|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:15 am
The Iron Magus Eruravenne So it's ok to be anti-Christian? What if these books were anti-Muslim? Or anti-Wiccan? Or anti-Black? Or anti-gay? Why is it ok for people to hate one religous group (Christians) but if anything is said that could be slightly concieved as negative about any other group (religious or otherwise), it's the worst thing ever? Yes, it is okay to be anti-Christian. As much as it is to be pro-christian. As long as we're talking about the religion itself, and not the people who follow it. I'd be perfectly fine if it were anti-muslim (religion), though we have enough of those already, I'm sure. And anti-black? Anti-gay? You're mixing issues here. Do you choose to be black? No. Do you choose to be gay? I don't think so. So no, being anti-any of that is retarded. But religion is a worldview and a choice, and in our society, Christianity is the dominant one. It's the world's largest religion, and as such, many of it's views are accepted with nary a thought. If a book can be published that shows that there are other views out there besides the dominant one, and maybe, just maybe, some of the dominant views are not correct, then I repeat: Bravo. Also, consequences have NOTHING to do with right or wrong. Just thought I'd bring that up.
You mean anti-Islam, not anti-Muslim.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:35 am
The Iron Magus Eruravenne So it's ok to be anti-Christian? What if these books were anti-Muslim? Or anti-Wiccan? Or anti-Black? Or anti-gay? Why is it ok for people to hate one religous group (Christians) but if anything is said that could be slightly concieved as negative about any other group (religious or otherwise), it's the worst thing ever? Yes, it is okay to be anti-Christian. As much as it is to be pro-christian. As long as we're talking about the religion itself, and not the people who follow it. I'd be perfectly fine if it were anti-muslim (religion), though we have enough of those already, I'm sure. And anti-black? Anti-gay? You're mixing issues here. Do you choose to be black? No. Do you choose to be gay? I don't think so. So no, being anti-any of that is retarded. But religion is a worldview and a choice, and in our society, Christianity is the dominant one. It's the world's largest religion, and as such, many of it's views are accepted with nary a thought. If a book can be published that shows that there are other views out there besides the dominant one, and maybe, just maybe, some of the dominant views are not correct, then I repeat: Bravo. Also, consequences have NOTHING to do with right or wrong. Just thought I'd bring that up. Say what you will, but if those books were specifically against any other religion, they would not only have not been nearly popular enough to make a movie out of, but even if they were, no movie would be made. And when I say that, I mean actually naming a religious group as the bad guys and having the heroes of the story kill that religion's god (or goddess or gods or whatever). With the exception of ancient, no-longer-followed religions. As for my other examples, I was making a point. Christians are a group of people. Say... a book was anti-environmentalist. Or anti-vegetarian. Or anti-liberal in general. The author of said book would be scoffed at by just about everyone in the world and the book would probably have groups of hippies protesting it in front of bookstores nation-wide. But if it was anti-conservative? It would be welcomed with open arms. My point here isn't even really about what your personal view on this is, but the world's view on it. The world thinks it is ok to hate one group of people and not ok to hate the rest of them. It's simply hypocritical and wrong. Kind of like how it's ok to be sexist against men, or racist against white people. Is it just because of the whole "conservative, white, Christian men are ruining the world mentality? Not all white men are conservative Christians and not all conservative Christians are white men. For that matter, not all conservatives are Christian and vice versa. So why are people allowed to be intolerant of those things, but any other intolerance is met with intense fury? I honestly don't know why I'm even bothering to post this at all... I already know it isn't going to do a single thing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:50 am
+--I read the series and I never understood the whole anti-Christian aspect to it. If Pullman once said it was anti-Christian, fair enough. However, that's just like J.K. Rowling saying Dumbledore is gay. I sure as Hell didn't see it while reading it, so I don't get how some children will be able to see it and be influenced by it in the book. If you are big and bold enough to see it, then you are most likely big and bold enough not to allow some fictional book change how you view the world due to vague hints. With that said, the Bible can change people's opinions because it directly says it's views. Sorry for bringing that into this, but it was the only obvious example I could think of.--+
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:15 am
Changing subject slightly...
Is there actually going to be a sponsor quest for this? If so, I want my jackal!
^___^
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:27 pm
Eruravenne Say what you will, but if those books were specifically against any other religion, they would not only have not been nearly popular enough to make a movie out of, but even if they were, no movie would be made. And when I say that, I mean actually naming a religious group as the bad guys and having the heroes of the story kill that religion's god (or goddess or gods or whatever). With the exception of ancient, no-longer-followed religions. Mmm, perhaps, if it had been a different religion, it wouldn't have been as popular. But that is farily natural. Christianity, being the largest religion, is naturally the one we are most familiar with. So naturally, a book targeting it will strike a chord with more people. However, what with all the stink raised about middle-eastern religions, a book that has anti-Islamic bent would probably sell pretty well, as well. Quote: As for my other examples, I was making a point. Christians are a group of people. Say... a book was anti-environmentalist. Or anti-vegetarian. Or anti-liberal in general. The author of said book would be scoffed at by just about everyone in the world and the book would probably have groups of hippies protesting it in front of bookstores nation-wide. But if it was anti-conservative? It would be welcomed with open arms. See, this is where we disagree. I do not think the book is anti-any group of people. If anything, it is against a set of ideas--ie, a religion. There is a big difference between saying "I don't like Christianity," and "I don't like Christians." Oh, and are you kidding? Anti-environmentalist and anti-liberal books are published all the time. They get on the best seller lists. Sure, I shake my head and think how stupid people are to read/buy them, but I don't think they should be banned. People dissatisfied with anti-conservative books are free to shake their heads at me, if they wish. And protest, too. Protest is just another form of free speech, after all. Quote: My point here isn't even really about what your personal view on this is, but the world's view on it. The world thinks it is ok to hate one group of people and not ok to hate the rest of them. Woah, woah, WOAH. Where are you seeing hate for ANYONE? Who brought up hate? This book is not about "RAARGH CHRISTIANS ARE THE SCUM OF THE EARTH! THEY MUST BE CLEANSED, FOR THEY ARE LESS THAN HUMAN!" And I'm not, either. And neither are most sane people. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they hate you. Quote: It's simply hypocritical and wrong. Kind of like how it's ok to be sexist against men, or racist against white people. Is it just because of the whole "conservative, white, Christian men are ruining the world mentality? Not all white men are conservative Christians and not all conservative Christians are white men. For that matter, not all conservatives are Christian and vice versa. So why are people allowed to be intolerant of those things, but any other intolerance is met with intense fury? I honestly don't know why I'm even bothering to post this at all... I already know it isn't going to do a single thing. People will always rail against the majority and the status quo. Conservative, white, christian men ARE running the world. One of them is running the USA right now, and there has NEVER been a leader of the country that WASN'T a white Christian male. But as I said before: You need to seperate opinions from people. I have some friends I strongly disagree with on religions issues. Technically speaking, their religion tells them to believe that I am going to hell when I die. But do I hate them? No. I can seperate the person from their beliefs. @ BlueRaven990Ah, yes. Anti-Islam is the word I was groping for. Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:50 am
IT ISN'T ANTI CHRISTIAN FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY IN THE WORLD! OH MY GOODNESS! IT'S A BOOK! IT'S NOT DENOUNCING CHRISTIANITY! IT'S FRICKIN' FICTION, DARNIT! THERE IS NO SECRET MESSAGE THAT SHOUTS "KILL ALL CHRISTIANS" IN THESE BOOKS. JUST LIKE HARRY POTTER! WHAT DOES HARRY POTTER HAVE TO DO WITH CHRISTIANITY?! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!! IT'S LIKE SAYING "WHERE THE WILD THINGS ARE" IS ANTI CHRISTIAN! WHERE DOES THAT BOOK MENTION CHRISTIANITY? IT DOESN'T! iT'S FOR ENTERTAINMENT, DARNIT! i WISH PEOPLE WOULD STOP BEING JERKS! I DOUBT THE CHURCHES SAYING THESE BOOKS ARE EVIL HAVE ANYONE WHO ACTUALLY READ THE BOOKS! THE WORLD IS GOING CRAZY!
This is a huge pet peeve of mine. I don't understand the logic that these works of brilliant FICTION are evil... or anti-anything!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:54 am
And... I really don't see how you can be racist against the white man. He doesn't care. Calling the white man "honkey" doesn't in the least bother him.
and I hear more sexist slurs against women than men.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:59 am
Oh... more! Tim, doll-face. Have your friends told you you're going to hell?
That's not cool.
That's not cool at all.
I got told by a Christian I was going to hell for being Episcopal. Which is a Christian sect. So... I'm not entirely sure people have really been educated in the Christian religion as they should be. Also, who are they to judge you, TIM, darling? Should someone tell you you are going to hell, say "Judge not lest ye be judged" and they'll be so amazed you pulled out a bible sentence on them, their very heads will explode from the sheer awesomeness. Christians are supposed to love their neighbors no matter who they are or what they believe. Hypocrites, all.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:59 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:30 pm
Yeata Zi Oh... more! Tim, doll-face. Have your friends told you you're going to hell? That's not cool. That's not cool at all. I got told by a Christian I was going to hell for being Episcopal. Which is a Christian sect. So... I'm not entirely sure people have really been educated in the Christian religion as they should be. Also, who are they to judge you, TIM, darling? Should someone tell you you are going to hell, say "Judge not lest ye be judged" and they'll be so amazed you pulled out a bible sentence on them, their very heads will explode from the sheer awesomeness. Christians are supposed to love their neighbors no matter who they are or what they believe. Hypocrites, all.
Bleh that old 'LOL, YOUR GONNA BURN IN HELL' thing.
What kind of stupid idea is that? By not conforming to somebodies views and bowing down to some 'god', you'll end up getting punished after you die.
Which is kinda hypocritical.
Additionally on the issue of religious friends, I know a guy who is Christianity-obsessed to such as degree that instead of something along the lines of 'Hey, I'm blah blah or whatever' on his MySpace it saids 'Hi I'm a Christian, if you're not you're going to burn in hell.'
What a lovely, fluffy image that sends out to people... xd
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:47 pm
Alright, apparently I've been forgetting to specify... I'm barely talking about these books at all. I haven't read them and I'm not able to pass any kind of judgement on them because of that. Also, there is a big difference between hating and disagreeing. I don't care if people disagree with something. Disagree all you want. But from what I have personally heard about this guy, he hates. Not just disagrees. But people are just going to say "Oh, he's not anti-anything" because it is Christianity. Also to make sure I'm not misunderstood, even if he isn't as hateful as he's portrayed, it still doesn't affect my point.
If an author or anyone else in any kind of entertainment or political position where they had some fame and ability to alter people's opinions (yes, famous people do have that power over the weak minded, unfortunately) and they made any statement that could be possibly construed as anti-anything else, even if they never meant anything like that, they would be forced to make a public apology or something. An example would be some girl on American Idol who sang a Christian song on a choose-your-own-song night and before singing it said something about how no matter what lifestyle you lead, God can make you a better person. She was slammed for being homophobic and voted off the show (either honestly or staged... who knows).
And about those anti-liberal books, the authors get scoffed at by the rest of the world. Just like I said. Even if there are enough silent conservatives to get the books on the bestseller list, they're silent, which is also bad... You can probably guess my opinion on those subjects, so I'm not gonna change the subject even more...
Oh yes, and if you think a book that was against middle eastern religions would do well (outside the silent conservative world), you're fooling yourself. The author would be called terrible names on prime-time news and talk shows and he certainly wouldn't have a movie made of his book. And no, most sane people wouldn't say that out loud, but I would be willing to bet a lot of them would think something similar after having a group of crazy evangelists tell them they are going to hell for some stupid reason. And in doind so would be commiting the same terribe act they probably claim to be against, which is grouping all people who have something in common into a crazy evangelist stereotype.
Also, just because something is a majorty doesn't make it ok for it to be constantly bashed. If you think there is no sexism against men, you need to watch a sitcom. Any one will do. Men are ALWAYS portrayed as stupid, selfish, insensitive pigs while the women are smart and beautiful victims of their idiot husbands' stupid behaviour. That's why I don't watch sitcoms. Not only is it incorrect, it teaches young boys who watch those shows that that is how men are supposed to act. Even grown men who watch them are prone to strange behavior changed. I've seen it happen with my own eyes to my own father and brothers.
And finally, to Zi, just because a lot of white people aren't bothered by racism against them, doesn't mean all of them aren't. It bothers me, mostly because it's so hypocritical. I have a lot of issues with racism in general that I don't want to get into right now. But I will say that white people are so brainwashed into thinking that everything bad in the world is their fault (maybe not their personal fault, but all the other white people's fault) that they actually have become racist against themselves. It seems like that would be impossible, but I believe it's true.
Oh, PS, I do agree with you fully on the Harry Potter issue and the way Christians are supposed to behave. We are the only supposed to plant the seeds, it isn't up to us what becomes of them and it's not our job to decide who is getting into heaven and who isn't. Only God can see the true hearts of men. 3nodding
Last thing, I promise... Remember that spiral I mentioned earlier...? I sense its eminent apporach... ninja
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:56 pm
Hey guys, I'm going to close this thread.
It has gone off topic and that's not what we want.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:32 pm
Magnesium Dioxide Hey guys, I'm going to close this thread.
It has gone off topic and that's not what we want. Good job MD. Also, I better not see some of this spilling into other threads. Now, don't take that as an accusation that I expect it to happen, but since you've vented your spleen on some of these issues, no reason to bring it up later.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:29 pm
Yes, closing the thread was probably best.
But allow me to abuse my powers very briefly on the subject of my friends:
No, none of them have brought up on their own the "fact" that I am going to hell. They are better people than that. I'M the one that usually brings it up, after we've gotten into a heated discussion about religion. I bring it up as one of the things I dislike about their religious views, the fact that I, Ghandi, and other non-Christian are destined to spend eternity in hellfire, right alongside of Hitler, just because we don't ascribe to a certain religion.
My friends have never denied this, since doing so would go against their faith, but they've never been the ones to bring it up. That's all MY fault. sweatdrop
EDIT BY ZI: Well, that's cool then.
I don't believe any religion is necessarily wrong. And I don't think because you aren't christian, you're going to hell. I mean... think of all the people out in the congo. They are secluded, and never have a chance of getting word of christianity... I don't believe a benevolent God would doom them to hell for just being born in seclusion. You know? That's the argument I usually use there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:59 pm
I abused my powers twice.... >.>
THE MADNESS!
Right... closing the thread... seriously now.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
