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Ceribri
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:45 am


knightofthe21stcentury
I can tell that this thread is going to turn into "Is the doctor half human or not?".

We don't necessarily know how Timelords reproduce, so yes.

At least we're one of the mature threads out there on the internet. razz
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:55 pm


Mishytwin
long time ago when i was a kid the Doctor would travel around with his granddaughter. And then comes jenny so how many did he actually have?


I wrote the following a while ago (before The Doctor's Daughter) so it's now both a little out of date and prone to make me blush at all the details I need to edit in.

I still think many might find it quite helpful though...

Richard_Swift
Since we're here, I thought I'd put together a few notes on what various sources have told us about the Doctor's family. I've drawn on on televised and untelevised material, but hopefully I've been clear about what comes from where so anyone can ignore the bits they're inclined to and we can avoid a canon debate. Though if you do want one of those I've a thread here for that sort of thing.

"I have other families"


The English Series - The Sixties.
The Doctor has a Grandaughter called Susan who invented the word TARDIS. Behind-the-scenes documents tell us they're survivors of a cosmic war in the 51st Century which may have destroyed thier own world.

Of course, once the Time Lords and, later, Gallifrey were introduced then all that untelevised "last survivors/cosmic war" backstory went out of the window. Who knows though, maybe someone will find a use for that angle someday? wink

The Doctor has a wider family but something, implictly (but by no means certainly) thier being dead, prevents him from being with them. He remembers them fondly but the rest of the time they "sleep in his mind"

('Sleep in my mind' is a very interesting turn of phrase once we learn in The Deadly Assassin that dead Time Lords can be stored as data and once we learn in The Gallifrey Chronicles that such data can be stored in the minds of other Time Lords. With those two facts in play it almost sounds like the Doctor is saying he carries 'back-ups' of his family. eek )

TV Comic

Sixties licensees of Doctor Who seem to have had to pay out individually for the different bits of Doctor Who intellectual property they wanted to use rather than getting the whole format as a package. Those making the Doctor Who strip for TV Comic didn't fancy shelling out for the series changing roster of companions, so instead stuck with thier own creations...

John and Gillian, the Doctor's grandchildren.

A bland and anodyne pair, John and Gillian were much younger than any TV companion and seem more to me like Enid Blyton characters of the sort of infuriatingly wet kind that I always wished would fall off thier 'Magic Wishing Chair' or from the top of thier 'Magic Faraway Tree' and snap thier well-scrubbed necks.

They travelled with both the first and second Doctors never noticing that he'd changed, or if they did notice never judging it worthy of comment. Eventually he managed to ditch them by packing them off to university on the planet Zebedee.

In the continuity of the novels then these comics have been established as having occured in the Land of Fiction, and in the continuity of the DWM comic then they've been established as having been a dream the Doctor had. However, there're continuity references to these stories in The Infinite Quest and (arguably) The Shakespere Code, so for all we know John and Gillian might still be working on post-Doctoral studies at Zebedee University.

The English Series - The Seventies and Eighties (Except the last two seasons. We'll get to them later.)

Time and the Rani suggests he has a notably idle uncle.

In Planet of Fire The Master dies one of his many comic-book pretend deaths with a "How can you do this to your own..."

As the sentance was left unfinished then lots of people seem to think the missing word was 'brother'. They've been watching too much television. Lance Parkin mischeviously points out that 'husband' also fits. More boringly, so does 'kind'.

Another possibility relates to what Barry Letts, producer of the Pertwee era, had planned for the Third Doctor's swansong. 'Regeneration' as we think of it now hadn't really been invented in the early 70's (despite two transformations which were later retconned as having been 'regenerations') so the plan for the birth of the Fourth Doctor was to reveal the 'truth' about the Master - that (*drumroll*) he and the Doctor were two halves of the same person - and have them merge to become one entity.

It's probably for the best none of that made it to the screen, but there's a tiny hint of it in Logopolis where the Doctor says of the Master, "In many ways we have the same mind."

There's a fleeting mention of 'The Braxiatel Collection' in City of Death - This will be important later.

The Brain of Morbius establishes that the Doctor's life goes back further than the guy we the think of as being 'The First Doctor'. This is subsequently contradicted by The Five Doctors - This will be important later.

The American Telemovie and the Leekly Bible.

Oh dear.

The American Telemovie was the end product of a complex series of different scripts and documents, all of which were pants. Most horrifying of all of these is the so called 'Leekly Bible', which would have been the series template had the American Telemovie gone with a 'reboot' and managed to go on longer than eighty-five minutes. As, thankfully on both counts, the American telemovie neither rebooted Doctor Who nor went on longer than eighty-five minutes then little of this stuff got on screen. But a few crumbs of it did, and it's all there lurking inside the script's DNA.

Before we get into it, here's the quick guide to Hollywood's relationship with Joeseph Campbell or, as I call it, "Why Mainstream Fantasy and SF Have Been s**t For Decades"

The Quick Guide to Hollywood's Relationship with Joseph Campbell
or
Why Mainstream Fantasy and SF Have Been s**t For Decades


  • Bloke called Joseph Campbell writes book proving that all the myths of the world are really just versions of the same story. He achevies this using the startlingly effective method of ignoring all the tricky bits which show they aren't.

  • Bloke called George Lucas adapts Joseph Campbell's 'mono-myth' into a film. Calls it Star Wars.

  • Star Wars does quite well for itself.

  • Hollywood thus comes to belive it has found the 'formula for myth'.

  • Scriptwriting classes pound these ideas into the heads of creative people until generations of writers are produced who belive that thier sole job is to reiterate Campbell's 'one big story' in various different forms.

  • Everything goes to hell to the extent that people like J. Michael Straczynski are mistaken for talents.


Doctor Who had, thus far escaped any attempts to make it 'fit' into anything. But it's number was up. The Leekley Bible was a wholesale attempt to make the story fit into the monomyth. After all, that's what all stories are really, aren't they? Just some naughty stories like Doctor Who don't know that yet. They need to be taught how to behave.

So Doctor Who becomes a big dynastic epic in which the Doctor is the Chosen One, foretold since the time of Rassilon as he who would find the Lost Scrolls and lead his world out of darkness. Hardly suprising since he's now a direct descendant of Rassilion. rolleyes

No, wait. It gets worse. He's descended from Rassilon via his grandfather Borusa (Borusa!). As is his brother...(*drumroll*)...The Master! You saw that one coming, right? Some people watch too much television.

A new addition to the family tree, rather than an old character unconvincingly grafted onto is, is Ulysses, the Master and the Doctor's new daddy. It seems that after fathering the Master, Ulysses got an Earth-woman up the duff and produced a half-human/half Time Lord kiddy which he sent back to Gallifrey to be raised as the Doctor. He then got lost the depths of time. Most likely to avoid paying child maintenance while he gads around impregnating Bandrills, Slitheen and Voord if you ask me.

Anyway, Doctor Who is turned into this big 'brother versus brother' feud, while the Doctor's travels in space and time are explained as him searching for his missing daddy. Oh, and grandpa Borusa becomes a ghost who lives inside the TARDIS.

Happily, not too much of this makes its way onto the screen, but it's because of all this backstory that the Eighth Doctor starts claiming to be half-human on his mother's side and tediously remenisicing about his dad.


The Cartmel Masterplan - The Last Two Seasons of the English Series and the New Adventures

Despite the last two seasons of the English Series obviously coming before the American Telemovie, I've a good reason for writing about them now. The key writers of that era (Cartmel, Aaronovitch and Platt) began a storyline in the TV show that, after cancellation, they continued and concluded in the New Adventures novels. The timing of this meant that the ending to that storyline (Lungbarrow) had to swerve to accomadate the telemovie's "I'm half-human" stuff.

So come with me now, back to Rememberance of the Daleks, to the novelisation as much as to the episode since it gives much more detail. That's the begining of what fans call 'The Cartmel Masterplan', perhaps unfairly since the ideas were mostly Platt's. It's a storyline that works a lot better when its revealed slowly over twenty-eight episodes and sixty novels than it does when sumarised in a few paragraphs on an internet forum, so be kind.

The universe was originally a place of superstition, magic and irrationality and at its heart was the Empire of Gallifrey, ruled by a line of witch-queens and seers called the Pythia.

The Pythia came to be challenged by an alliance of three pioneers. Rassilion, Omega and a mysterious 'Other', a traveller not native to Gallifrey.

Rassilion overthrow the Pythia and implemented a new order based on reason and science. As she died the Pythia cursed Gallifrey's new Lords to infertility. Their lifeless and sterile science would be rewarded with a lifeless and sterile world.

The Time Lords adapted by granting of thier Houses a 'Loom', a genetic database that would produce an alloted number of cousins for each House. Time Lords were not born, but Loomed and had no mothers, fathers or brothers - all the members of a House considered each other to be Cousins.

When Omega appeared to sacrifice himself to allow the Gallifreyans to truly become the Lords of Time, Rassilion's rule began to turn despotic and tyrannical. The Other sought to escape Gallifrey, but with all the exits sealed his only option was to throw himself into the Looms and await eventual rebirth.

Fast forward ten million years.

A Time Lord who will become know as the Doctor is Loomed to the House of Lungbarrow.

One of fourty-five cousins, the Doctor is eventually disowned by the House for a number of reasons. Not the least of being that certain genetic iregularities suggest he's not a member of the House of Lungbarrow at all.

The First Doctor eventually flees Gallifrey, the Hand of Omega boosts the power of the rubbish old TARDIS he's stolen and sends him, impossibly, back along Gallifrey's timeline. Back ten million years to the time of Rassilon. There he meets Susan, the granddaughter of the Other. Except she seems to think that the Doctor is her grandfather. And he somehow knows her name without being told. She joins him aboard the TARDIS and...well, and then the whole of the English TV series happens.

673 years later, the Seventh Doctor returns to the House of Lungbarrow. Lots happens. The most important thing though is that President Romana overturns the Pythia's curse of sterility on Gallifrey. Time Lords are sexual again - just in time for Eight, Nine and Ten to start kissing thier way across the cosmos.

The first child concived on the newly fertile Gallifrey is that of Andred (a Time Lord) and Leela (a human). The Doctor instructs that this unusual child be named after him.

Right, so the story that's being implied here is pretty clear. There was this bloke called the Other who chucked himself into a Loom thingy. Ten million years later he gets 'reLoomed' as the Doctor. A child who's half-human (on his mother's side) is born, who someday travels back in time to become the Other.

But here's the thing... that's never actually said. All this might seem like bad fanfic when condensed down to these few terse paragraphs, but Lungbarrow is a very well-written novel and its best trick is that it manages to give satisfying answers to the questions raised over the previous twenty-eight episodes and sixty novels without forcing anyone to accept those answers as definative. The producers of LOST would do well to study Lungbarrow before sitting down to write thier final script.

Sure there's a solid story there of how Leela and Andred's son became the Other who in turn became the Doctor, but all of that is revealed by deductions, dreams, and even by puppet shows. There's plenty of space there for it to be possible that it didn't happen that way at all.

In fact...there's the outstanding matter of the Doctor's belly-button. Lungbarrow makes much of the fact the Doctor's got one which, if he'd been Loomed at all, he shouldn't. It's never been explained but it certainly seems to suggest that the Doctor had a natural birth.

As the Seventh Doctor tells the House of Lungbarrow as they disown him for a second time, "I have other families."

The Parkin Masterplan.

Those faces of pre-Hartnell Doctors from The Brain of Morbius?
Well obviously under the 'Cartmel Masterplan' they're supposed to be the faces of 'The Other'. Lance Parkin seems to be having none of this however, and in the Missing Adventure Cold Fusion suggests that there simply were pre-Hartnell Doctors.

One of these previous incarnations was apparently married to a Time Lady called Patience, and the family tree that builds up around them recurrs in Parkin's EDAs and PDAs and in those of Kate Orman and Jon Blum.

Patience was a very ancient womb-born Gallifreyan, who had previously been married to Omega (which I find a bit creepy) and also been the Doctor's nursemaid (which I find very creepy). A pre-Hartnell Doctor married her and they had thirteen children together. It seems the 'Pythia's curse' was as much political propaganda and social control as a real curse, as the Presidency clamped down on non-Loom births.

It was a time of great unrest. The Capitol was burning and mobs were storming the Panopticon. The President ordered that the Doctor's family home be searched for womb-born and his thirteen children were dragged out and his granddaughter about to be executed.

Where was the Doctor during all this? We don't know, and neither does he. Something's erased his memory of the whole thing. But who should come to the rescue again? Yes, it's the 'First' Doctor! Once more travelling naughtily back along his timeline. The 'First' Doctor gets Patience to safety and sends his earlier self's granddaughter back into the ancient past.

So now it looks like what happens is...
- The Other lived on Ancient Gallifrey.

- The 'Pre-First' Doctor lived in Gallifrey's recent past.

- The Doctor lost his memories of this life and was somehow Loomed, or somehow faked his Looming, to be born to the House of Lungbarrow as 'The First Doctor'.

- The 'Pre-First' Doctor had a grandchild, Susan who was placed in danger.

- Fleeing Present Gallifrey, 'the First Doctor' rescued baby Susan from Recent Past Gallifrey and took her back to ancient Gallifrey to be raised by the Other.

- The 'First Doctor' then revisited Ancient Gallifrey sometime later, after the 'death' of the Other, and is rejoined by teen Susan.

All perfectly simple. How could anyone find that convoluted? wink

Now, here's the other thing. This 'Pre-First' Doctor. He's definately not Loom-born. We even know who his mum and dad are. The Doctor's Mum turns out to be Penelope Gate, a rather awesome human 'steampunk' Victorian time-traveller who first appears in Kate Orman's New Adventure The Room With No Doors.

And the Doctor's dad is...brace yourself...he's that bloody Ulysses from the telemovie backstory! There's some nice wordplay this time round though as when he turns up in a story he's going under the alias of 'Joyce'.

Right then, onto Miranda. She's the child of some sort of future space emperor guy who the Eighth Doctor raises as his own daughter in the novel Father Time. Well that's nice and simple. Except that Miranda's real dad from the future...the two things we know about him are that he was the last of his species and that he had two hearts. So it seems that although not the child of the Doctor who raised her, she was nevertheless the Doctor's daughter. Probably. I don't know. She's dead now anyway, having snuffed it under circumstances to stoopid for me to go into And I went into the circumstances of the Leekly Bible, don't you forget.


Braxiatel
Owner of the famed collection, Braxiatel first appears in the New Adventure Theatre of War. He goes on to feature in the First Doctor MA Empire of Glass, and to be a very major character in the Bernice novels and audios and in Big Finish's three seasons of Gallifrey audios.

The novel Tears of the Oracle pretty much establishes that he's the Doctor's brother and the later Bernice stories often add further evidence for this.

The Welsh Series
The Doctor had a dad.

The Doctor has been a dad.

The Doctor had a brother (interestingly, the line that established that went out in an episode that shared the same script editor as the novel which told us Braxiatel was the Doctor's brother).

Everyone's dead.

Well, that was simpler than I thought.

Teatime Brutality


XellosRei

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:24 pm


I'd just assume the human/timelord offspring would be much like a donkey, they are usually sterile because of the extra set of chromosomes. Do timelords have chromosomes? Or is their genetic make up something else. See, this is why I have problems with inter planetary child birth in a scifi series. I just can't wrap my head around it...

Do timelords have a sex drive? How do they breed (other than machines)? They are humanoid but not human.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:27 pm


XellosRei
See, this is why I have problems with inter planetary child birth in a scifi series. I just can't wrap my head around it...


You're probably better off thinking of it in a mythic way then. The internal logic of Doctor Who works a lot more like myth than it does like hard SF. And myth lurrrves the saucy union of the terrestrial and celestial.

XellosRei
Do timelords have a sex drive? How do they breed (other than machines)? They are humanoid but not human.


Except when they are. twisted

Evil of the Daleks flat out says the Doctor is human (repeatedly and in such a way that the whole plot doesn't work if he isn't) and The Time Warrior says that Time Lords are human, so long as you don't simply consider 'human' as meaning 'Earth native'.

As for the sex drive thing...well, the most straightforward reading of the novels (ie, ignoring all the suggestions that the Pythia's curse was just propaganda/a biological consequence of forming the web of time/anything like that) would hold that post-Rasilion Time Lords wouldn't have had sex drives up until the end of Lungbarrow.

In terms of the Doctor's life that'd mean the first seven Doctors weren't sexual, but that Eight, Nine and Ten were. This would seem to fit perfectly with what we see on screen.

Teatime Brutality


Ceribri
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:22 pm


That makes a whole lot of sense.

*mind can't function after reading long wall of text*

It's almost as if "The Welsh Series" bit at the end is like a TL;DR to that whole post. But it's never that simple.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:43 am


back to the point again... i really doubt that they would ever have kids.mainly causer hes dead... but when they were still alive i dont think they would have either. lucy was really scared of him and he was using her for publicity correct?


IS the doctor half human?

Fantasy_of_Strange_Things


XellosRei

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:15 am


Fantasy_of_Strange_Things
back to the point again... i really doubt that they would ever have kids.mainly causer hes dead... but when they were still alive i dont think they would have either. lucy was really scared of him and he was using her for publicity correct?


IS the doctor half human?
I think human in the whouniverse is anything that looks human. Like the cat people and timelords. scifi is confusing.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:26 pm


Ceribri

It's almost as if "The Welsh Series" bit at the end is like a TL;DR to that whole post. But it's never that simple.


3nodding That's the beauty of the whole Time War concept...it's a TL biggrin R to the whole of previous Who.

If Moffat wants to pick up as large a fresh audience of ten year olds as Davies did, he's going to have to find some way of building in a TL biggrin R to the Davies era into his first season.

Teatime Brutality


Teatime Brutality

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:36 pm


Fantasy_of_Strange_Things

IS the doctor half human?


'Course he is. It says so in Doctor Who.
Just like it says in Doctor Who that he's fully Gallifreyan.
And just it says in Doctor Who that he's fully human.

He's tricksy.


Unnatural History

He was there, just ahead of her. Half clambered on a unicorn, clinging to its mane to keep from falling any further off. That mad coat flapping behind him. She could see his eyes ablaze with the fun of it all. Not just being swept along by the Hunt, but riding with it, leading it, celebrating it.

She kept her eyes locked on him. It was hard to focus - he was a dazzling blur. Where he was, even his face and body, nothing stayed fixed long enough for her to be sure of it. The possibilities and details of his past thrashing around like mad, shifting and overlapping. He was every single Doctor you could ever imagine at once.

But he was still there. Even without a fixed face or name or body, even if his past contradicted itself from moment to moment, that didn't matter. There was still something there, not just un-pinned-down but impossible to pin down. Something that even revelled in the fact that he couldn't be easily understood. That said more things were possible than a simple explaination would allow.

Something laughing.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:06 pm


Right after the Pythia's curse was lifted, since Gallifrey had been reproducing artificially for so long, the whole place must have become the Planet of Overgrown Nervous Teenagers for some time til they figured it all out. lol

Doctor_Whatsit


Ceribri
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:11 pm


Richard_Swift
Ceribri

It's almost as if "The Welsh Series" bit at the end is like a TL;DR to that whole post. But it's never that simple.


3nodding That's the beauty of the whole Time War concept...it's a TL biggrin R to the whole of previous Who.

If Moffat wants to pick up as large a fresh audience of ten year olds as Davies did, he's going to have to find some way of building in a TL biggrin R to the Davies era into his first season.


Oh good grief. I can't even imagine what he would do to wipe the slate clean (basically), unless... they wiped some of Eleven's memory and/or gave him a large exposition storyline arc. rolleyes
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:35 am


Doctor_Whatsit
Right after the Pythia's curse was lifted, since Gallifrey had been reproducing artificially for so long, the whole place must have become the Planet of Overgrown Nervous Teenagers for some time til they figured it all out. lol


Well...what seems to happen to them right after that is that they get involved in two back-to-back Time Wars!

Which probably is exactly what'd happen if you gave a bunch of confused teenagers, repressed and anxious as they are, stewardship over the continuum.

I love the way Doctor Who makes sense by accident. smile

Poor old Time Lords. They never really had to think about sex or death, the two things the human mind spends most time thinking about, then in one generation they had to figure both out at once.

Ceribri

Oh good grief. I can't even imagine what he would do to wipe the slate clean (basically), unless... they wiped some of Eleven's memory and/or gave him a large exposition storyline arc. rolleyes


I don't think you'd have to do anything quite so drastic. You don't really need to take any of the past away or cancel it out. You just have to let the viewers know that it doesn't really matter to what they're watching now.

You have to let them know that the story they're following starts in Matt Smith's first episode, not in Rose.

Davies managed to make Doctor Who more popular than it's ever been by letting a new audience know that the show was for them, not for geeky old weirdos like me.

If Moffat's going to match that, he's going to have to let a new new audience of ten-year-olds know that it's for them, not for the A-Level students who remember Bad Wolf Bay.

This doesn't have to mean any amnesia or reboots or retcons...it could just mean coming in strong with a Big New Idea and saying (via the medium of drama), "Okay, the focus is now on Big New Idea. All that Time War/Lonely God stuff...it still happened, but it's not relevant to what's going on now. Same as the death of Uncle Ben isn't relevant to every Spider-Man story. The story you're watching now is about Big New Idea, and that story's yours."

Teatime Brutality


Ceribri
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:15 pm


Makes sense. Of course my mind would immediately jump to the most drastic and blown-up thing I could think of. xp
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:47 pm


Richard_Swift
I don't think you'd have to do anything quite so drastic. You don't really need to take any of the past away or cancel it out. You just have to let the viewers know that it doesn't really matter to what they're watching now.

You have to let them know that the story they're following starts in Matt Smith's first episode, not in Rose.

Davies managed to make Doctor Who more popular than it's ever been by letting a new audience know that the show was for them, not for geeky old weirdos like me.

If Moffat's going to match that, he's going to have to let a new new audience of ten-year-olds know that it's for them, not for the A-Level students who remember Bad Wolf Bay.

This doesn't have to mean any amnesia or reboots or retcons...it could just mean coming in strong with a Big New Idea and saying (via the medium of drama), "Okay, the focus is now on Big New Idea. All that Time War/Lonely God stuff...it still happened, but it's not relevant to what's going on now. Same as the death of Uncle Ben isn't relevant to every Spider-Man story. The story you're watching now is about Big New Idea, and that story's yours."
And THAT'S why the show has been going on for so long. Sure they might explain the timewar in great detail in a book or audio story but that's for geeky weirdos like us. 3nodding

XellosRei

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