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lymelady
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:56 am


This is something I just read that interested me a lot. There are some things that a lot of people won't agree with in the article itself (it talks about a contraceptive culture where contraception creates a mentality that the baby is the enemy, which I know a lot of people in here support contraception fully since more contraception=less abortions. I have to admit though that even though I'm pretty pro-contraception it made me think a lot), but there was something she started out the article with that for some reason spoke to me. It's pretty long so I cut it in places, but you can read the full thing here

Quote:
Back in my pro-choice days, I read that in certain ancient societies it was common for parents to abandon unwanted newborns, leaving them to die of exposure. I found these stories to be as perplexing as they were horrifying. How could this happen? I could never understand how entire cultures could buy into something so obviously terrible, how something that modern society understands to be an unthinkable evil could be widely accepted among large groups of people.

Because of my deep distress at hearing of such crimes against humanity, I found it irritating when pro-lifers would refer to abortion as “killing babies.” Obviously, nobody was in favor of killing babies, and to imply that those of us who were pro-choice would advocate as much was an insult to the babies throughout history who actually were killed by their “insane” societies. We were not in favor of killing anything. We simply felt that a woman had a right to stop the growth process of a fetus if she faced a crisis pregnancy. It was unfortunate, but that was the sacrifice that had to be made to prevent women from becoming victims of unwanted pregnancies.

At that time I was an atheist and had little exposure to religious social circles. As I began to search for God and open my mind to Christianity, however, I could not help but be exposed to pro-life thought more often, and I was put on the defensive about my views. One night I was discussing the topic with my husband, who was re-examining his own pro-choice stance. He made a passing remark that startled me into reconsidering this issue: “It just occurred to me that being pro-life is being pro-other-people’s-life,” he quipped. “Everyone is pro-their-own-life.”

His remark made me realize that my pro-choice viewpoints had put me in the position of deciding whose lives were worth living, and even who was human. Along with doctors, the government and other abortion advocates, I decided where to draw this crucial line. When I would come across Catholic Web sites or books that asserted “Life begins at conception,” I would scoff, as was my habit, yet I found myself increasingly uncomfortable with my defense. I realized that my criteria for determining when human life begins were distressingly vague. I was putting the burden of proof on the fetuses to demonstrate to me that they were human, and I was a tough judge. I found myself looking the other way when I heard about things like the 3-D ultrasounds that showed fetuses touching their faces, smiling and opening their eyes at ages at which I still considered abortion acceptable. As modern technology revealed more and more evidence that fetuses were humans too, I would simply move the bar for what I considered human.

...

My pro-choice views (and I imagine those of many others) were motivated by loving concern: I just did not want women to have to suffer, to have to devalue themselves by dealing with unwanted pregnancies. Since it was an inherent part of my worldview that everyone except people with “hang-ups” eventually has sex, and that sex is, under normal circumstances, only about the relationship between the two people involved, I was lured into one of the oldest, biggest, most tempting lies in human history: the enemy is not human. Babies had become the enemy because of their tendency to pop up and ruin everything; and just as societies are tempted to dehumanize their fellow human beings on the other side of the line in wartime, so had I, and we as a society, dehumanized what we saw as the enemy of sex.

...

All of these thoughts had been percolating in my brain for a while, and I found myself increasingly in agreement with pro-life positions. Then one night I became officially, unapologetically pro-life. I was reading yet another account of the Greek societies in which newborn babies were abandoned to die, wondering how normal people could do something like that, and I felt a chill rush through me as I thought: I know how they did it.

I realized in that moment that perfectly good, well-meaning people—people like me—can support gravely evil things because of the power of lies. From my own experience, I knew how the Greeks, the Romans and people in every other society could put themselves into a mental state where they could leave a newborn child to die. The very real pressures of life—“we can’t afford another baby,” “we can’t have any more girls,” “he wouldn’t have had a good life”—left them susceptible to the temptation to dehumanize other human beings. Though the circumstances were different, the same process had happened with me, with the pro-choice movement and with anyone else who has ever been tempted to dehumanize inconvenient people.

I suspect that as those Greek parents handed over their infants for someone to take away, they remarked on how very unlike their other children these little creatures were: they couldn’t talk, the couldn’t sit up, and surely those little yawns and smiles were just involuntary reactions. I bet they referred to these babies with different words than they used to refer to the children they kept. Maybe they called them something like “fetuses.”
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:53 pm


That was really cool.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:38 pm


Wow. That's really interesting.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:02 pm


BAM.

All that needs to be said. Another logical mind destruction against pro-choice logic.

divineseraph


Theallpowerfull

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:29 pm


"and we as a society, dehumanized what we saw as the enemy of sex. "

This person's perspective is a journey of rational thought. I enjoy reading where she comes from because I find it so easy to relate.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:05 am


Remarking on her last paragraph, she is correct, historically people didn't kill babies any more than people kill babies today. Not in their minds at least. Defective babies were not human, humanity was once again a feature defined by the public. In some cultures all that was needed was for the husband to believe the child wasn't his, and it could be a death sentence.

Also abortion was legal in these cultures. Even in medieval culture the penalty for preforming oral sex was greater than the penalty for abortion.

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La Veuve Zin

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:35 am


Beware the Jabberwock
In some cultures all that was needed was for the husband to believe the child wasn't his, and it could be a death sentence.


Even today, in some cultures it could be a death sentence for both the child and the mother.

Ordinarily I don't support the U.S. (or the U.N.) intervening in otherwise stable societies, but someone needs to put a stop to that s**t. Like, yesterday.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:46 am


I went ahead and read the whole article.

Quote:
Growing up in secular middle-class America, I understood sex as something disconnected from the idea of creating life. During my entire childhood I did not know anyone who had a baby sibling; and to the extent that neighborhood parents ever talked about pregnancy, it was to say they were glad they were “done.”


This really hit home for me. I grew up with a mom that was in awe of her pregnancies. I'm lucky to be the oldest because I was there to observe four of them (though I only remember 3 of them vividly). And she used the opportunity to tell me about babies and how they grow inside the mommy until they are big enough to come out. I knew what "contractions" were before I knew what "sex" was. She'd get all excited if the baby started kicking and she'd let me feel the kicks through her belly. All that just made pregnancy a very REAL experience for me at a young age. There was never a doubt in my mind that this was a life inside her.


On a side and very off-topic note but it's touched on in the article as the author was making her transition...learning about the Catholic view of sex, especially anything related to John Paul II's "Theology of the Body", is really thought provoking. I don't expect anyone to agree with it. I only recommend it because the Catholic view of sex is very widely misunderstood, even by a lot of Catholics...for a while that included me and the author of this article. The Church has only recently started to get a handle on really teaching about its approach to sex...for too long it's just been the little old lady saying "Don't do it until you're married. It's a SIN." and that was that. I was exposed to some of it while I was in college hanging out with the Gaian Catholic guild and it was...a positive shock. But my agnostic fiance didn't get any of it until we studied it in a marriage prep class. The whole "sex is a gift from God" thing is one thing we may never see eye-to-eye on but a lot of the message did seem to resonate with him in a way I've never seen anything "Catholic" get to him before. He noted, "If only Mrs. T spoke about THIS in [abstinence only] health class. She'd probably would have gotten through to a lot more people."

Cyanna


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:05 am


Cyanna
the Catholic view of sex is very widely misunderstood, even by a lot of Catholics...for a while that included me and the author of this article. The Church has only recently started to get a handle on really teaching about its approach to sex...for too long it's just been the little old lady saying "Don't do it until you're married. It's a SIN." and that was that.


3nodding I was never taught, not by my Catholic parents or in Catholic school, that sex was bad, or even just for procreation. I was taught that it's part of a sacred bond between a married couple, and a perfectly acceptable way of expressing your love, even if you're not trying to create a child. If the dogma was that sex was only for procreation, they wouldn't approve of the rhythm method.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:55 pm


3nodding Although, rhythm method =/= Natural Family Planning; NFP is a little more complicated, and when done right has about equal success rates to artificial forms of birth control.

...But I still support artificial birth control. xd Just, my mom was always sensitive about it being called the rhythm method, since it's about 1/20th as effective. So now it's something that bothers me too. sweatdrop

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The Pro-life Guild

 
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