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I agree. I don't believe that most are pushed by the family.

But I do believe that it is pushed in some way, shape or form.

There still has to be a reason why though. I do not believe the very large majority of abortions are done simply because the mother just wants to. I refuse to believe that most women do not have a motive to abort other then to get rid of the kid. "I want to abort." I have a very hard time believing that most humans are that shallow. There has to be a reason. "I want to abort because..." And I think deep down, most woman do actually have an unspoken reason behind the decision.

Something is still making this woman feel uncomfortable about having a kid. It could be because of a job, her partner...it could be family but it doesn't have to be. "Pushing" doesn't neccessarily mean outright telling someone "you HAVE to do this". All it takes is a little encouragement in either direction to bring someone to a decision. And if a woman is surrounded by an environment that discourages motherhood...well that alone is encouragement to abort. No "pushing" in the more violent sense is needed.

If society stops giving the mothers a reason to abort, the numbers will just drop on their own whether it's legal or not.

I had a friend who did some research about PP, and she did not find much mention of other options besides abortion. They even misrepresented adoption:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/monenigme/162631.html

That last line about abstinence is wrong. It is not the only measure taught in our schools. You cannot say that across the board. I'm sure that in some schools, yes, it is, but it most certainly was not taught at all in my school. What they taught was safe sex, contraceptives, and how to perform exams for cancer.

Edit: That's safe sex as in how not to get a disease, not how to avoid becoming pregnant.

So... LEARNING, to you, means spreading your own form of propaganda around this guild, while at the same time saying that your side is the truth, and our side is propaganda? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me in terms of promoting 'learning'.

You know what's the biggest lie perpetrated by the pro-choice side? That it's not a human being. You use that to justify killing it, and that is wrong on so many levels.

Even during my sojourn into pro-choiceness, I never said that it wasn't a human being. You can bandy around personhood all you like, but the point is this-- what the fetus is, is a child. It becomes a baby when it is birthed, but it is a human being all the way through the birth-- and if your side can deny it, I don't know what else there is to say.

You don't have a RIGHT to kill another human being. You may have the CHOICE, but you won't have the right.

Not to be disrespectful, of course. Because making a thread, calling our beliefs 'lies', and assuming that we believe lies without looking at all sides, and then saying that we just need to be intelligent isn't rude at all. Nope..

It's just so very condescending.

Much as I love pointing out the flaws in the prolife arguments, which believe me I do (ask anyone who's said to me that adoption's great..) The disclaimer reminds me strongly of Jack Chick. "We love Catholics. That's why we tell them they're going to hell and they're evil and they're also satan. It's not their faults that the antichrist, namely the pope, has tricked them into believing lies. Have a nice day."

Bitter? Me? Oh no. I love Jack Chick. Just as much as he loves Catholics.

Anyway, while I wouldn't go as far as Adrian, I'd still say I agree that it's a bit condescending.

How many women do you know have had abortions for the sake of aborting? Like Cyanna said, there's a reason behind it. Pressure doesn't only come from your family. Today, it comes from society as well. There are women who abort in order to keep their jobs. If they were protected in a way where abortion wouldn't be necessary to finish school, move on with a career, afford to care for their families, then there wouldn't be as many abortions. The money that is spent on abortion could be spent on programs to help pregnant women do what they want to do, and not what they feel they need to do.

If the adoption system was fixed up, if schools and offices were regulated somehow so they wouldn't be able to fire or kick out someone for being pregnant, if women were taken care of, this wouldn't be an issue. The only people who would abort would be the ones who truly wanted to abort, and didn't feel the need to despite whatever they wanted to do.

Go into a clinic and ask how many women in there are happy with aborting. Ask them why they're having abortions. If they all tell you that it's because they feel like it, I'll concede that you may be right and 1.2 million women have no qualms about creating life and then destroying it.

Planned Parenthood is required to, but they don't always do that.

And yes, it is touted as the best choice. Maybe since you're a guy, you don't get that propaganda blasted at you, but I do. Women are looked down on for keeping their children if an abortion would have been easier on her family. Planned Parenthood lists a reason of, "Partner or family wants to abort," as a reason why many women abort in their FAQs. Even they admit that women don't always make the choice. I live in an area where women are faced with the decision to abort or be fired. Not for being pregnant, of course, they find other things to fire them for, but women have successfully won cases against companies for that treatment, if the women had enough money to fight it in court. A few days off for an abortion costs less to a company than giving a woman maternity leave. I have had guys tell me they think it's oh so selfish for a woman to keep a child when the man doesn't want to. They were promptly dumped, but that is seriously not a way to impress a girl. "I want to deposit my sperm in you without any of the responsibilities my actions may come with," is what it comes down to.

I'm sorry, but this is not propaganda. Try calling up planned parenthood, and saying you're young and pregnant and don't know what to do. See what they recommend, even if you say you're opposed to abortion. Well, I suppose you could say your girlfriend is young and pregnant, etc. I'm not a guy, but I always wanted to try calling them up and asking how I could convince my girlfriend to get an abortion, just to see what they'd say. Because when I called up saying I was pregnant, I know exactly what they were selling me, and it wasn't adoption.

I'm not trying to spread propaganda rolleyes It isn't propaganda to say that the information your disseminating is innacurate. It isn't propaganda to say that several high profile leaders of the pro-life side have lied and misconstrued information.

I wasn't calling your beliefs "lies" I was asking for inaccurate information to stop being disseminated. I haven't seen any actual lies on the side of pro-choicers or I'd be telling them to stop too. I'm not being condesceding, you're just unable to read what I was saying and comprehend it.

Screw this post-- it was just venting, as far as I'm concerned.

I still think that if you're in here to 'promote learning', darkfire, you're in the wrong place.

We KNOW everything you're saying, and will say. Most of us have been in enough debates to know the "he-said, she-said" of it all.

I just don't think you realize how condescending you sound when you say you're in here to 'promote learning', and you spout the same stuff we've all heard from every pro-choicer.

You're not promoting learning-- you're looking for an argument, or a debate.

And this isn't the abortion debate guild.

Ahh, you say that you are not trying to be condescending, but then you say that it is hard for us to understand things, and that we are "unable to read and comprehend" what you are saying. That sounds condescending to me, however you slice it.

As for "most abortions being obtained by women who didn't want the baby," just because they weren't trying to get a baby does not mean that their intent was to not get a baby period. Just because a baby is an accident, and the BC failed, does not mean that they would instantly go for an abortion.

And just because they are married does not mean that they were not pressured by their significant other or their family or their friends or the Pro-Choice movement. Too many times have I heard Pro-Choicers say that, should you get pregnant at a young age or unmarried etc, that the only "responsible" choice is to have an abortion. Over and over. It doesn't matter if the person who is pregnant has said that abortion is out of the picture. I've heard and seen it so many times that I find it hard to believe that the Pro-Choice movement can be seen as -not- pressing young women into having abortions.

My mother has been pregnant 7 times since my birth, and she has never acted like it was shear torture. Not that it's a walk in the park, but it's not nine months of torment. There are moments that are down right beautiful, like when the baby starts kicking. Or when you can hear the heartbeat, or see the baby moving on the sonogram. And my mom has always told me about how you can -feel- the new life, and how she doesn't understand how someone who has had kids can have an abortion, because the baby -feels- alive in you, and you have been through the entire process before, you've seen how it ends.

And, in labor, there are certain natural anasthesias, not to mention the artificial ones that are often used.

The idea that pregnancy is a -bad- thing is something that seems to have been ingrained into the Pro-Choice side. Why must it be bad? To think that "Pregnancy is bad, but babies are good" seems oximoronic. To have babies you must have pregnancy. Again, not that pregnancy is a walk in the park, but that does not mean it is "bad." It is difficult at times, for some more then others, but that does not make it bad. There's all sorts of things like that. Exercise is difficult and annoying at times, but it's not a "bad" thing. And, I would say, since the outcome is good, exercise is good.

And yes, violent picketers are not good people. sad

Could you please give sources? Because I find that extremely hard to believe.

That your school was abstinence only, I can accept. That the entire US public school system uses abstinence only, I cannot. I have too many friends who have gone through the public school system.

Just because they don't sell only abortion does not mean that they don't sell it, or that they do not make a large profit off of it. And they tell you -their- statistics on the risks of abortion and birth; And they have a lot more to gain from you choosing abortion should the time come, then they do you choosing birth.

Also, just because they give you information does not mean that they give you the correct information.

At least she used a source. And PP is also biased, and, I would say, more questionable then most Pro-Life sources because they stand to gain monetarily through abortion, whereas the Pro-Life sources only stand to gain a "win," if they are lying.

And that is a horrible condemnable thing, I would consider it grave robbing. And why do you accent the 20 weeks and 4 months, when they are about equal? I can understand the problem with them calling a stillborn the product of abortion, but not the fact that you measured it's age two different ways when they could conceivably be about equal, a month being 4-5 weeks long.

Yet some Pro-Choicers fight for the right to abort then too.

Have you ever compared what PP says against other sources? Did the PP councelor/staff member make any of the other choices sound more or equally favorable in comparison to abortion?