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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:58 pm
Hello All.
The name, well the real name is Stephanie.
I'd first like to add that I am not Jewish. But why did I join the guild?
Because I'm here for a short time to get some answers.
I'm in English 101 in my college and the class has been asked to write a paper about something controversial.
Some people laugh at my choice of topic and don't take me seriously. But I want to be answered seriously if you can.
What's the topic? Well it's porno. Yes pornography.
I want to know what the Jewish committee thinks about porn.
What does your religion say about such a thing?
What do you think of it?
Would you mind if I quoted some of you? If yes just put down a first name (No last names) and your age.
Thank you for your time.
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:18 pm
I'm probably not the best person to provide a religous perspective on the matter, so I'll probably just keep quiet...
*hides in bushes and watches thread intently*
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Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:58 am
I...
I typically stick with the principle of "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" when it comes to matters such as pornography.
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Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:26 pm
I see nothing wrong with it. I'm sure there's something in the law that says something about it, but I have no idea what it says.
I can't really think of a reason it would be frowned on. Okay, so, it's a little embarrassing for people to admit they watch it. Most people do, though.
I think that most people can accept that sex is a part of the human condition. A healthy sex life involves a healthy fantasy life. For a lot of people this fantasy is lived out through porn.
If it keeps 'em from going crazy, or from becoming unhealthy, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.
You can quote me, too. wink -Lew, 21
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Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:30 pm
Others in the guild may be able to address this more halakhically (it's a made up word referring to Jewish law) than I can. Nonetheless I will put the following in white text to avoid offending anyone.
Jewish law is very strict about men and the "destruction of seed". True, it is possible to watch porn without masturbating or ejaculating but it does introduce temptation and impure thoughts. This is why masturbation among women is looked down upon (though not forbidden). As far as I'm concerned, and this might be horrible, what the rabbi doesn't know won't hurt him.
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Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:41 pm
If you go to our Jewish Information sub-forum, you'll see a thread near the bottom of the page called "[GD]Good Jewish Habits: Adult Discussion", or something like that. Go into there and you should get some info.
Otherwise, Lew and "kingpinsqueezles" covered the other main points I would have said.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:01 am
There are multiple situations here that are problematic. I learned about most of them by taking a Women's Studies course in college. I highly encourage anyone to take such a course. Short answer: Judaism wholeheartedly disapproves, and disallows, pornography. Here's why. Long answers, but if you really want to know, keep on reading.
1. Viewing means acquiring. Either you go to a store in person and pay cash, in which case the cashier knows your face; or you go in person and pay by cheque or credit card, in which case the cashier knows your face, your identity, your address (it's written on your cheques), your ID number (used for proof of identity when writing a cheque), your credit card number, and/or other identifying information about you.
Not only that, but there's a paper trail left for anyone who chooses to investigate into your life for any reason (joining the military, adopting a child, working for the government, being a person of interest in a police investigation). Not only that, but there are usually multiple security cameras all over most stores, and I can only assume that they're also all over "adult" stores, so there are pictures somewhere that show you buying pornographic materials.
Suppose you don't go to a shop, but buy online? Well, then some internet stranger can attach a paper-trail of you spending your money on pornographic materials. It also happens this way if you use pay-per-view on TV. I know because I once bought a pay-per-view movie (no, not pornographic, thank you very much, it was The Bad News Bears), and thereafter I was inundated with spam mail concerning Jodie Foster.
2. The viewer's behavior. Some Jewish authorities take exception to the notion of masturbation. For men, they proscribe it because they view the sin of Onan (look up "sin of Onan") to be spilling semen without possibility of procreation. Actually, a strict reading of the text indicates that Onan's error was in lying with his dead brother's wife but engaging in coitus interruptus -- that is, taking his pleasure with her while refusing to give her a child in his brother's name by levirate marriage. But the fact remains, some authorities view male masturbation as wasting the potential for life.
Women are permitted to masturbate since nothing is wasted, but discouraged because they may become accustomed to creating sexual response in one manner, and thus become unable to be pleased by a husband during intercourse, lessening her own enjoyment of marital relations. Note the difference between "permitted but discouraged" and "forbidden."
3. The actors' behavior. The vast majority of those who "act" in pornographic film and other media are not married to one another. Therefore, most of the time, they are engaging in either premarital sex or extramarital (that is, adulterous) sex. Adultery is forbidden not just for Jews, but also for non-Jews.
Being paid to engage in any sexual activity is harlotry. Doing it makes the person a harlot (whore), which is forbidden for Jews and non-Jews alike.
Bestiality is forbidden for Jews and non-Jews alike. Some pornography features this practice, either by showing it or by alluding to it.
Some pornographic material focuses on rape or rape-fantasy. Rape is another act which is forbidden for Jews and non-Jews alike.
Some pornographic material focuses on child molestation, or molestation-fantasy. This is forbidden for Jews and non-Jews alike.
Some pornographic material focuses on cross-dressing. The strict wording of the prohibition, which applies to Jews though permitted to non-Jews, is "A man shall not wear the garment which belongs to a woman, nor shall a woman wear the garment which belongs to a man." The strictest interpretation is "Don't borrow someone else's garment, go get your own." The broadest is "If an article of clothing is associated with a particular gender, no one from the other gender should wear it at all, ever, not even for a masquerade costume or a stage play." There's a lot of leeway here, but even so, it's problematic.
The laws of modesty that apply to Jews are stricter than those that apply to non-Jews, but at a bare minimum they state that a woman should be covered from elbow to collarbone to knee, and a man should be covered from waist to knee (non-Jews) or from elbow to collarbone to knee (Jews). Additionally, a Jewish man's head should be covered, and a Jewish woman's head should be covered if she has ever "known intimacy" (engaged in heterosexual intercourse). These laws are to be observed at all times when in the presence of the opposite gender, or where one may be seen (or where one's image may be seen, such as in a painting/photograph/video) by the opposite gender. This means if your picture is being taken (still photo or moving video), you have to think not just about the other actor(s), but also about the camera operator, the lighting technician, the director, makeup and costuming people, and anyone who might possibly wind up with a copy of the video. This would automatically mean that no one should be engaged in pornography that involves nudity. Ever seen any that didn't?
The laws of negiah (touch) apply to Jews -- that is, a Jew is permitted to touch only certain members of the opposite sex: a parent, a child, an unmarried sister may touch her brother, a spouse (only when the woman is not in a state of menstrual separation), and anyone in the course of saving a life. This would automatically mean that no one should be engaged in pornography that involves any man touching any woman. That doesn't include all pornography, but according to my women's studies class in college, it does involve about 2/3 of all pornography.
And if all this weren't enough, it is forbidden for a Jew to encourage another Jew to disobey Jewish law, or to stand idly by while a Jew disobeys Jewish law. Regrettably, some pornographers and pornographic actors are Jewish, which means that no Jew should ever watch them, in particular, or their works in the field of pornography.
4. Exploitation. According to my Women's Studies course material, a substantial portion of people in the pornographic industry (mostly, the women) are or were involved in sexually abusive relationships -- often as children. Pornographers specifically look for such people because they are known to have shaky personal boundaries, and need sexual expression but also sexual approval and acceptance, and they are more likely to talk themselves into believing that they enjoy the work. What they really enjoy is being told that they are empowered by it, but that is not the case. What they're doing is saying, "Here's my body. Anybody is perfectly free to look at it. Anybody is perfectly free to use it." They're giving the entire world permission to do to them what their abusers once did, as if saying "Go ahead, take from me" is somehow giving them control and power, instead of robbing them of their control over their situation.
5. Objectification. The viewer is a participant in the objectification of the sexual act and the actors who perform it for them. Instead of focusing their sexual feeling and expression upon their loving partners, their spouse's personality and spirit (but given physical expression), one is focusing only on the outer form, as if a person's body is to be given pre-eminence. "The glove is more important than the hand; the package is more important than the gift; the body is more important than the soul and mind." That sort of thinking, that sort of objectification, is reprehensible in Judaism and in Jewish thought.
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Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:56 pm
Three things I'd debate about Divash's post.
1. There's free stuff online that won't tag ya.
2. Not all is exploitation.
3. The objectification thing strikes me wrong, but I'm having trouble articulating it.
Rest looks like a good, solid, Jewish stance on porn.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:43 am
Dis Domnu Three things I'd debate about Divash's post. 1. There's free stuff online that won't tag ya. 2. Not all is exploitation. 3. The objectification thing strikes me wrong, but I'm having trouble articulating it. Rest looks like a good, solid, Jewish stance on porn. 1. Every website you visit will record your ISP number. Someone out there knows where you go online, what you're viewing. 2. Not all of it is exploitation, but there is no way to determine which people have and haven't been exploited, nor which have done any exploiting and which haven't. 3. If sexuality is all about what you see and/or touch, then it's all about a person's body. If it's all about the person that you're with, then it's about their mind and soul, and isn't exploitative. Tell me, how well do you get to know each of the people in the photographs and videos online?
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