woudl be a blackmarket for it all. And, besides, you basicly saying it won't stop if we illigleize it. Well, we have made *****, rape, murder, stealing, and possesion of some drugs illigle, but it hasn't stoped any of it from happaning, should we make all of that legal to?

And as long as its a moral issue that grips the nation, it will always be a politicle issue.

The government bay be on thier side, but the scientific evidence is on ours.

And success has nothign to do with the abortion debate or seeing somethign form some one elses point of view. Also, in a debate, you don't just look at one point, you look at them all.

...I really don't understand what you are trying to get at. I never said that the Pro-Choicers had to "appeal" to us. And, in fact, we don't have to "appeal" to them. They aren't the law makers (Well, some law makers are Pro-Choice, but just because you are Pro-Choice doesn't mean you make the laws.) Who we need to "appeal" to is the Supreme Court.

If you mean putting our arguments from the Pro-Choice point of view, we aren't debating in a Pro-Choice guild. Yes, in there, we would have to start at the assumption that no one believes the fetus is a human being, or that killing it is wrong. But in here, we don't. And in the debate threads, we usually know and base our arguments on the knowledge that Pro-Choicers have a certain set of beliefs.

But dear, your target is the prolife crowd. You're trying to tell US why it would be bad. If you want to convince us, you need to appeal to us. If you're directing it at prochoicers, then by all means appeal to them. If you're directing it to the people who make the laws, appeal to both sides, just in case. In this case, though, you're trying to convince people who are prolife that this would be a bad idea, so you are the one who needs to put yourself in our point of view to see what arguments we would listen to and which ones we'd disagree with. The argument you make is one we disagree with. It doesn't convince anyone in here of anything because you're assuming something as universal truth which we do not agree with...that a fetus is not a person. We don't agree with that at all, so your argument that it's worth losing little blobs in order to keep women safe doesn't work. We see those lives as equal. To us, one way, 1.3 million lives are lost each year. The other way, far less than that, taking into account women and fetuses killed by abortion doctors, less than 1.3 million lives are lost.

The potential for death due to abortion is 2.6 million. Of this, only half die.

In places where it's harder to get abortion, studies show women don't get illegal abortions, they're more likely to carry to term.

Let's assume that out of those women, 1/2 decided to go get an illegal abortion, which is actually a generous portion since we know from history as well as our current time that women are even less likely than that to get an abortion if it's not legally available. That's 650,000 women. Out of these, let's assume the worst and 1/4 die. 162,500. Big number. We multiply it by two to account for the fetus dying. 325,000.

Still less than 1,300,000. Even if all of those who got illegal abortions died, it'd be the same number as legal abortions. I'm assuming this won't happen, though, since the doctors providing illegal abortions will be the same ones providing legal abortions. If the doctors really are that incompetent, I fail to see why we'd want them in abortion clinics in the first place.

To someone who is prolife, abortion means 1/2 the people involved (1,300,000/2,600,000) die, but illegal abortion means that 1/8(325,000/2,600,000) of the people involved die. If we take the route that abortion doctors are really butchers, then the same number of people dies. Since those same doctors are currently operating in clinics and I've left out the number of women who die due to illegal abortion now, that statistic is unlikely.

Just because people will commit murder no matter what, does that mean we should not have laws against murder? sweatdrop The fact that people will do it no matter what doesn't make it right.