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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:17 am


Fangmoonlight
Alaois
{For Those that Say you can be Solitary and Wiccan}

read that, it is written up by a 3rd degree elder in Alexandrian (I believe) Wicca


GIVE ME A BOOK BY A REAL PRIESTS NOT SOMEONE ON GAIA! OR BETTER YET LOOK UP SOME REAL WICCAN SITES!


Wicca: a guild for the solitary practitioner by Scott Cunningham is a wonderful book for new and established practitioners of Wicca. Pretty much anything by Scott Cunningham is good.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:22 am


moon_the_angel_of_hell
RavenHawk: (not from gaia)
Smile
Blessings to you.
Yes you can Wiccan without a coven. We call these type of people solitary practioners. I for matter of belong to no coven. I have Bride as patron deity an use Thor or Dagda as a God sometimes. I personally don't believe in the concetp of Lord an Lady in a general sense no. If you are asking can you be christian an still use the structure that Wicca gives you the answer is yes. I know 2 main types of christian groups out there the Rosacrusians an the Kabalists. The Kabala has a very strong christian following. You find that Rosacrusians are deeply involed withe Kabala. It is very good stuff. I once had a student who was catholic based she used the christian God as her patron deity. It didn't bother me any for it was the students deity an not mine an I was about to stop free will. She later went on to study Voodoo an now she works Voodoo. Voodoo an houdou are very christian based they use the saints an everything. If your not christian thats okay I am just talking in general because most people are disgruntled crhistian when they find Wicca. Hey its true I was one of those digrunteled christians. There is two things you need to know about Wiccans. First thing is we respect free will as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else. The one law we all follow is " Do as thou wilt, harm ye none". It is simple an oh so complex. Those simply words define who we are. We are not a faith based "religion" persay. Everything we do follw up with action. It does no good to cast a spell for a job an not to go look. Cast a money spell an not look for away to get it is just silly. If your sick go the doctor faith won't heal yeah but energy an herbs will help you feel better faster. Coomon Sense rules our world. So in one simply word to answer all your questions is YES, YES YOU CAN.


Raven Hawk sounds like a pop-wicca idiot. She has very little authority on wicca in my eyes. And christian wicca is contraditory. You cannot be christian and wiccan for the wiccan religion doesn't believe that Jesus was the son of god and savior of mankind, they don't believe in the devil, and they don't believe in a patriarchal monotheistic religion.

And please, never use a Raven Hawk or Silver Raven Wolf quote again, it's appalling that you know so little about true wiccanism and are just jumping on the pop-culture band wagon.

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Calelith

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:35 pm


6 gun quota
Fangmoonlight
Alaois
{For Those that Say you can be Solitary and Wiccan}

read that, it is written up by a 3rd degree elder in Alexandrian (I believe) Wicca


GIVE ME A BOOK BY A REAL PRIESTS NOT SOMEONE ON GAIA! OR BETTER YET LOOK UP SOME REAL WICCAN SITES!


Wicca: a guild for the solitary practitioner by Scott Cunningham is a wonderful book for new and established practitioners of Wicca. Pretty much anything by Scott Cunningham is good.

Scott Cunningham's Book is no longer considered Wicca. It is now "Standing Stones Tradition" A solitary Witchcraft practice.

You cannot be Solitary and Wiccan.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:47 pm


Calelith
6 gun quota
Fangmoonlight
Alaois
{For Those that Say you can be Solitary and Wiccan}

read that, it is written up by a 3rd degree elder in Alexandrian (I believe) Wicca


GIVE ME A BOOK BY A REAL PRIESTS NOT SOMEONE ON GAIA! OR BETTER YET LOOK UP SOME REAL WICCAN SITES!


Wicca: a guild for the solitary practitioner by Scott Cunningham is a wonderful book for new and established practitioners of Wicca. Pretty much anything by Scott Cunningham is good.

Scott Cunningham's Book is no longer considered Wicca. It is now "Standing Stones Tradition" A solitary Witchcraft practice.

You cannot be Solitary and Wiccan.


I will disagree with that statement. They would've changed the title of the book from Wicca: a guild for the solitary practitioner, to Standing Stones Tradition: a guild to the solitary practitioner. And the Scott Cunningham book that I have was printed in 2008. So, when did the change happen? And the Standing Stones Tradition is the branch of Wicca, not a different religion. Click this link http://13thdruidofavalon.tripod.com/druidplanet/id88.html and scroll down to Standing Stones Tradition. I clearly states that it is a Wiccan Tradition. And while you're at that cite, read the definition of Wicca, it includes the solitary practitioner.

And why can you not be solitary? Tell me why you have to be in a coven to be considered Wiccan?

(Scott Cunningham is still considered to be wiccan. Click this link to read for yourself http://www.controverscial.com/Scott Cunningham.htm )

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Calelith

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:10 pm


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I will disagree with that statement. They would've changed the title of the book from Wicca: a guild for the solitary practitioner, to Standing Stones Tradition: a guild to the solitary practitioner. And the Scott Cunningham book that I have was printed in 2008. So, when did the change happen? And the Standing Stones Tradition is the branch of Wicca, not a different religion. Click this link http://13thdruidofavalon.tripod.com/druidplanet/id88.html and scroll down to Standing Stones Tradition. I clearly states that it is a Wiccan Tradition.


Do you know how hard it is to get the title of a book changed after it has been sold? The only way to get a title properly changed is to do it before it goes to the presses.

...you're using a Tripod website as a source for Standing Stones Tradition being Wiccan? Fail...very massive fail. Anyone can make a tripod website and put whatever they want on that page. Find me a .org (aside from Religious Tolerance because they fail just as much as any other...since they use Celtic Wicca as their base for their Wiccan info)

Out of all the books Cunningham has written, only two have Wicca in it's title.

1988 - Wicca: A Guide for the Solitary Practitioner
and
1993 - Living Wicca: A Further Guide for the Solitary Practitioner

All his other books have either Witchcraft or a different title.

It's a Solitary witchcraft Practice, even Cunningham calls it that. Cunningham isn't even a true Wiccan. He made it to a 1* initiate before leaving and forming his own tradition.

Quote:
And why can you not be solitary? Tell me why you have to be in a coven to be considered Wiccan?


Simple Answer:
You have to be at least 18, initiated into a Lineaged (Through training, not blood) Coven that can be traced back to Gerald Gardner (the one who created Wicca in the 50s).

You have to be 18 because of the sexual rituals/rites and the fact that you perform some rituals in skyclad (or ritualistic nudity).

If you want, you can look back on page two or three for Alaois' info dump posts, it will help answer more questions.

Quote:
(Scott Cunningham is still considered to be wiccan. Click this link to read for yourself http://www.controverscial.com/Scott Cunningham.htm )


He may have been initiated, but that doesn't make him a real Wiccan. He no longer practices Wicca. He changed the rituals, he changed the traditions, and made his own practice.

Edit:
too2sweet

Wiccan traditions are Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Central Valley, Mohesian, Majestic, Kingstone, Silver Crescent, and Daoine Coire.

Basically it is any Trad that can trace lineage to Gerald Gardner (or as A&J defines it... "Wicca" refers specifically to the lineaged, initiatory mystery religion with roots in the New Forest region of Great Britain, manifested today through various "traditions" all linked with a common ancestry back to the New Forest area. "Wiccans" or "The Wica" are the properly lineaged, properly initiated members of those Traditions.)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:15 pm


So, Calelith, he's more of a pagan than a Wiccan is what you're saying, and I consider myself a pagan over Wiccan because I don't follow strict tradition from Gardener. I still think that I should be possible for one to practice on ones own.

I know tripod websites aren't that good, it was the only thing I could find on Standing Stone Tradition that had a definition of it.

Also, how would I find a coven to join? It's hard enough finding other people who think like I do, considering I'm in the middle of red neck territory and everyone around me are either Evangels or Baptists.

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Calelith

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:32 pm


I would say Cunningham is closer to what is considered an Eclectic Neo-Pagan, which most Pagans seem to be. As well as most "Wiccans," specially those that think Wicca is a "Nature based religion."
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:35 pm


Calelith
I would say Cunningham is closer to what is considered an Eclectic Neo-Pagan, which most Pagans seem to be. As well as most "Wiccans," specially those that think Wicca is a "Nature based religion."


From what I've always understood, Wicca was a semi-nature based religion. The four elements, fire, earth, air, and water. However I don't know any coven rituals, because I live in the middle of nowhere where only Evangels and Baptists live. I kind of sucks for me.

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Calelith

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:36 pm


6 gun quota
Calelith
I would say Cunningham is closer to what is considered an Eclectic Neo-Pagan, which most Pagans seem to be. As well as most "Wiccans," specially those that think Wicca is a "Nature based religion."


From what I've always understood, Wicca was a semi-nature based reliegion. The four elements, fire, earth, air, and water. However I don't know any coven rituals, because I live in the middle of nowhere where only Evangels and Baptists live. I kind of sucks for me.

Hmm, let me post a good info Dump for you

Quote:
Morgandria's Info-Dump (initiated Wiccan)
Wicca is:

an Orthopraxic, Oathbound, Initiatory, Mystery-based, Experiential, Coven-based, Fertility-focused, Dithesitic Witch-cult whose members are all Clergy within a Lineaged Tradition.

A mouthful, if there every was one! Let's break it down farther into individual components.

Orthopraxic:
There are two kinds of religion.

One is orthodoxic - meaning 'correct belief'. If you believe the right things, you qualify as a member of that faith.

The second is orthopraxic - literally, this is 'right practice'. If you know the right way to do things within that faith, and you do them, you're a member of that faith.

Wicca is Orthopraxic. What allows a person to qualify as Wiccan is knowing the correct practices: how to use the tools, hw to properly cast and consecrate a circle, how to invoke Deity, etc. If you change any of this orthopraxy far enough from its' core, then it ceases to be Wicca.

Only initiated Wiccans will know this proper practice, because....

Oathbound:
...Wicca is oathbound.

What this means is every person who has become a Wiccan, in the proper way, has sworn an oath never to reveal the orthopraxy of Wicca unless that other person is 'a proper person, properly prepared.' This means, in essence, that a coven will only teach the orthopraxy to those who have been 'properly prepared', ie. have become an initiate, and have sworn the very same oath.

This oath is fearsome. It is not undertaken lightly, and those who break it are cast out and reviled, for good reason. Because of this, even people who choose to leave Wicca, are still expected to uphold this oath.

The oath also means you may not publish Wiccan practices in books, or other media, where it would be viewed by non-initiates.
No book at the bookstore, no website online, has ever had a single scrap of actual Wiccan material.

What you generally see are generic pagan teachings, with a vague Wiccan flavour - we call it 'outer court'. Outer-court teachings vary from coven to coven, but they're the basic info taught to a Seeker as a foundation to learn Wicca on after initiation. It isn't and shouldn't be considered Wicca in and of itself - but it is still useful.

Why do people publish things in the name of Wicca, when it isn't? Simple: money. People want Wicca, so they give them what they want. 9 times out of 10 those people are in no position to realize they've been misinformed or misled.

Initiation, Mystery-based, and Experiential:
We'll tackle these three together.

Initiation is VERY important in Wicca. Without this event - without experiencing this ritual - you'll never fully understand Wicca, even if you were to somehow gain access to Wiccan material without being an initiate. Without initiation, you have no access to the Mysteries.

Mystery-based paths have existed for thousands of years. A Mystery is just an experience that changes your perception and understanding of events and objects and energies - and there are plenty out there that are easily available to everyone. A Mystery is always the same event: what varies is how an individual experiences them. Even experiencing a sunset will be a different Mystery every time, depending on environmental conditions, season, location, and the person themselves.

Some Mysteries, however, are shaped and built around specific events, to build a consistent framework for the experience - historically, the Eleunesian Mysteries come to mind. The Wiccan Mysteries are the same way. The ritual, done properly, by people qualified to perform it, builds this framework. Each initiate will have a slightly different experience - but the Mysteries themselves are the same, inside that framework. Obviously, if you change the framework, you will access Mysteries, but they will not be the Wiccan Mysteries.

Without experiecing the Wiccan Mysteries properly, you will always lack the proper context to understand the orthopraxy of Wicca. It's why you can't be a Wiccan alone, you can't teach yourself, and you can't learn it from a book or online. Without that initiatory experience of the proper Mysteries, you're lacking a key that will allow you to unlock the meaning and understanding of the rituals practiced by Wiccans.

Initiation is always practiced cross-gender. A woman is initiated by a man, and a man by a woman. If you run across someone who says they were initiated by someone of the same sex as them, it was not a valid Wiccan initiation.

Coven-based:
One can't be a Wiccan alone. Aside from the fact that one can't self-initiate...

The rites of Wicca, recorded in the Book of Shadows each coven keeps a hand-copied version of, basically define what Wicca is. These rites were never meant to be practiced alone. They're based on having a full coven of initiates to perform properly.

Solitary Wiccans really don't exist. You can have initiated Wiccans who are unable to practice with their covens: they moved, they're away, they got sick, etc. But what they do on their own is neo-pagan witchcraft, heavily flavoured by Wicca, performed by a Wiccan - it's not proper Wiccan practice.

And finding an actual, lineaged coven (we'll talk about lineage later) can be a lot of work - travel, time, money, energy. And those sacrifices to attend a group are expected. It's considered normal. People who complain about not finding a coven in their area so they can learn properly, are typically looked at with some disdain, especially by those Wiccans who travel considerable lengths to their own covens.

Fertility-focused:

Wicca is a fertility cult. It's not a Nature cult, or an 'earth-based' path. We don't worship Nature. We honour fertility! Fertility is one specific aspect of Nature; so while we may see and appreciate fertility reflected in the cycles of Nature.

And naturally, fertility means sex. It's very difficult to have one without the other. Wicca does contain sexual context, and activity, within its' rites. Many people assume that means actual intercourse, but there are many levels of sexual activity - and indeed, a non-Wiccan would probably miss some of the sexual nature that Wiccan ritual contains (even in an outer-court situation), because it can be incredibly subtle, or easily overlooked if you're lacking the contextual knowledge initiates have.

Wicca is not a good faith for anyone who has issues being openly sexual with other people. Wicca's sexual basis is also why Wicca does not initiate minors - and in fact refuses to even start teaching the basics to a person until they are 18. This is not open to interpretation or debate: it is a part of the laws of the Wica, which are known as the Ardanes.

Ditheistic:

Wiccans believe in a pair of deities, a God and a Goddess. Wicca is, contrary to many depictions, a hard polytheistic religion. Wiccans believe that their gods are distinct and individual - not facets or aspects of an overarching, singular God or Goddess. Their actual names are oathbound. They are not archetypes, though - they are a specific God and Goddess. The terms 'Lord' and 'Lady' are simply honorifics - used to refer to the Gods of the Wica around non-initiates without breaking ones' oaths, not to indicate that they are soft-polytheistic in Nature.

The Wiccan gods do not mind if a Wiccan has existing relationships with deities from pantheons outside the faith. But one cannot use whatever pantheon they like in the place of the Lord and Lady - it alters the orthopraxy too much. So things like "Celtic Wicca", or "Norse Wicca", or "Egyptian Wicca"...just aren't Wicca at all.

Witch-cult:

All Wiccans are also witches. Nothing too scary in that. 'Cult' simply means religion, in this instance.

Clergy:

All Wiccans are initiated priesthood of the Lord and Lady. There is no exception to this. Once you are an initiate, you are their priest or priestess. It is a HUGE, life-long commitment, and an event that completely changes you. Becoming an initiate doesn't make you part of the 'cool kids', or some sort of clique. It's not a mark of status, or some kind of diploma - being a Wiccan initiate is a full-time job. It turns your life upside for a while. It creates a lot of extra work and responsibilities for you - The Gods will have their own needs, but so will the people around you. You get those late night calls from coveners whose lives are coming apart and need advise, or help, or a listening ear. You're there when someone dies, and people need help. You're there to teach new Seekers, and guide them into the path.

Frankly, a teenager isn't ready for this level of committment or change. Frequently folks in their twenties aren't either. You need to have a stable life, under your own authority, and being responsible for your own self. This is on all levels - mental, physical, and emotional. The changes initiation brings will rock the foundation of a person's life - and if that life is already in change, or flux, then it's disastrous.

Finally...

Lineaged Tradition

Wicca was founded by a man by the name of Gerald Gardner, somewhere between the late 1930's and the mid 1940's. Gardner was an initiate of a coven in an older, extant witch-cult - the New Forest Coven. He wished to preserve aspects of this witch-cult, and mixed in parts and practices from other faiths as he saw fit. and created what we call Wicca. Gardner himself was the first to use the word 'Wicca', although there are similar words from older languages.

Thus was born the Gardnerian Tradition of Wicca - the very first tradition of Wicca, and one that is still going strong today.

Other traditions were born out of this first one, each defined by its' own particular quirks or flavour, and yet also defined by the fact that they retained the orthopraxy of the Wiccan faith in their practice, and that their initiatory lineage links them back to Gardner.

That being said, there aren't as many traditions in existence as there claims to be. Legitimate forms of Wicca are: Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Mohsian, Central Valley, Silver Crescent, Kingstone, Daoine Coire, Assembly of Wicca, and Majestic. Some Blue Star and Georgian covens may have lineage as well, but it depends on the priesthood and elders of each individual lines of initiates. This group of traditions is collectively known as British Traditional Wicca, and they are the only legitimately Wiccan traditions. Traditions outside this grouping may not maintain the full orthopraxy of Wicca.

Initiatory Lineage is very important. It is how Wiccans are able to determine if someone is legitimately a Wiccan, or not. Remember back when I was talking about cross-gendered initiation (man to woman, woman to man)? If a person was initiated by the same sex, or they cannot trace their lineage to Gardner-

Example: Lord Y was initiated by Lady X. Lady X was initated by Lord V. Lord V was initiated by Lady T. Lady T was initiated by Gerald Gardner

- then a person cannot legitimately claim to be Wiccan, and any person they initiate likewise cannot claim to be Wiccan. It's really that simple. It's not a blood lineage, either - you do not have to be related to Gardner by blood, and the idea of families passing on Wiccan initiation amongst its' members violates the Ardanes, the laws of Wicca.

Some people complain, as I mentioned before, that it's difficult to find lineaged groups - that they have no choice but to learn from books or online or people who aren't initiates. It's true. It can be a real search - for the simple reason that Wicca is not for everyone. It isn't interested in numbers, or reaching everyone; there are built-in quality controls.

Wicca's membership are specifically called by the Gods of Wicca to be priesthood - a role not every person interested in Wicca is qualified for. Those who are legitimately called end up finding a coven and becoming initiates, no matter the cost or effort. There are plenty of other paths available under the pagan umbrella that will better suit the people who don't. Unfortuntely Wicca is popular, and better known than other pagan religions, and people become fixated on it and nothing else...which leads to many of the problems I've already mentioned.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:44 pm


So, how would I find myself a coven in which to be initiated? I mean, it's hard for someone in the middle of hickville U.S.A. to find a coven.

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Calelith

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:51 pm


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So, how would I find myself a coven in which to be initiated? I mean, it's hard for someone in the middle of hickville U.S.A. to find a coven.

It can take years to find a Coven. One guy, BTW Seeket, searched for 20 years before he found the right coven for him.

You may find a coven, but that doesn't mean your right for them or they are right for you.

{Amber and Jet} is a good place to start. Join their mailing list (the yahoo group) and go from there. It's also a good way to find out if someone is truly a lineaged Wiccan or just one of several things:
- Liar
- misinformed
- fluffy bunny
- in a none lineaged group
- or another thing.

Like I posted a few posts ago, there are only a few traditions that are able to trace lineage back to Gardner, one of those in his coven, or the New Forest Coven, where Gardner got his start.

They are:
- Gardnerian
- Alexandrian
- Central Valley
- Mohesian
- Majestic
- Kingstone
- Silver Crescent
and
- Daoine Coire

I'm not too sure about Majestic, but it has been said they are a Lineaged Coven.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:13 pm


Hi, I decided to put my two cents into this conversation. I have been studying Wicca a little and here is what I have to add.

There are different branches of Wicca, Gardnerian Wicca, Alexandrian Wicca, Dianic Wicca, Celtic Wicca (Church of Wicca), Georgian Wicca, Discordianism (Erisian) and Stregheria.
http://www.pagans.org/wicca/branches/branches.html

Two other sites I found that have great information are:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcra.htm
http://www.wicca.org/
These two sites also say straight out that you can be a solitary or in a group.

Anyway my main point is there are different branches of Wicca not just Garderian. Recently I was taking classes on Wicca (been too busy lately, but I will continue later since I'm very interested in it still).

Pumona


Calelith

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:21 pm


Did you miss my post before yours? I listed all the lineaged Wiccan traditions.

- Celtic Wicca isn't Wicca, it never was Wicca.
- Dianic is no longer Wicca, it's mainly all females that worship only the Lady. In Wicca you have to worship both the Lord and Lady of the Lake.
- Georgian doesn't uphold the original traditions
- Erisian isn't Wicca nor was it ever
- Stregheria predates Wicca so it isn't Wicca.

Pagans.org is misinformed
Religioustolerance.org is pure fluffybunnyism
Wicca.org is completely wrong.

You cannot be Wiccan and solitary.
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