|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 8:40 pm
WINTENDO 64 well, now you're being rude.
Before this was just a harmless discussion,
and now it's turning into an argument.
buddhism is about compassion, love, understanding,
the pursuit of wisdom, etc.
david, no opinion is worthless.
you give off the impression of making assumptions,
"It's obvious to me that you really haven't a clue what the Buddha taught, so your opinions are really worthless."
The words 'it's obvious to me...' are said with vague
understanding on a topic when making an assumption.
you do not know how knowledgeable he is on Buddhism as
a whole, and your grounds for such reasoning are as shifty
sands.
Just because you can't cite your information from a link
you found years ago to date does not mean you are
blowing steam.
Speaking of said information, I can back his claim up
with proof. I searched a link up for benefit in the conversation,
to prove that he was not lying to try and get a point across.
If he read quotes and read teachings of Buddha's in
order to learn more about the philosophy behind the idea and
practice, he must be knowledgeable to some extent on the
subject.also, to clarify to you because there seems to still be
a ridiculous misunderstanding.I accept his beliefs to be his,
as I accept people's own beliefs as their own.
I understand it's what they think, and that is why I accept
that they believe what they do.
You seem to think I am accepting their beliefs as my own.
I am not accepting their beliefs as my own, but
accepting the fact that they came to their own conclusion
through their own reasoning.
Now if we could please get back on topic and refrain from attacking each other, we could most likely come to an
understanding.
What we were originally saying was:
On a subject that technically cannot be proved with physical science (to my knowledge), there is hardly any evidence
to suggest that either side is right or wrong, and any blind
assumption saying that someone is obviously wrong would
be made with baseless opinion.
Buddha said to not take his teachings at face value, and
to believe what you come to understand as truth.
Of course one comes to understand such teachings by testing
them through experience, proven fact, or meditation to
further understand the subject behind the matter.
In this sense, it helps me explain that, regardless,
no one is wrong here due to different interpretation.
Furthermore, to follow the eight-fold path,
one much practice right view, intention, speech, action,
livelihood, effort, mindfulness, and concentration.
To denounce others and say they are wrong when their
understanding is comprehensible is the same as not allowing
self expression and practice of religion. It is also not
coinciding with right concentration, as denouncing someone
is not a wholesome action or thought. As right concentration
is to be respectful to the belongings of others, to be kind,
and to be compassionate, I do not see these in your words.
As with your example about kissing toads...
It is a complete misconception of what I am trying to say;
if someone said Jesus or Muhhamad turned toads into princes
by kissing them, and genies existed by rubbing lamps,
I would ask for documented texts, written by an acceptable
teacher on the subject, along with documentation on the
religions and beliefs all together before I could make an
educated, thought out decision about their claim's merit.
If someone says something that ridiculous and I knew enough
on the subject to prove it incorrect, I would.
Whether or not they choose to believe me is up to them.
any misinformation can be traced to flexibility of the philosophy
itself in the hands of other countries, as many of them modified
the teachings or practices to fit their cultures.
Buddha seemed to welcome opposing statements to his
teachings, considering he said to test the theories first and
decide whether or not they were true.
So I state again to clarify once more:
No one is right or wrong here,
and I am not accusing anyone of said positions.
I am simply validating both sides of this discussion through
understanding, experience, and documented research.
As you can see from this, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.049.than.html the Buddha didn't hesitate to tell some one when he found their views in error.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 8:57 pm
WINTENDO 64 davidm843 Chieftain Twilight to be honest, i hate the idea of a heirarchy of importance like that... that bugs are considered "lesser" than humans... it's part of why i think the wheel of samsara is some bullshit. confused Because you are not Buddhist, and therefore don't understand how karma works, and in order to clarify, let me explain. All sentient life has equal value in Buddhism. The reason it takes 10 days for the karma of killing an insect to equal the karma of killing a human is not because of the value of the individual lives. It is because the taking of a human life involves a far greater amount of mental and emotional activity (also karma) than taking the life of an insect. We pretty mindlessly swat and squish bugs, but it's not possible for us (most of us anyway) to mindlessly kill a human being (truly accidentally killing some one is NOT the karma of killing). All of this mental and emotional activity surrounding the killing of a human is in itself unwholesome karma. It is the addition of all this mental karma thats makes taking human life more serious, not any idea of a life form's inherent value. In another thread you asked about the value of plant life. Traditionally, Theravadin bhikkhus and bhikkhunis are prohibited from activities that harm plants, including spitting, defecating, or urinating on them. However, lay persons are not expected to adhere to this rule. So you see, ALL life is valued.
he may not be Buddhist, he may not follow all of the teachings.
One may be nonreligious or religious to another belief, and still adopt Buddhist teachings.
Buddhism is a philosophy/arguable religious preference,
and teaches tolerance to other beliefs.
I myself, do not believe in the reincarnation wheel.
I understand energy cannot be created or destroyed,
and is therefore transferred through my surroundings.
In that sense, I am reincarnated by becoming the objects
around me in this world. My energy is still living though I may not be.
This belief may change.
I think we all agree that life is life, and therefore once taken
is equally devastating no matter who has lost it or taken it.
Though it may not psychologically be so, it may physically be.
This belief is also why most consider all life to be sacred and equal.
As with most things, teachings may be misunderstood
or changed. The true meaning of the wheel may have been
skewed when presented to him, and he has come to understand the version he was shown.
Under whatever circumstances, Chieftain believes what he does,
and I am understanding towards his views.
I figure he has come to his disbelief in the wheel by his own reasoning,
and for that I respect his choice.
Also, i think his meaning of hate was a strong disliking.
i don't think he meant it as an elevation compared to insects.
I apologize for the long defense call.
I could have probably explained it more quickly.no reason to appologize, you felt the need to say what you think of a situation you spotted. i thank you for that. same as i refuse to appologize for speaking in defense for a lady (not based on chauvanistic tendacies, it's just how i was raised) i don't wish for you to appologize for defending me. actually, yes, my hatred is just an emotion for them that i feel. i don't of myself as better than the roaches just because i hate them. i just feel like i cannot coexist with them. in the same way i don't think myself better than a baby, or a nazi. it doesn't matter how innocent or evil or great or small it is. we are all equals. my disbelief in Samsara has nothing to do with what i do or don't understand about Buddhism. i understand Samsara, and that there are stages in one's reincarnation. one's Karma determines whether they will go "forwards" or "backwards" (as the best way i can put it) on the path to Enlightenment. but see, i don't see why a perfectly "pure" person can't come back in his next life as a flower, another life as a goat, and maybe a less friendly life he would come back next time as a human. what i am saying is, while i get the idea behind it (that the stages are based on how much awareness of "right and wrong" and ability to determine what kind of Karma one generates he comes back as a more... chalenging... form. but see, i just feel like reincarnation is more random than that. it's just a personal belief, i don't pretend to have any evidence for it, but the Wheel f samsara just doens't seem to fit in the puzzle according to my current beliefs. it has potential to fit back in though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 8:59 pm
davidm843 WINTENDO 64 Buddhism is a philosophy/arguable religious preference, and teaches tolerance to other beliefs. I myself, do not believe in the reincarnation wheel. I understand energy cannot be created or destroyed, and is therefore transferred through my surroundings. In that sense, I am reincarnated by becoming the objects around me in this world. My energy is still living though I may not be. This belief may change. I think we all agree that life is life, and therefore once taken is equally devastating no matter who has lost it or taken it. Though it may not psychologically be so, it may physically be. This belief is also why most consider all life to be sacred and equal. As with most things, teachings may be misunderstood or changed. The true meaning of the wheel may have been skewed when presented to him, and he has come to understand the version he was shown. Under whatever circumstances, Chieftain believes what he does, and I am understanding towards his views. I figure he has come to his disbelief in the wheel by his own reasoning, and for that I respect his choice. People are free to believe whatever they wish. They doesn't make their beliefs correct. For example, for centuries people believed the Earth was flat. Was that correct? Did their believing it make correct? This is a Buddhist forum. Buddhism doesn't require people to believe anything. But there are definite, universal teachings that the Buddha gave. Now many people find those teachings inconvenient, and want to change them, but the bottom line is, something is in accord with what the Buddha taught, or it is not. The choice belongs to each individual, am I going to follow the teachings or not? Of course, if one chooses not to follow them, or change them to meet their own likes, then they'll never find out if they actually work, will they? ya know, this works both ways. you should try to put some of your own arguments into practice. smile self-reflection can e a very empowering and educating practice. ^_^
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:11 pm
*sighs.* iii-_- i wonder if i may have to simply ignore this kid to get anything out of this guild...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 10:04 pm
davidm843 WINTENDO 64 well, now you're being rude.
Before this was just a harmless discussion,
and now it's turning into an argument.
buddhism is about compassion, love, understanding,
the pursuit of wisdom, etc.
david, no opinion is worthless.
you give off the impression of making assumptions,
"It's obvious to me that you really haven't a clue what the Buddha taught, so your opinions are really worthless."
The words 'it's obvious to me...' are said with vague
understanding on a topic when making an assumption.
you do not know how knowledgeable he is on Buddhism as
a whole, and your grounds for such reasoning are as shifty
sands.
Just because you can't cite your information from a link
you found years ago to date does not mean you are
blowing steam.
Speaking of said information, I can back his claim up
with proof. I searched a link up for benefit in the conversation,
to prove that he was not lying to try and get a point across.
If he read quotes and read teachings of Buddha's in
order to learn more about the philosophy behind the idea and
practice, he must be knowledgeable to some extent on the
subject.also, to clarify to you because there seems to still be
a ridiculous misunderstanding.I accept his beliefs to be his,
as I accept people's own beliefs as their own.
I understand it's what they think, and that is why I accept
that they believe what they do.
You seem to think I am accepting their beliefs as my own.
I am not accepting their beliefs as my own, but
accepting the fact that they came to their own conclusion
through their own reasoning.
Now if we could please get back on topic and refrain from attacking each other, we could most likely come to an
understanding.
What we were originally saying was:
On a subject that technically cannot be proved with physical science (to my knowledge), there is hardly any evidence
to suggest that either side is right or wrong, and any blind
assumption saying that someone is obviously wrong would
be made with baseless opinion.
Buddha said to not take his teachings at face value, and
to believe what you come to understand as truth.
Of course one comes to understand such teachings by testing
them through experience, proven fact, or meditation to
further understand the subject behind the matter.
In this sense, it helps me explain that, regardless,
no one is wrong here due to different interpretation.
Furthermore, to follow the eight-fold path,
one much practice right view, intention, speech, action,
livelihood, effort, mindfulness, and concentration.
To denounce others and say they are wrong when their
understanding is comprehensible is the same as not allowing
self expression and practice of religion. It is also not
coinciding with right concentration, as denouncing someone
is not a wholesome action or thought. As right concentration
is to be respectful to the belongings of others, to be kind,
and to be compassionate, I do not see these in your words.
As with your example about kissing toads...
It is a complete misconception of what I am trying to say;
if someone said Jesus or Muhhamad turned toads into princes
by kissing them, and genies existed by rubbing lamps,
I would ask for documented texts, written by an acceptable
teacher on the subject, along with documentation on the
religions and beliefs all together before I could make an
educated, thought out decision about their claim's merit.
If someone says something that ridiculous and I knew enough
on the subject to prove it incorrect, I would.
Whether or not they choose to believe me is up to them.
any misinformation can be traced to flexibility of the philosophy
itself in the hands of other countries, as many of them modified
the teachings or practices to fit their cultures.
Buddha seemed to welcome opposing statements to his
teachings, considering he said to test the theories first and
decide whether or not they were true.
So I state again to clarify once more:
No one is right or wrong here,
and I am not accusing anyone of said positions.
I am simply validating both sides of this discussion through
understanding, experience, and documented research.
As you can see from this, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.049.than.html the Buddha didn't hesitate to tell some one when he found their views in error.
an educated decision you need some type of proof or
documented information to reason with and study to come
to a complete understanding of the subject, and therefore
come to a decision based on what you believe to be true.
you seem to have ignored the fact that there is no error here--
nor do i imply that there is any error on both sides--
and are therefore trying to continue through a door that has
been closed through use of documented evidence.
To continue on a null point is unnecessary,
and exudes the air of juvenile conduct.
I was hoping we could act more adult here.
Hopefully you will learn or have learned something from our
conversation as I have learned something from it.
I consider our discussion finished.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 10:09 pm
Chieftain Twilight *sighs.* iii-_- i wonder if i may have to simply ignore this kid to get anything out of this guild...
to not follow one of the teachings of Buddha through reasoning through experiences, facts, interpretation and the like.
His argument is null and full of easy pickings.
Either way, use this experience to reflect on yourself
and you'll get something out of it.
I believe this guild is all about exploring yourself
and the practices as well, since they tie together in the end.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 10:27 pm
WINTENDO 64 Your point further proves the fact that to make an educated decision you need some type of proof or documented information to reason with and study to come to a complete understanding of the subject, and therefore
come to a decision based on what you believe to be true.
you seem to have ignored the fact that there is no error here--
nor do i imply that there is any error on both sides--
and are therefore trying to continue through a door that has
been closed through use of documented evidence.
To continue on a null point is unnecessary,
and exudes the air of juvenile conduct.
I was hoping we could act more adult here.
Hopefully you will learn or have learned something from our
conversation as I have learned something from it.
I consider our discussion finished. Actually, what it proves is I know what I'm talking about AND can support my views with something besides my own opinion. Seems to be something many others are incapable of doing. Or perhaps they are just too enamored with their own views to see the validity of established and recognized truths. And you're right. This conversation is over. I've already put Twilight on ignore, and I now am doing the same to you. It is pointless to go on with anyone who refuses to acknowledge proper teachings and chooses to cling to their delusion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 11:36 pm
WINTENDO 64 Chieftain Twilight *sighs.* iii-_- i wonder if i may have to simply ignore this kid to get anything out of this guild...
to not follow one of the teachings of Buddha through reasoning through experiences, facts, interpretation and the like.
His argument is null and full of easy pickings.
Either way, use this experience to reflect on yourself
and you'll get something out of it.
I believe this guild is all about exploring yourself
and the practices as well, since they tie together in the end.Live and let live. Gather any good knowledge, experience, and wisdom that you can from what may be otherwise called negative encounters, benefit from them and grow. This is how I choose to handle such situations and, thus far, it has worked for me. We all tried to explain to him our viewpoints, providing facts as well as beliefs. Now, although it may seem our attempts have been futile, we can still hope that he will meditate on it himself and benefit in whatever ways he can in what he might consider a negative encounter as well. Also keep in mind that if you gain something positive from a negative situation, it may not be as negative as it appeared to be. It may generate negativity, but by producing positive results it has, of course, also generated positivity. To nearly everything there is both a good and a bad side. Look for the good, and just let go of the bad.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lord Alucard Ere Casanova
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 6:47 am
Master Shadow Kilo WINTENDO 64 Chieftain Twilight *sighs.* iii-_- i wonder if i may have to simply ignore this kid to get anything out of this guild...
to not follow one of the teachings of Buddha through reasoning through experiences, facts, interpretation and the like.
His argument is null and full of easy pickings.
Either way, use this experience to reflect on yourself
and you'll get something out of it.
I believe this guild is all about exploring yourself
and the practices as well, since they tie together in the end.Live and let live. Gather any good knowledge, experience, and wisdom that you can from what may be otherwise called negative encounters, benefit from them and grow. This is how I choose to handle such situations and, thus far, it has worked for me. We all tried to explain to him our viewpoints, providing facts as well as beliefs. Now, although it may seem our attempts have been futile, we can still hope that he will meditate on it himself and benefit in whatever ways he can in what he might consider a negative encounter as well. Also keep in mind that if you gain something positive from a negative situation, it may not be as negative as it appeared to be. It may generate negativity, but by producing positive results it has, of course, also generated positivity. To nearly everything there is both a good and a bad side. Look for the good, and just let go of the bad. meh... all there is to do about it now is take it as a new experience. i can't say i'm happy, but that isn't realy the point. it looks like further conflict won't be present, so yeh. i guess i just still have difficulty ignoring how people think of me. sweatdrop
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 12:15 pm
Chieftain Twilight meh... all there is to do about it now is take it as a new experience. i can't say i'm happy, but that isn't realy the point. it looks like further conflict won't be present, so yeh. i guess i just still have difficulty ignoring how people think of me. sweatdrop That's a common thing. Just keep in mind that the thoughts of others does not dictate who you are and eventually I think it will change. Regardless of what other people think or say, you are you and that is something to be proud of.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lord Alucard Ere Casanova
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 1:58 pm
Master Shadow Kilo Chieftain Twilight meh... all there is to do about it now is take it as a new experience. i can't say i'm happy, but that isn't realy the point. it looks like further conflict won't be present, so yeh. i guess i just still have difficulty ignoring how people think of me. sweatdrop That's a common thing. Just keep in mind that the thoughts of others does not dictate who you are and eventually I think it will change. Regardless of what other people think or say, you are you and that is something to be proud of. *nods.* heh. story of my life. xd
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 4:21 pm
It seems we all got something from this.
That's all that matters.
c:
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 11:02 pm
x- a n n i v i -x What should I do about things like ticks that I find on my dog? I can't really just leave them on the floor... they'll attach themselves to my dog or even a person. 0.o Would it be alright if I killed them? And do you think that perhaps ticks and others parasites are hungry ghosts in a way? I've been wondering about this as well. What about bugs like mosquitoes, which are not only a nuisance but can also spread diseases? confused It's such a touchy subject. I have a garden, and there are certain pests destroying my plants. Would it be against the Buddha's teaching to try to kill the pests, or would it be more acceptable to surrender my garden to them? Seems like there are no easy answers...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 11:32 pm
If I may, I'd like to add my opinion on the flea/tick/pests issue.
I think that, if you consider how much damage those things can cause, I believe that killing them would be justified if you kill it in a quick, painless way without it suffering.
Think about it. One mosquito can give at least one person malaria, a terrible and deadly disease. This causes much, much suffering, a great deal more than a quick death.
Or, if a person had a deadly allergies to bees, killing a threatening one in lieu of the person being stung and suffocating to death would be justifiable.
EDIT: @garden pest problem: I would try a natural remedy first, of course. Maybe try to attract a certain kind of bird that'll eat them. But, then again, I don't think the Buddha saw plants as sentient beings? I may be wrong on this, feel free to correct me if this is the case.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
