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I read many stories by people who were being pressured to get one by their mother, family, friends, boyfriend, or husband, when they knew it wasn't the right choice. I could not find the chart which showed circumstances when women get abortions, you know, rape, incest, pressure, etc., but it's somewhere on abortionfacts.com, maybe you can remind me later to find it? And usually, it's the pregnancy that's not wanted. Nobody likes pregnancy (not that I know O.o). But it doesn't mean they don't want the child. They just think they don't want it until it's born, usually. Then that Mother-Child bond starts and the Mom's hormones are back to normal almost so she gets happier again. Haven't you ever read any of them?




What were you told about adoption? We you told every side effect of abortion? The emotinal aftermath, medical complications, the procedures, how adoption is an option that the baby and mother can live with, etc.? That sounds nice! Many of them don't do that. Remember, you only went to one clinic. There've been stories about women who were hardly told anything at all and were basically rushed into having one that very day before they could make a decision, or so it felt like, to them. Pregnancy is not a good thing or bad thing. The good and bad of it is something that is interpreted by the person who is pregnant. Hmm, now that I think about it, who says life is a good thing? Maybe I should start an anti-life campaign (this one for born people, instead), and encourage suicide. Pregnancy isn't the hardest thing in the world. Life is hard. Everything has challenges, If pregnancy were as horrible as everyone portrayed it to be, we would not be here right now.




Wow, you must have had very nice schools. No, I'm serious. Which school do you go to? I was reading through my brother's 9th grade How Rude?! workbook just last year, and they taught a little of abstinence. A little. But they also provided information like who should bring the condoms, how to break up, etc.



I didn't mean that. I mean by selling condoms they are basically selling abortion. They should at least keep them refrigerated so there will be less holes in them. They would most likely go out of buisiness if condoms worked fine, you know. And they know that. Also, once again, you've only been to one, maybe two, abortion chambers. Remember, there are still about 700 out there.



Why?

I was not even aware that had a religious title, nor do I care. Biased and invalid are two different things. JerichoLife.org provides notes for its' facts, with sources from unbiased books. Isn't that good enough? Sheesh.



Who? Why do so many of you label everything as fake? And then, if they admit that they're real, showing them is, "Disrespectful to the dead" (even though they're disrespectful to the living)?

Once I was in a debate, and I posted a link to these pictures. (I'm not asking you to click if you wouldn't like to see, it was just for reference)

They said they were fake, just because the site was biased. They didn't even bother to read this:



Some people might make fake dolls and photos and do what you said once-in-a-while, but not everything is fake when people want them to be.



Which is disgusting. They can find ways to get it out and let it live. They nurse pre-borns back to health. Why not these little guys?



Again, you've only been to one or two, I'm guessing...



That's fine, I need to go for a bit, too. It's actually kind of disturbing to think about when you see how large the holes can get. In fact, people may as well not use them at all.

And again, I close this post with an apology for sounding rude. I've been sounding more like this when I debate, lately. I might be back to normal later, though.

And I've probably read or heard an equal number of stories of people who got the abortion simply because they didn't want the child, no pressure added. It's impossible to tell who truly was pressured and who was simply doing what they thought was responsible.



Adoption: I was told alot about it. Too much in fact for the base reason that we weren't there for an abortion, we were there for some Birth Control. They kept pushing it at us. It was actually very disturbing.
Abortion: The side effects, the possible depression, all that stuff came up. It's kinda annoying how thourough they were.
Pregnancy: I agree, it's a subjective thing. That was kinda my point. The pro-life side keeps kinda pushing "Pregnancy is a beautiful thing and if you don't like it you're a heinous b***h that should be sterilized!" (Yes, I have heard that, verbatum, from a 'lifer).



It was a public school I went to Peoria High School in Arizona. They teach naught but abstinence in the school, and when I questioned my teachers on it, they referred me to the district regulations which stated that abstinance was the only thing they were allowed to teach in school, and that a rather vague punishment would be handed down to those that didn't follow the guideline. Maybe it's just Arizona? Because they do that at Centennial, Millenium, Catalina Foothills, Paradise Valley, and every other major public school in the state.

I didn't mean that. I mean by selling condoms they are basically selling abortion. They should at least keep them refrigerated so there will be less holes in them. They would most likely go out of buisiness if condoms worked fine, you know. And they know that. Also, once again, you've only been to one, maybe two, abortion chambers. Remember, there are still about 700 out there.

True, I've only been to two, but how many have you been to? Have you been to every single doctor and clinic that supplies abortions? No. And neither have I, therefor we can't definitvly know that every doctor or clinic follows the guidelines. But at both of the PP's I've been to, they have. To the letter. Beyond that in fact. So I tend to think that while there may be other erroneus data out there, thus far, my information has yet to show that. Also, to the condoms thing, so every minimart, grocery store, and every other place that sells condoms is selling abortions too? That seems like you're twisting your logic... Contraceptives are in place to prevent pregnancy, not to promote abortion.

Why?

I was not even aware that had a religious title, nor do I care. Biased and invalid are two different things. JerichoLife.org provides notes for its' facts, with sources from unbiased books. Isn't that good enough? Sheesh.

Jericho is a guy from the bible. And the "unbiased" books they have? Yeah, they're actually from pro-life/anti-abortionist advocates, same for abortionfacts.com. Hence why they keep referring to pro-choice as pro-abortion. Pro-abortion advocates the aborting of every fetus, pro-choice advocates choice for women. It's a very important difference.


I'm not labeling everything as fake, I'm labeling the 20 week old stillborn baby that reverand what's his face used to start a riot in NYC over a fake and a lie. If you have an actual picture of an abortion, then fine, if you have a 20 week old dead baby you're trying to exploit for rabble rousing purposes, I'd like to stab your eyes out. There's a difference between providing credible evidence (which you are trying to do) and attempting to decieve the major populace with emotionally propelled lies.


I don't believe they are all fake, these are in fact, accurate and real. But these aren't the types of photos I was speaking of. I'm sorry if I came off sounding like I was condemning all photographic evidence that you have (or any pro-lifers have) supplied, I was merely speaking of the fake ones. The legitimate ones are just fine with me.



Sometimes they can't, like entropic (or however it's spelled) pregnancies where the fetus grows inside the tubes and will eventually burst, killing the mother and child simultaneously. In cases where they can, I'm guessing they are going to try.



Indeed. But I'm also guessing you've been to none.


And again, I say it's fine. I know you're not trying to be rude and you're just trying to have an intelligent debate.

Ah, excuse me? I'd like to respond to this.

I read all of what you said, and I understood what you said. Please don't assume I'm an idiot, or a fool, or just... malicious in general. I don't like people making assumptions about me, honestly.

Here was my point: You aren't looking to teach people, or to help us learn. You simply want us to debate with you, so you can make your points. It's a little different. People who want us to learn are probably going to tell us something that we don't know. I'm going to assume that all the pro-lifers in this guild have heard, time and time again, ad nauseum, the points that you're putting forth. That's not teaching us, that's trying to start an argument.

Honestly, I would have no problem with you being here, if you were only a little open to hearing the pro-life side. But you're not-- you're CLEARLY 100% pro-choice. This isn't a debate guild, dear.

Also, just so you know, I'm male, despite my avatar. A gay male, actually. And I was pro-choice up until about 2 weeks ago, give or take. But I just couldn't take being pro-choice anymore, because of what it stood for. You'll understand my point if you read the thread I made-- A pro-choice precedent.

I know you weren't ATTACKING the pro-life side-- but you were being condescending in your phrasing of things within your opening post. Perhaps you don't see it that way because you think you're trying to help us learn, and find some way to be good debaters, but it really seems like you think you're telling us stuff we don't already know, or something.

Anyway. I think I'm rambling. But just so you know--



Not to defend this or anything, as I find those pictures repulsive and horrible to look at, but doesn't a stillborn child and an aborted child, no matter how old, have a lot in common? They both died, they're both out of the womb, they're both human children... A child is a child, all the way through the birth. Despite the way they died.

Though I don't agree with lying or coersion like that, I can see why they would. They see it as the same thing-- A sad picture of a dead child. Abortion produces that, too. Despite how small it is.

I'm going to agree with Adrian on this one. Darkfire keep yourself civil, you're in the pro-life guild if you want to promote learning, promote learning for yourself. Don't come on OUR territory and FORCE "learning".

Which it isn't, by the way as you don't know half the words that you're spouting out.

As far as pressuring women, it's like Cyanna said earlier; They have a reason besides "I don't want it," almost every time, and if they don't then even most Pro-Choicers would consider them selfish, even if they wouldn't refuse them an abortion. And those reasons are often touted by the Pro-Choice movement; Financial troubles, too young, single mother, etc. These reasons are held up high and put as good reasons, even though there are programs in place to handle many of them, the Pro-Choice movement would rather not talk about them.

For the abortion clinics: It sounds like you were very lucky. I've heard and read in responsible, as non-biased as possible newspapers about clinics that go as far as to not stop an abortion once they've gotten the woman in the room.

And we usually go by the Planned Parenthood internet site when we talk about how PP tries to spread bad information.

For the public school system, it must be an Arizona thing, because I know that friends in Virginia, Texas, and California have had more comprehensive programs.

For Jericholife.org: Of course they are using Pro-Life studies. Pro-Choice studies would find some way to be Pro-Choice in their studies, and there's pretty much no such thing as an unbiased study on this subject; Just about everyone has an opinion.
Those are very rare, and in the cases where they do exist, pretty much all Pro-Lifers are for a procedure to save the mother's life. But it's not really an abortion, because it is in self defense, and the child isn't sucked out of the womb; The whole fallopian tube is removed, I believe. The child dying really is a side effect of the operation, in those instances.

Yes, it does mean that she did not want to get pregnant. But it does not mean that the woman absolutely is not willing to have a baby, or that the woman would not have to be pressured to have an abortion.

Many Pro-Lifers use BC; That does not mean that they will abort should they get pregnant.

All I'm trying to say is that, just because the site says that the largest percentage of people getting abortion are married, and were using BC when they got pregnant does not mean that the largest percentage were not pressured in any way. For one thing, the husband could have been angry at her for getting pregnant, or she could be afraid to let her husband know that she forgot a pill, or her husband might not want the baby, or her friends could have been the ones who convinced her that having a baby is a horrible thing, and any of those reasons could also be part of the reason she was using BC to begin with.

I don't know if you affiliate at all with the Gaian Pro-Choice guild, but I could name at least one of their members whom I have seen vehemently telling a girl in the "Life Issues" forum that she should get an abortion, when she said in her first post that she wanted to keep the baby and was only their for moral support. If I still had a link to the thread, I could finger at least three others. All of whom are big Pro-Choice debators on Gaia.

I would argue that that is because they have been taught and conditioned in such a way as to believe that.

By the way, conditioning =/= bad; We are all conditioned with all sorts of things, from the belief that the moon is -not- made of cheese, to the idea that 1+1=2. Conditioning is not just brain washing, it's our beliefs and teachings as we grow up.
Ah, slight difference. A) The urethra is quite a lot smaller then the birth canal, and B) The urethra was not (designed/evolved/grown) to deliver a child from.
I never said anyone should have a couple dozen kids. wink

Again, conditioning. Pregnancy isn't bad until you make it bad. If people weren't told that it is "torture and involuntary servitude" to use your words, over and over by their peers, then they wouldn't think of it as bad.
I would say that Arizona is just surprisingly more conservative then I thought, and that you were lucky that people like that worked at the clinics that you went to.

If you'll read the thread I just made today, I would argue that PP has much to gain by lying, monetarily, while the Pro-Life movement has nothing to gain but bragging rights.

...But it was a fetus that was 20 weeks old, out of the womb or in, they look about the same. Again I say that it was a dispicable act to misuse a dead body like that, but a 20 week old fetus is a 20 week old fetus, victim of abortion or stillborn.

Well we only got rid of partial birth abortion within the past few years, so obviously there are people who fight for it. And the Pro-Choice guild, going by what I've seen of their threads, has many people who are for on demand abortions at any point of time. After all, if it should be okay to abort the baby in the first trimester, why is it not okay to abort it in the second, or the third?

By the way, xp is done with colons before and after the XP part. xd Just sayin'