Welcome to Gaia! ::

I think you've got to spend a bit more time thinking about the narrow range of interpretations that you set yourself up for, Rachel. You can't really speak in broad "cultural" or "evolutionary" terms in responce or in the context of specific life experience. Forest, trees. You either just come off as being rude via generalizations or insensitive by using someone else's statement as a platform for a vaguely related grievance, no matter what the context is, and quite frankly invoking the Madonna/Whore complex in front of me, especially in the context of my relationship with Katrina is particularily untrue and hurtful.

Streamjumper's comments are particularily pointed and deserve a more thorough investigation than drawing the conclusion that we dislike being associated with the lowest common denominator because we've worked hard and long to buck the trend.

The specific grievance here is the unwarranted invoking of the drop of piss, ocean of urine principle. Myself, Stream, Zero, Kin, and Ed (who are only those whom I feel comfortable speaking in this context for) represent a new post feminist brand of masculinity that is barely beginning to assert itself in any kind of major way, mostly because we face a wall of idiocy and ignorance in attempting to connect with other men on these issues.

Thus, one does not give up on planting saplings after a forest fire because saplings are small. Seeds must take root and grow. This takes time and effort. Despite the relative lack of media representation of our views and philosophies (which is to be expected as radical views never occupy a place of prominence in the mainstream), I'm certain I could speak for Katrina, Luna, Rae, and Aki in that they would much prefer we treat them the way we do rather than the kind of behavior expected from men our ages as expressed by yourself and Shouj.

Yes. We are fighting an uphill battle. Yes, we are the minority. But so ******** what? It will take time and effort, but we will exert our influence to effect whatever change we can, which I imagine will mostly take the form of passing our values along to our children (or in Stream's case Bobo and Stinky). My parents' relationship taught me a great deal and formed the bedrock for how I act.

We've suffered yes, but we aren't craving recognition for being martyrs, this is just a consequence, a consequence of allowing one's self to be vulnerable. However we've all understood for the most part who is worth being vulnerable to rather than erecting a brick wall and being paragons of manly emotional ******** turning on a TV. Start expecting, wanting, and seeking better. Better for you, better for your friends, better for your ******** generation. Stop wallowing in cynicism and bad experiences. Start learning from them and building a better tomorrow. That's natural selection, that's evolution, that's progress.

And if I may clarify Shouj; the original post came from a friend of mine teasing me that I was going to get laid for Christmas, which we use just as a generic term for having sex. The statement is ironic because it seems like my relationship with Katrina is old fashioned in that we got to know each other and got close and affectionate before sleeping together.

Erm, to clarify, I never mentioned anything about my expectations involving the behavior of men so I'm unclear on how I'm dragged into this. And of course no woman wants to be treated like an object, but it's happening. You would be blind to say it isn't. That doesn't mean I or anyone else is saying "that's ok and while you're at it, treat me like a whore too!"

We all have our ideas of a perfect world, but they're not synonymous with everyone else's. No need for coming across as being somewhat condescending though when all that's necessary is a civil discussion. Especially when you're encountering lots of people in your life who will disagree with you and your views. I'm certain my views are not the same as anyone else in here, but I feel as if it's rude to put them down for it or condescend to them. If you disagree, that's fine and I'm not about to blow up about it, but I'm just saying how I feel just like you and everyone else in here.

it's s'ok i still <3 you.

You email me now, after over two months of nothing. No phone call, or anything. I'm not mad; I could have contacted you if I wanted to talk. But the fact that you make up excuses, saying how you sick and busy for over two months when you still use our mutual friend during that time pisses me off. Oh, and by the way she's in the hospital and halfway across the world yet she still manages to call me.
Stop using your cancer scare as a way to get out of everything. You don't have cancer! I was with you in the hospital for hours that night, and what have you done for me besides use me and lie?
I had a tumor too, you know. But I don't go around telling every person I meet or throwing parties for myself because of it.

Part of me wants to email you back, telling you that yes, I am in Sweden, that our friend is fine and not really having her own real cancer scare, and that all is peachy-keen in this world you left as soon as it started to fall apart.

I knew we'd never see each other again, but I didn't even want to hear from you. Not after all this. Our friend keeps telling me, maybe you'll change and grow up after a while. But to me, you'll always be a bit selfish... you're too devious for me to trust you again, fully. But you'll never see me again, so it doesn't matter. You won't care. I'll just be one of those things you might look back on and think, "Oh, hmmm.. I wonder what happened to her" without feeling regret.
But one day, you'll realize that while you've surrounded yourself with all of these people who you don't really know, you're truly alone.

If you say you are going to call me, then call. If they don't want me, then call and tell me. I am an adult, I can take it.

Stop wasting my time.

I am not proud of you.

I know that you just want to make sure you have the maximum pool of agents to pull from when Chrysler leaves the call center people, and telling the agents that work for them that they're leaving isn't entirely condusive to that, but for the love of god I wish you'd just tell us already...